TWiT 257/Transcript

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Episode 257


This transcript is provided by our friends at Pods in Print

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This is TWiT: this WEEK in TECH, episode 257, recorded July 18, 2010: Smell Like Your Grandpa.

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It’s time for TWiT: this WEEK in TECH, the show that covers the week’s tech news with the ink-stained wretches of the new media starting with a man we haven’t seen in ages. I think you’ve lost weight since you’ve been on the show, John C. Dvorak.

John C. Dvorak I think there is something wrong with the camera.

Leo Laporte You said I look younger with the new lighting, you look thinner; you look fantastic.

John C. Dvorak I think there is something wrong with the camera. I think I am squished. I think it’s you.

Steve Gibson Probably the aspect ratio there.

Leo Laporte Maybe it’s me, maybe it could – maybe I’ve squished you. Let me ask you this and I hope you won’t take this the wrong way.

John C. Dvorak I’ve taken it the wrong way already.

Leo Laporte Are you anamorphic?

John C. Dvorak What does that even mean?

Leo Laporte No, you’re definitely not anamorphic.

John C. Dvorak There it goes.

Leo Laporte Also here, yeah you heard him, Steve Gibson’s back. We are so glad to have him.

John C. Dvorak Hey, Gibbo.

Leo Laporte Hey, Gibbo.

Steve Gibson Gibby, yeah.

Leo Laporte Gibson is the guy in charge at He makes SpinRite and has been in this business for longer than mud. He was on our – and I – we really wanted to get you on it too John on our grey hair edition of TWiT couple of weeks back.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, I missed out on that. I think I was traveling or something. That would have been a good one for me, because I think you had Jerry on.

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Leo Laporte Pournelle?

Leo Laporte No hair edition. Also here we got a youngster, a young man, Anand Shimpi who started covering technology when he was in high school with a site that has become now the site to read if you want hardcore hardware news at Anand great to see you once again.

Anand Shimpi Thank you, sir. Thanks for having me.

Leo Laporte Thanks for joining us. Big story today and really the big story of the week and for the last couple of weeks is the antenna story on the iPhone 4. And Anand you guys did a great job. We referred you a number of times last week and the week before with your coverage partly because you and Brian were able to hack the iPhone 4 a little bit and give us some actual readings.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, that was actually key to all of this, because you’ll actually even notice in Apple’s press conference when they presented data they still presented it in digital bar format which is just, that doesn’t actually tell you anything, right. Like it’s not comparable between phones and luckily when the minute Brian got his phone he was like, hey, I bet you I know how to – how to enable numeric readouts and signal strength and that’s really what set it off.

Leo Laporte Well, how did he do that because one of the things and I thought this was kind of a smoking gun that Apple did in iOS 4 is they took out the diagnostic mode that allowed you to see exactly what kind of signal you were getting?

Anand Shimpi Yeah, so they pulled out field test and --

Leo Laporte Why would you do that unless you thought the numbers were going to very positive?

Anand Shimpi Yeah, I mean I don’t like to go down the conspiracy theory simply because there are a lot of things that, you know, it can go both ways, right. But whatever, they pulled it out. Luckily Brian Klug our senior smartphone guy, he actually had quite a bit of experience with iOS, how it stores data and with jailbreaking these things. And he found that if you – it actually stores the configuration of that little status bar, that little status area when you back up your phone, so he thought, well, if I have a phone where I have this enabled on iOS 32 and I’d use that backup once I put iOS 4 or once I get an iPhone 4 and then I restore that backup on there, maybe it’ll preserve that setting and thankfully and luckily enough it actually does and Apple hasn’t even pulled that out in 4.01 or 4.1 either. So we and we for sure thought that they were going to pull that out as soon as we published how to do it, but no it’s still there. So that actually helped us tremendously.

Leo Laporte In your follow-up as well because you were able to go back and see how 4.01 which Apple released last week modified things and you have a great graph that shows the new way of measuring bars. It looks like they increased the dynamic range of the bars.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, so a couple things we noticed, Brian again was actually the first to pick this out. One, you get more values, right. So for example, on prior to 4.01 and 4.1, you might see negative 113 dB and then negative 100 dB, right. You might, there are a bunch of values in there that you would never see and with 4.01 and 4.1 you actually you just see a lot more numbers and that actually helps and really tell you what’s going on here.

Leo Laporte This is the graph that is very telling that shows movement from 4 to 4.01 in the signal mapping and --

Anand Shimpi Yeah, so that was actually sent in by a reader of ours. We were working with them behind the scenes and he was like, hey, I put this together and maybe it will help your readers and then I sent him the data we got off of 4.01 and he just made a new one there and then the one below that actually shows, it’s something we made and that shows comparison between 4.01 and android. So you can really see that Apple is being a lot more honest with how signal strength is reported now, which is impressive. We have to give them credit for that. They are doing the right thing there.

Leo Laporte It’s almost linear now instead of logarithmic which it traditionally is logarithmic, but even more interesting instead of going down to 113 dB below, it goes all the way down to 121. In other words you will still get a bar even if you have got almost no signal at all.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, and it really shows the, it’s designed to show the improved sensitivity of the iPhone 4 wireless platform in general, right. So antenna, base band radio, power amps the whole deal, it actually does a really, really good job down at 115, negative 115, negative 120, 12121.

Leo Laporte When we were talking about this, Steve with Jerry Pournelle he made a point which I thought and I echoed several times was really great, which is these are digital phones and if it doesn’t work, if you don’t have enough signal it doesn’t work, if you do it does, it’s really a binary situation, what do you need bars for, and I got a very interesting email from a BBC satellite engineer, Dave in Northolt, London which I thought, and he called me out on this. He says I keep hearing you say get rid of the bar, show a binary you can make calls light. As a broadcast satellite engineer I completely disagree, the phone channel is very much like the satellite signals I deal with everyday. The satellite downlinks include forward error correction. The receiver puts the signal back together and either decodes pictures or shows nothing like the phone and it’s binary in the sense that it works or it doesn’t work, however, when it’s working it’s able to tell you how hard the error correction is working. If it says it’s not having to work hard then we know we can take say 10 dBs of [indiscernible] (08:29) before we lose the signals being broadcast. If it says it’s near the edge of failure then we know if there is a thunderstorm we are going to get a five minute outage in transmission instead of a 10-second outage.

Steve Gibson And, you know, one of the other things that we know is that cell phones do dynamically scale their own power output as a function of the received power from the local cell tower. So if you have a weaker signal you tend to drain your battery faster because the cell phone ramps up --

Leo Laporte Working harder.

Steve Gibson Output power in order to compensate for the fact that it’s got a weaker incoming signal.

Leo Laporte So the idea of just having an on off light is probably not good. I mean it’s not enough. The bars do actually have some value. You agree Anand?

Anand Shimpi Yeah, I mean it’s more of a – I actually agree with the engineer that sent in that email, it’s actually more of a predictive visualization, right. It tells you the likelihood that something bad is going to happen or that you’ll not be able to continue the call. And it’s actually one of the reasons why there is so much of an issue with this antenna bridging or attenuation problem, because it really interferes with the predictive nature of that visualization. It’s no longer a prediction right; there is this new variable in play, or at least more of an existing variable in play.

Steve Gibson The other problem too is that our head and holding it next to our head is going to change the reception and so, you are not actually looking at the bars while you are talking, you pull it away from yourself, there is a delay in the bars updating, but that’s also one of the things this changing is how close it is to you --

Leo Laporte I talked to an antenna engineer in the radio show today. He’s – I asked him is it a bad design decision to put the antenna external on the phone? He said it’s a bad design decision like say putting square wheels on a car would be a bad design decision.

Anand Shimpi Yeah.

Leo Laporte He said, well, two things are happening here. By touching the antenna, you’re detuning it. You’re giving it – you’re op – antennas are optimized for a wavelength. Your finger changes the wavelength it’s optimized for. You’re detuning it. He says your – the meat of your hand is also attenuating the signals, weakening it. So those two things together really cause the antenna to do a much worse job. But Anand it sounded like your findings were that the iPhone 4 is still better than previous iPhones.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, and here’s the problem, right? So I don’t like to do a lot of armchair engineering because I knew these projects – even the iPhone 4…

Leo Laporte They had cots. They had cots in there. They were there all night. There were people in the parking like a 3:00 a.m. and they were shocked --

Anand Shimpi Well, I mean the --

Leo Laporte When they found out that the bar --

Anand Shimpi Their worst engineer is still a lot better than me, right?

Leo Laporte No.

Anand Shimpi So I got to give credits due – and I’ll tell you the way I look at it. There are definitely some areas where especially in situations where there’s very, very limited signal or very, very low signal strength, the iPhone 4 does very, very well. This I would say is more of an annoying design decision or an annoying problem than anything else.

Leo Laporte But now here’s where John C. Dvorak gets involved because John you and I are media guys. And the first thing Steve Jobs does, he comes out on the stage and he says, he starts blaming the media. He calls it antenna gig. He says the return rate on the iPhone 4 is far lower than it was in the 3GS this time last year. We only --

John C. Dvorak That’s true, nobody’s returning them.

Leo Laporte Nobody’s returning – we only drop one more call per 100 than the iPhone 3GS did. He said there is no problem here, the media made the problem. This sounds to me almost Nixonian, John.

John C. Dvorak It was weird. A lot of people are wondering what if he’s losing his marbles. I mean for one thing the media is the one that made this phone such a massive success in the first place because of all the planted stories. And so then they blame the media for – somebody just questioning the situation that we’re talking about, the phone, the antenna attenuation is – it’s almost ludicrous I think – I don’t think he should have done that. I think it made him look like an idiot.

Leo Laporte He also, again in a very Nixonian way, said, well, other phones have those problems, it’s not just our phone.

John C. Dvorak In that voice too, I understand.

Leo Laporte Yeah. I have a dog named Checkers. I have a good cloth coat and the media are the problem here.

Anand Shimpi Well, I would argue that there were some issues that were caused by the media. I mean it was a general lack of understanding of the problem.

Leo Laporte Really? Really Anand? Really you think that we caused the problem?

Anand Shimpi No, no, no, well, Leo, I’m not saying you caused the problem but I’m saying this, when we published our review, right? We went into it and we said, look here’s the situation, it does drop more than other phones. It is something that impacts all phones and you can reduce it by potentially coating the stainless steel with something and it’s design decision Apple would have to make or you just put a case on it, right? And that was it. That’s all that needed to be said.

Leo Laporte He also blamed us for not buying more cases. If you’d just bought more cases, this won’t be a problem. I’m sorry.

Anand Shimpi And I think the problem isn’t entirely how it’s handled in the media, right? It was also an issue of how Apple handled it, right? They weren’t forthcoming with this and on top of that even when they said that they were forthcoming with it in the press conference, they still really weren’t, right? Like it’s a downside the way Apple conducts its secret projects unfortunately right now. But yeah, I think this did point out that this whole education to entertainment way of reporting news – it’s not – we’re heading down a path that’s not necessarily any better than where cable TV news has taken us. And I do think he is right, I think he is fair in saying that look some of the media reports really criticize this the wrong way. And I do think there are a lot of and there was a lot of fair handling of it.

John C. Dvorak Well, what was the – what media report specifically you’re talking about that handled this in some unfair way, specifically?

Anand Shimpi Well, if you look at – and it’s not my job to kind of throw my peers under the bus and I’ve never felt comfortable doing that because everyone does a good job at what they do and everyone has their own --

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s a lie. Come on Anand, say it.

Anand Shimpi No, it’s --

Leo Laporte Say it.

John C. Dvorak I think do you really have anybody in mind that…?

Leo Laporte Some people don’t do a good job, Anand.

Anand Shimpi Everyone has their own justifications for doing what they do. And in my opinion, the problems I had were --

John C. Dvorak He’s just weaseling out of the question.

Leo Laporte So, who – John, you answer it then. Who did a crappy job --

John C. Dvorak I think everybody did a fine job, what job was there to do? People were holding the phone, they couldn’t get a signal and they bitched about it.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak I mean they weren’t…

Anand Shimpi Well, no, no, no, and that part was fine, right? The issue was characterizing in this light of hey, it might be a phone-by-phone issue, right? Especially when the hard facts and the evidence were out there, we published numbers, right? We published numbers, we told people how to find – how to prove the numbers for themselves and we said this is the story and what continued to perpetuate was this idea that hey, we might need a recall, we might need the – this might be on a phone-by-phone basis and all of that, in my opinion, didn’t actually serve any real purpose, right? We established from the very start this is a physical problem like this is an issue with physics. There’s no getting around it. If want to get around it, Apple would either have to --

John C. Dvorak I don’t think anybody was arguing any differently. I think the pundits who came out and said, “oh! There’s going to be a recall”. I think that’s still a valid possibility because the phone is actually defective the way it’s made and sure they’re going to give everybody a free cover now but the fact of the matter is I don’t think that anybody was unjustified in this particular complaints --

Anand Shimpi If there was --

John C. Dvorak And yeah, I would also say that not everybody reads your report – I mean if everybody read your report, they’d be a little more knowledgeable.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak I’m not going to argue against that idea. But I don’t think it was that crazy.

Leo Laporte The consumer reports misstated or was their testing flawed, Anand, what do you think?

Anand Shimpi No, no, I mean, I think it seems like their testing echoed our testing which is fine.

Leo Laporte Right.

Anand Shimpi And it’s up to that publication whether or not they feel that that’s grounds for not recommending it.

Leo Laporte Right.

Anand Shimpi Ultimately from my standpoint, it was a combination of – look this is the design decision, these are the design decisions that Apple made. You have to take that into account with how good your AT&T reception is and if the combination of the two is bad, maybe you shouldn’t keep the phone, right? But it’s really --.

Leo Laporte That’s what I will say. That’s my recommendation is. And by the way I think that what has happened here is good because there are choices now. For three years I put up with really, frankly bad AT&T service just where I live, I’m not saying everywhere – where I live, where I work.

John C. Dvorak Oh! It’s terrible in San Francisco.

Leo Laporte In San Francisco, it’s bad. So I put up with it because there was no choice. That was the iPhone AT&T. That was the nexus you had to do that. As soon as great phones have come out on every carrier now and I’m carrying a Droid X now from, which I love from Verizon. And it’s like I’m saying, oh! my God. Why should – why was I putting up with AT&T?

John C. Dvorak That’s because you’re using it as a phone.

Leo Laporte Well, I know but it is a phone, John.

John C. Dvorak Well, I am telling you the whole – the iPhone phenomenon is more of a – I wouldn’t call it a cult but I call it an environment that is completely takes care of its users, it’s a totally different animal than any other phone and I think it has to be recognized as such, and that’s why everybody --

Leo Laporte But not anymore.

John C. Dvorak And this is why I don’t – I disagree and this is why I think that yeah, I would say maybe Anand was right. It’s – was blown out of proportion a little bit because people kept talking about it for day after day after day. I’ve never seen so much stupid reporting and so I’ll agree with that. But at the same time when you create an environment that’s like Facebook that leaves – it’s kind of its own animal and something is – in it’s injured, people are going to get all worked up about it and I don’t think you can criticize them for doing so.

Leo Laporte So you’re saying Apple is hoist by its own petard.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, I guess.

Anand Shimpi I mean – I would argue that obviously Leo you like your Droid X, I think Android is just as capable with the platform.

Leo Laporte I do. Absolutely.

Anand Shimpi The difference here is really a matter of aesthetics and polish, right? Apple puts a lot of focus on making sure the iPhone works like an appliance and with Google you have more of like a portable computer. And for some people clearly a lot of iOS and iPhone fans and for some people that’s exactly what they want. And for others there are a lot of Android devices sold. I think I agree with Leo this – it’s a good thing to have this kind of choice and the network isn’t bad for everyone. Right?

Leo Laporte That’s what’s changed is now, you chose the network that works best first. You chose – to me what’s changed is --

John C. Dvorak So Leo, let’s get this straight. Let’s stop. So tomorrow iPhone and actually this probably will happen by March. iPhone is on Verizon. Will you – does that change every – your entire perspective?

Leo Laporte No, because – no because. Well, first of all it’d make a lot of people happy because a lot of people have been waiting for that day. Maybe it would – at least it gives you a choice. My point is you should do what we’ve done for years until 2007 and the iPhone came out is choose a carrier. First, who has the best signal where I use the phone then what’s the best phone from that carrier. The iPhone flipped it on its head, you chose the iPhone and then you were stuck with the carrier. That’s what changed and it only changed for a couple of years and I think that window has now closed on that. I think you can – and that’s, to Apple’s detriment --

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte What it means its competition, but now you choose the carrier and then you choose the phone.

Steve Gibson I think the position that Apple’s in is one of having inertia now, because they were first and had essentially the – this whole sort of a high end smartphone market to themselves for so long. But with Android, this really – I mean it’s a game changer, we’re not going to see it overnight. But over time, I think it certainly will happen. And I read that AT&T exclusivity wasn’t expiring until 2011, despite the fact that Bloomberg has said that they expect to see it on Verizon next year.

John C. Dvorak Well, next year is 2011, hello?

Leo Laporte Congratulations!

Steve Gibson What year is this?

Leo Laporte By the way, we want to welcome, Lisa Bettany has joined us…

Lisa Bettany Hi.

Leo Laporte Lisa Bettany is the mostlylisa blogger, and it’s great to see you.

Lisa Bettany Can I blame Canada?

Leo Laporte Blame Canada? Sure, why not. You come from Canada?

Lisa Bettany Well, it felt like it. The traffic, what is with this traffic?!

Leo Laporte Welcome to the San Francisco Bay Area.

John C. Dvorak Was there an event over there today?

Leo Laporte No, it’s toil drive, I think is what bit you, right? Over by the Golden Gate Bridge, all that construction?

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Anyway, it’s nice to have you, welcome. We’re talking about the iPhone and Antennagate as – by the way Sparky and Corona keeps correcting me in the chatroom, apparently Computer World was the first to call it Antennagate. But Steve Jobs picked it up. That doesn’t make him any less Nixonian. The Wall Street Journal coined the term Watergate. ‘You can still say I’m not a crook.’

Steve Gibson I guess the one thing that we haven’t looked at, and I know I respect Anand’s decision not to be conspiracy-oriented. But doesn’t it really seem to be the case that Apple did get caught fudging the algorithm for its bars? This idea that they were shocked that this formula was wrong. I mean the fact is, the formula that they originally had ended up showing many more bars for their normal range of signal strength compared to – first of all, what it is now, and also what other phones were doing.

So from a marketing standpoint, you – given the same amount of receive signal strength by the iPhone, traditionally, with the equation that they had that someone deliberately set the parameters to somewhere, it looked better than other phones.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, that was cheating. That was a dirty thing to do.

Leo Laporte That really was.

Anand Shimpi But everyone does that, right? So if you look at that graph that we just showed, the one at the bottom of the page that Leo had up on the screen. Apple’s – I mean they’re definitely worse if you look at 4.0 versus 2.2 and the Nexus One. But they’re not that much worse, right? Every – all cell phone companies lie about this. It’s just that Apple now had a situation where the signal would drop more than their competitors and that kind of exposed this as a problem. But everyone does this, right? Now Apple corrected it and they corrected it pretty quickly. And now they’re actually more honest than a lot of…

Leo Laporte So now you can say the bars on the iPhone are the best bars in the business. Well – and Apple did say that…

Anand Shimpi We’ll see if I have the testing- yeah.

Steve Gibson Yeah. Apple did say that they were using AT&T’s approved formula for showing the number of bars.

Leo Laporte I think what they said was, ‘we used our own formula, but now we’re going to start using AT&T’s new formula.’

Steve Gibson Right, now they’re going to use…

Leo Laporte I think the implication was they used AT&T’s old formula. But I don’t know if they said that. There’s a lot – I don’t want to spend the rest of the day talking about this – but there’s a lot of stuff to analyze in here. For instance, Steve Jobs just pointed out that maybe they didn’t notice this because – well, he didn’t say it quite like that. But he said, a reporter said, how come I’m not dropping bars on my Blackberry now? And Steve said [Laughter] he said, ‘well, because we have an AT&T tower on our campus.’ But he also threw a ‘and a Verizon tower on our campus.’ Which I thought was kind of gratuitous.

John C. Dvorak You know what’s overlooked in this entire story which kind of fascinates me?

Leo Laporte What?

John C. Dvorak Is, nobody talks about the manufacturer of this phone. It’s not Apple sitting over there in Cupertino cranking these things out.

Leo Laporte Let’s blame Foxconn!

John C. Dvorak It’s Foxconn.

Leo Laporte You think it’s their fault?

John C. Dvorak Well, I’m wondering about it.

Leo Laporte It’s designed in California, made in China.

John C. Dvorak I think the basic functionality is designed in California and the components are picked in California. But when these guys are given a design and Steve says, ‘I want it like this, I want this thing around the outside, I want a flat screen, I want a flat back, I want this kind of glass, I want you to do it this way,’ they’re the ones who have to put – they’re the one who have to micro-engineer where everything goes so it fits in the phone that Steve wants. They’re the ones who had to put this antenna on there…

Steve Gibson Except that – I think it really does matter. I think it really does matter that, as Leo points out, there is an AT&T and a Verizon cell tower on the Apple campus. So they’re all being irradiated by these particular carriers. And I mean you could probably hold this thing any way you wanted to when you’re standing in the shadow of the cell tower and never lose any bars.

Leo Laporte Good point, you couldn’t make it fail. One of the reasons I have shifted away from iPhone – I used it for a long time – is because I finally dropped four or five calls in a two-day period last Friday. And I said, I’m sorry – I just – this is a phone for me, I need it to be a phone. I got the Droid X, and boy, I love the Droid X.

Steve Gibson And you have a good alternative now.

Leo Laporte Yes, and that’s the point, is we do now have an alternative. And that’s really – that’s the good news around all this entirely.

Anand Shimpi Well, you know I don’t think it’s fair to assume – and again, I don’t like going down the conspiracy theory or the speculation ramp here – I don’t think it’s fair to assume that they didn’t test this thing in both signal strength. I think they came out and made the statement that look, it gets the best reception than the previous iPhone. And clearly, they tested this in all kinds of environments, more than we ever had, more than anyone else ever had. I think this was just a conscious decision. They knew this trade-off was there.

And they’re on this yearly cadence, right? So if you look at any company that has to produce a product every 6 months, 12 months, 24 months, whatever, you do make sacrifices in order to maintain that cadence. We see it with chip companies every time, we see it in all kinds of products.

So it’s not surprising to me that – look, if Apple discovered this and they were like, look, we have to ship this thing in X number of months, usually when you come to the end of a project like this, you have a list of things that you want fixed but you just couldn’t get them into schedule without slipping it. So they just get kind of rolled up and put into the next phone.

Steve Gibson I think we do know also though that Steve Jobs loves the design of this phone, and against some objections in Apple engineering, he said no, this is the way it’s going to be.

Leo Laporte They asked him that at the press conference, that was a Bloomberg report, he said it was B.S. He said it was B.S., now…

John C. Dvorak He doesn’t like the design of the phone, is that you’re saying?

Leo Laporte No – well, no, that’s a good question, though. I think what he was saying was, we didn’t – we didn’t – I think what Steve was saying very clearly is, we didn’t think there was anything wrong with it. And we still don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

Steve Gibson He has to say that now.

Leo Laporte We think it’s just like every other smartphone, but okay, if you think there’s something wrong with it, we love you, you’re the customer, so we’re going to give you a free bumper case.

Anand Shimpi And that’s my issue, there, right? So is technically – it loses more signal than at least its primary competitors. And that’s the only part of what he had said that is not totally true.

Leo Laporte Oh, let me tell you, the RIM guy was pissed. The Nokia guys were pissed. They said ‘what are you talking about? We don’t have the same problem! This is a unique problem for the iPhone 4.’ You agree?

Anand Shimpi No, it’s not a unique problem for the iPhone 4, as we demonstrated, as everyone’s demonstrated, all phones will drop signal depending on how you hold it. What is unique to the 4 is that it drops more signal, right? So we measured something like 16 to 17 DB on the iPhone 3GS and Nexus One, and then the 4 drops like 24 DB, right? So that’s a measurable difference. That part alone, the fact that it drops more than the competition, is what’s unique to the 4.

John C. Dvorak I think we’re starting to repeat ourselves on this topic.

Leo Laporte Oh no, I got lots more to say.

Steve Gibson If you wear your antenna on your sleeve, that’s what going to happen.

Lisa Bettany Can I interject for once?

Leo Laporte Please, Lisa. please, some sanity. Inject some sanity into this.

Lisa Bettany Okay, so there’s all these technical issues. But I mean, what does it boil down to for the actual customers that bought the iPhone 4? Because I’ve talked to a lot of them, and it doesn’t even matter to them. People who bought the iPhone…

Leo Laporte They seem not to care – some do. I care.

Lisa Bettany You care?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but you don’t even like the phone, Leo. You hate Apple because they won’t invite you to events. Let’s get that out there.

Leo Laporte All right, it’s true, John, it’s true! No, no. I do like the phone. I think it’s looking a little antiquated compared to Android, but it’s still a great phone.

Lisa Bettany Right.

Anand Shimpi Honestly, when you look at – okay, to answer your question, how does it – what does it mean to end users. Like I said, it’s really a combination of what’s AT&T’s network like where you use the phone.

Leo Laporte That’s exactly…

Anand Shimpi If it’s borderline, if there’s a good chance that you don’t have good signal to begin with?

Leo Laporte Exactly right.

Anand Shimpi This is probably not a good phone for you.

Leo Laporte Do you think Lisa there are people who have iPhones are willing to put up with crappy service?

Lisa Bettany Yes.

Leo Laporte That’s what you’re saying, isn’t it?

Lisa Bettany Yeah I mean…

John C. Dvorak I agree with Lisa.

Lisa Bettany I mean, I wouldn’t call – I mean – I guess, yes, I’m an Apple fan girl.

Leo Laporte But you sit in front of a 3GS, not an iPhone 4, by the way.

Lisa Bettany Well, yes, because mine’s in the mail. But I’ve been testing online all week. And I mean for me, obviously, the camera really matters, the HD video really matters. But ultimately, when you subscribe to Apple and you have all Apple products, it doesn’t even matter. And that’s a sad thing, but to me, it doesn’t even matter.

John C. Dvorak That’s sad.

Lisa Bettany It is sad. But I’ve been talking to people, people that love the iPhone, they don’t care.

Leo Laporte Jean Louis Gassee, who may you might say have an axe to grind, he was a Vice President at Apple under Steve Jobs. He was there for a long time after Jobs left. He started BeOS. And now he blogs, and I think he actually does a great blog at

And he says Apple mishandled this. He says, Antennagate: If you can’t fix it, feature it. And don’t diss your customer or the media. He said, Apple basically decided it’s not a bug, it’s a feature. He says, yes, it’s a well known problem. But he says this is science fiction.

John C. Dvorak I think we beat this up to death already, Leo. Those things he just said, we just said.

Leo Laporte He says the customer complaint dialogue is structured around a two-position toggle. It’s terrible, or it’s nothing. And it’s not terrible, and it’s not nothing. It’s kind of in the middle. I mean – and as you said, Anand, if your signal is good then live with – and you like the phone that’s fine. And if your signal’s bad and you want a phone that works, then there are other choices. Okay. Now I am going to drop it. John?

John C. Dvorak Now let’s talk about Nokia suing Apple.

Leo Laporte What are they suing Apple about?

John C. Dvorak A bunch of patent suits.

Leo Laporte Oh, everybody – Apple’s suing everybody, everybody’s suing Apple.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, I know. But Nokia has got a pretty good case.

Leo Laporte Really?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte All right. We’re quickly, all Googling ‘Nokia Apple lawsuit.’

John C. Dvorak And I’ll tell you this much, the kind of the kicker nobody wants to talk about – and I’ve been in these lawsuits as an expert witness on different things. And the kicker is, Steve Jobs has publicly said over and over, that if you’re going to steal, you steal from the best, and the good artists always steal, and this is going to be thrown in their face.

Leo Laporte Interesting. Nokia was not happy, by the way, about – Nokia said, ‘we prioritize antenna performance over physical design.’ Basically, it’s implying that Apple did not. RIM’s Co-Chief Executives said ‘Apple’s attempt to draw RIM into Apple self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple’s claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public understanding of antenna design, to deflect attention from Apple’s difficult situation.’ These guys are coming out swinging too.

Steve Gibson Wow. They’re not happy.

Leo Laporte I don’t blame them.

Anand Shimpi Well, yeah, I mean part of the issue is – Steve said, look, as we’re a – as we become a leader in the smartphone space, it’s our job to educate the consumer. The problem is, whenever I have a company tell me that they need to help educate the consumer, that’s usually like the marketing bells go off, and I’m like okay, hey, that’s not your job, that’s actually my job.

And that’s the problem, right? They did this under the guise of educating the consumer. But they weren’t totally forthcoming, right? All they said were, here are some pictures of bars, look what happens, see, everyone has the problem.

Leo Laporte Right.

Anand Shimpi And that’s not how education works, right? If you sit in science class, they don’t just show you pictures and that’s it.

Leo Laporte I think if the media did misrepresent it at all, the only misrepresentation was that losing bars meant you were going to lose calls. And I think that’s a false correlation. And so the media implied that the problem was the bars going down.

Lisa Bettany I mean a lot of people have said that the reception on the iPhone 4 is actually better than the 3GS.

Leo Laporte I think Apple’s saying that.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Is – Anand, is that what you’re saying?

Anand Shimpi What we said conclusively is that in low signal situations, that’s true. As we showed in our second article, it really varies other times. I mean, you will get either much better signal than the 3GS or much worse in kind of normal operating situations. And unfortunately, there’s just no real way to draw a thorough conclusion on that without one of Apple’s $100 million labs.

Leo Laporte It’s a beautiful lab, too. Do you see the pictures on the Apple website? Man, that’s sweet looking.

Anand Shimpi It looks nice, I wouldn’t mind one.

Steve Gibson So the conclusion is, it was a mistake to put the antenna on the outside.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Steve Gibson But we’re stuck with it for a year until they do the next version of the iPhone. Or at least till they’re going to fix something in a couple of months.

Leo Laporte I think…

Steve Gibson To make it a little better?

Leo Laporte I think they’re going to fix it because September 30, that arbitrary day when they stop giving cases, that sounds to me like they figure – Steve kind of even implied that in the Q&A. Well, we used that day because we think we might be able to fix this. But it’s not a software fix, right, Anand? Is it a hardware fix?

Anand Shimpi No, see, I wouldn’t actually go as far as to say it was a mistake to put the antenna on the outside, right? In our second article we pointed out that Brian got his hand on like the perfect 1 mil captain tape that fits perfectly around the band, and it fixes about half the problem, and actually brings the phone almost in line with like the Nexus One and 3GS. So maybe the lapse is more in the materials and engineering side of it. They might have just needed a non-conductive coating on the stainless steel band.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s what I think they’re going to do. I think it’s just anodize it, they’re going to do so. And there’s even been a rumor, that some people who’ve gotten newer iPhones – Lisa, tell us when you get your iPhone…

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte That right now, on the iPhone 4, you can feel a little dip where that black plastic thing is. By the way, Steve said, ‘the only mistake we made, we put that black plastic thing and that called attention to it, and you, you guys you found it!

John C. Dvorak How does – Leo, how does anodizing help anything? Isn’t that conductive?

Anand Shimpi Anodizing is an oxide coating, and oxide is an insulator.

Leo Laporte So, insulating it, in another words?

Steve Gibson Right.

Leo Laporte And it sounds like that’s what they have done. People are saying it’s a little smoother there than it was and it feels a little silkier. And so maybe they…

Anand Shimpi Yeah. We actually tested that. I got a – the idea was anything made after week 27. And the way you find out what week you have is you put the serial number, and I think digits number 4 and 5 indicate the week. So we’ve got a week 28 iPhone, something that was bought like a day before our article went live, and we measured resistance across that band to see if it was still conductive. And it was still conductive. So I think it’s too early to tell at this point if they are introducing a fix like that.

Lisa Bettany So there’s no software?

Leo Laporte Software can’t fix this, can it?

Anand Shimpi No. No this is a physics issue.

Leo Laporte You can’t physics with software. I think we’ve all learnt something here.

We are going to take a break and come back. Good news for the PC industry. Great news for Intel. But even for AMD, and I like to hear that. We’ll talk about that in a bit. Our guests, Lisa Bettany from So nice to see you.

Lisa Bettany So nice to see you.

Leo Laporte Pete Cashmore was supposed to be here, but he’s looking at houses.

Lisa Bettany It’s impossible, I mean, we’ve been looking for a place for the last week, but it’s just like we’re both in meetings and we’re both doing things.

Leo Laporte No, this is the weekend, this is when you go to open houses and I thank you before going it. You know, Pete’s going to pick a place that’s got a lot of pinball machines and you’re going to love it. It would be fantastic. It’s going to be a guy house.

Lisa Bettany [Laughter] As long as I’m here, I mean, I want to be here. I think it needs to happen.

Leo Laporte Bay Area here, you mean?

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah, you’re going to have to get rid of that iPhone, though. I’m sorry. Check it at the gate.

Lisa Bettany I’ve been using T-Mobile.

Leo Laporte Have you, with your iPhone?

Lisa Bettany Yeah, because I can do that.

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s interesting. And how’s that been? Has it dropped calls?

Lisa Bettany No.

Leo Laporte Okay. One more thing! Steve, one more thing! Steve one could have blamed AT&T I was – I felt like Steven has had his thinking, ‘god I want to blame AT&T so bad!’ And he didn’t.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Was that a good – that shows he has good impulse control.

Lisa Bettany He’s in the doghouse with everyone.

Leo Laporte Why didn’t he blame AT&T? John, shouldn’t he have blamed AT&T, is it AT&T’s fault?

John C. Dvorak No. It’s Foxconn’s fault, nobody wants to listen to that.

Leo Laporte It’s goofy, but okay, John, we’ll go with Foxconn. Anand, should he blame AT&T? Is that really what he should have said? Is look, I’m sorry, but it’s AT&T.

Anand Shimpi No, no. I think – you know, he has to – everyone has to work in the realm of the reality that is reality, right? And reality is…

Leo Laporte That’s true, he chose AT&T. Right.

Anand Shimpi Yeah. And this is the design they went it. I think the best thing to do is just be honest, open and willing to share as much data as physically possible. And my only complaint is that they didn’t do the latter part.

Leo Laporte Right. Anand Shimpi – go ahead.

Anand Shimpi I was just saying that I am pleased that they’re giving out the bumpers at least, which I – it’s the one thing that we asked them to do in our articles. We said, look, this is the right thing to do…

Leo Laporte It is.

Anand Shimpi Other than a design change.

Leo Laporte Right. I agree. Make them wear a case, make them wear a sheath.

Anand Shimpi is here from So nice to have you, it’s your source for hardware analysis and news at

Steve Gibson, also here;, they guy who hosts our Security Now show, and is always welcome in the Twit Cottage.

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Intel had a great quarter, best revenue ever in history according to their quarterly report. Furthermore, AMD would have actually had a profitable quarter except for a write-off they had to take out some factories that weren’t so hot.

Is – Anand will be a good guy to ask because you cover the PC industry very closely. Is this cost cutting or is this actual growth in the PC industry?

Anand Shimpi I think Intel said – and forgive me, I didn’t look at the report in great detail. Looks like, how many more billions of dollars did you make now. I think they’re credited to a lot of their success in the enterprise – ran the enterprise side, which makes sense, right. You look at the growth of cloud services and just a lot of stuff going on, on datacenter. That makes a lot of sense.

And AMD is hanging in there. It’s impressive that they’ve been able to do this much and had this bit of turnaround without a brand new architecture. They came up with that which we’ll get next year. So I don’t know. Overall, I don’t see the PC industry going anywhere, right. It’s still the foundation we need to get things like the holodeck and all the cool stuff we see in Minority Report and stuff like that.


But you’re not going to get that on a smartphone for another 10, 20 years. Obviously, it’s just not where the growth is happening right now.

Leo Laporte We need the PC because we want the holodeck.

Anand Shimpi I mean it’s true, right.

Leo Laporte No, you’re right. You’re right. You got it right, you write the software and a PC. Intel’s net income, $2.89 billion, $0.51 a share, it’s the best quarter they’ve had in 10 years. In fact, the last time, Intel’s net income was bigger than 2.5 billion was the year 2000 during the dot com boom. And AMD’s – as you said, AMD’s report was also very positive. In fact, Microsoft will report next week and it’s predicted that well, if this is true, if there is growth like this, Microsoft should also have a very, very good quarter. So I guess that’s good news.

John C. Dvorak Eh.

Leo Laporte It makes me wonder whether – I am sorry, John.

John C. Dvorak I said eh. I agree kind of with the assessment that these – that the business – well, what we just witness is a bunch of pent-up demand for replacement products. I mean there is all these old machines out there running XP, Microsoft says, screw that. We’re not even going to support it any more. You get SP3 and you’ll barely get some support. You better buy some new gear. So everybody bought a bunch of new computer. Though I think they may sit on these computers for the decade for all we know. There is nothing – there is no reason they have a Quad or an 8-core CPU, but we don’t have anything to run on it.

Anand Shimpi And it’s truly professional 3D work, video encoding or just bragging rights. I mean – so I didn’t experiment, right. I’ve got like an 8-core 16-thread desktop and you know what –

Leo Laporte Objection granted.

Anand Shimpi So once Arrandale came out and – sorry, the new 2010 mobile Core i3, i5, i7, I was like, look, maybe this thing is fast enough where I would notice the difference. And part of this is just I am crazy, right, but I seriously noticed the difference. I was like, this is too slow. I have to go back to my desktop. But John is right that…

Leo Laporte What are you doing on there – wait a minute, Anand. What are you doing on that thing that you noticed the difference?

John C. Dvorak How long does it take to boot WordStar?


Leo Laporte Are you…

Anand Shimpi You know what? I do all of my writing in WordStar. So that’s actually the number one benchmark.

Leo Laporte You and Jerry Pournelle. Are you a gamer, Anand? Is that why you need that…

Anand Shimpi You know, it’s not all gaming. I actually don’t have as much time for gaming as I’d like to and – I’ll save that for another time, but, no, it’s – I do all the AnandTech work there, right. So I am in the middle of publishing an article. I’ve got quite a bit that I am working on at the same time while I’m encoding videos in the background, while I’m editing, I don’t know, 2 or 300 photos, have all sorts of data that I’m manipulating and trying to surf the web and branch all these different sites and I just have got like a security cam monitor for like 7 security cameras open in the background. There is just a bunch of stuff happening. So for a user like me, the desktop is still where you can get that kind of best performance. But I will agree with John that the software just isn’t that exciting to take advantage of.

Leo Laporte It is a yawn, isn’t it?

John C. Dvorak And it’s not going to get any more exciting with these iPhones and Androids and the other platforms but mostly those two platforms because all the coders that are creative and that can dream up this stuff are going to put – because of the – even though the software only sells for $1, they can make like $1 million overnight basically just with some nice little app.

Anand Shimpi Now, so, I only – I take issue with that simply because – so this is the argument everyone made when Intel and AMD hit a gigahertz, right. They were like the software is yawn, my computer is fast enough. I don’t need to do anything. And the counterpoint to that is if we just stop there, if that was truly the case, you wouldn’t have ever gotten YouTube, right. YouTube was built on the fact that everyone had a certain minimal level of performance. And they could all do flash decoding – flash video decoding on the fly. And I think that’s where we’re going to go, right. So you imagine a future where everyone’s got at least four cores or at least 8 threads or whatever and it’s going to take some really crazy people but they’re going to be able to do something very cool. I am not willing to give up on the hardware race until I have my holodeck, right.


John C. Dvorak That used to be – seriously, that used to be my attitude until I witnessed what’s recently going on with this – the shrinking platform, the little platform, the handheld pocket platforms --

Leo Laporte I think they are so exciting. I think they are so exciting.

John C. Dvorak I mean look at – half of the show has already been talking about just nothing more than just one of these phones, and that’s the phone you don’t even like, Leo.

Leo Laporte No, in fact, I notice that not only with my shows, but with The Radio Show, with everything I do, most of the conversation now is around cell phones. I resisted that for a long time, but it is where innovation is happening right now.

John C. Dvorak It’s a platform. It’s the new platform. It’s taken over.

Leo Laporte But what happen in PC then?

John C. Dvorak The PC has now become – it’s going to become a commodity at some point. I mean I can get an extremely powerful machine built or I can build one myself for $600, the thing is like – it’s like a crave from like the 90s.

Leo Laporte That’s true.

John C. Dvorak It’s astonishing.

Anand Shimpi But that’s been…

Leo Laporte When Anand talks about this – what do you have? Do you have 12 cores? Do you have 8 cores? How many cores do you have on this desktop?

Anand Shimpi 8 cores, so it’s just two Quad core.

Leo Laporte You’re not going to get the Extreme so you can have 12 cores?

Anand Shimpi Oh, I have that but it’s on a test bed.


Leo Laporte And what the hell are you going to do with 12 cores that you can’t do with 8? That’s my question.

John C. Dvorak That’s the big question.

Anand Shimpi Right now, a lot of the core is just doing really, really well and – obviously, in servers, datacenters and stuff like that. But again, I think overseeing, two years ago the excitement was over netbooks, right.

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah, that was – and that by the way, looks like an aberration at this point. It looks like that was kind of a mass delusion.

Anand Shimpi Well, so smartphones are particularly exciting and they are going to be more obviously prevalent than netbooks simply because we are able to cram decades of innovation in the PC industry into a matter of a few years, right. So if you look at how long it took for Intel to go from in-order architectures to an out-of-order architecture with the P6, and that was several, several years, right, and we’re seeing that kind of innovation in a very, very short period. And we’re going to continue to see that going forward, right, like so as Intel and AMD, GlobalFoundries, everyone, as they drive these manufacturing processes down in physical transistor size, you’re going to be able to get – and you know, the other thing is the innovation has already happened, right. People already know the best way to optimally decide a single core CPU or a dual core CPU, whatever. It’s just a question of how quickly can we get it into the right [ph] power outlook (48:27). And I think that’s a big reason that you’re seeing a lot of innovation here. There’s simply – all the tricks have already been invented. It’s a question of when can we get in the right [ph] power outlook (48:36) and that happens like clockwork right now because the war is on.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Anand Shimpi Did I put everyone to sleep? Is that what…

Leo Laporte I am sorry, what?


Lisa Bettany Can I take it like a slightly less geeky angle?

Leo Laporte Please.

Anand Shimpi Absolutely not.


Lisa Bettany I mean let’s think of people who have never really owned a computer and all of a sudden own an iPhone and have the ability to edit movies, to put photos online --

Leo Laporte That’s exactly right.

Lisa Bettany I mean there is this whole generation like even someone like my mother who I introduced to Mac products like --

Leo Laporte How about iPad? Do you think that that’s another --

Lisa Bettany I mean I have pooh-poohed the iPad so much but I just got one and it has replaced – like I had a MacBook Air. I threw that out the window when I got my iPad.

Leo Laporte I hope you didn’t hit anybody with that?

Lisa Bettany It just sort of skimmed off to surface.


Leo Laporte How many skips did you get? That’s cool.

Lisa Bettany I actually wanted to.

Leo Laporte When are we going to skip the iPad out in the air?

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte That would be fun, yeah.

Lisa Bettany But it’s replaced that for me. And it’s so zippy, it’s so quick, it’s so – like it’s light and I mean someone like my mom who just wants to surf a few pages, do maybe a couple of emails, add photos, look at photos, I mean there is that whole generation who doesn’t care about 12 cores --

Leo Laporte They don’t care about computers. They don’t know from cores.

Lisa Bettany They don’t know anything about cores. They just want to surf the Internet.

Leo Laporte Right.

Lisa Bettany And look at their Facebook account and I think there is this whole generation and even you look at sort of teenagers who want to just like put photos on Facebook, they want to maybe tweet a little bit and there is that whole generation and I think that’s sort of where Apple is moving away from power users to, I don’t know what to call them, just the…

Leo Laporte The normal people. The normals.

Anand Shimpi So here is the issue I have with that, right, so I agree completely for browsing the web, smartphones do it well enough, something with a larger screen like the iPad, does a really good job. I would encourage you to download pages, which is pages for the iPad which is Apple’s document creation software, and try making a flyer, right, do the things that they show you on the video where you – you have a flyer – I did this for my parents a few weeks back, I created a little flyer, they were trying to sell their house and dragged in the pictures, made it – did it the way that they do it on the little videos, and that thing got unbearably slow, because it’s slow, right…

Leo Laporte It’s not a good computer is what it is.

Anand Shimpi Exactly.

Steve Gibson I think that a really useful way of dividing all these devices we’ve been talking about is content production versus content consumption.

Leo Laporte This is what Jobs was saying, he says the PC is a truck…

Steve Gibson Precisely.

Leo Laporte Not everybody needs a truck, some people will always need a truck, but some people just need a sports car.

John C. Dvorak So it was like Senator Stevens.

Steve Gibson And so a large multi-core desktop machines…

Leo Laporte The Internet is just truck.

Steve Gibson …our large multi-core desktop machines are content production engines which really do that well with large screens and keyboards and mice, but you don’t need that for content consumption which the phone and the iPad both do really well.

Anand Shimpi And you know, I would – I would also caution everyone and making sure we understand the world looking at this as a snapshot in time, you know 10 years ago if we said, look the PC is going to be your primary TV device and the set-top boxes and TVs in general, people aren’t going to spend much time with cable TV anymore – people would call you crazy, right? But because of this kind of – because the software and emergent software and the hardware, we’ve been able to kind of change that.

Steve Gibson And bandwidths.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, and bandwidth. And I’m really – you know, I think what we are looking at is a snapshot in time where look what you want to do today is Facebook and browse the web and this and that, and I think these devices are excellent for that. But I think in the long run you are still going to see new categories of devices, new usage models. It’s not going to end right now, right. Like this isn’t the best a guess. And man I’m telling you, the holodeck when you get there. That’s going to require a completely different type of device, whether it’s a PC, whether it’s just a big boxful of cores that lives in your basement. There are some interesting things that are being worked on right now.

Lisa Bettany I’m still hoping for the hoverboard.

Leo Laporte Yeah, that was the best part of Back to the Future.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, I take – I’d take a hoverboard over a holodeck.

Leo Laporte I had my headphone on my head. So if you wanted a Microsoft KIN – and who doesn’t – you better get it now because according to Electronista Verizon is going to return all unsold KIN devices to Microsoft tomorrow.

John C. Dvorak Oh, we got to get one.

Leo Laporte All online sales of the KIN 1 and 2 have been suspended. Basically the KIN, which according to Electronista has only sold 9,000 units is not only so…

John C. Dvorak That many?

Leo Laporte Yeah. John Cooper said 503. And he based that on an anonymous Microsoft source. The real question is, is this going to end up in a landfill somewhere so that Michael J. Fox can hoverboard to it and find it and say, ooh, look at this, a KIN!

Lisa Bettany The KIN, I mean I think their – their marketing campaign, because I have been looking at sort of…

Leo Laporte What went wrong?

Lisa Bettany Yeah. I mean you look at the success of the Old Spice guy, I mean look at that…

Leo Laporte Well, let’s talk – we are going to talk about him next.

Lisa Bettany Yeah. That the success of that versus the KIN where they hired all these actors to go out and meet with their people on Facebook…

Leo Laporte Shoot pictures of their up-shirt T-shirt pictures...

Lisa Bettany But I mean ultimately it’s just a giant break of…

Leo Laporte Sascha Segan on PC Magazine said, “The KINs are misbegotten, crippled creatures compared to pretty much every other smartphone on the market. They've been priced as smartphones, with smartphone data plans, and they’re being sold as smartphones” but they are stupid, I did that part at the end. So it was a misbegotten device.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, I mean it’s just – it’s just not going to find…

Leo Laporte I want one. John, let’s – we should corner the market on KINs. You know, one of the big…

John C. Dvorak I think they’d be great collector’s item sometime in the future.

Leo Laporte I think so. Especially that KIN 1 because it was so little and cute.

John C. Dvorak The little round one.

Leo Laporte You could stick it right in your bra and carry it around, nobody know you.

John C. Dvorak I stopped wearing a bra, Leo. What about you?

Leo Laporte I’ve apparently revealed too much.

Steve Gibson Microsoft made a big deal of the fact that it was able to synchronize with the cloud which I don’t think anyone really cared about that much.

Leo Laporte Right. Isn’t that interesting?

Steve Gibson It’s like big deal, you know. We really want that, we want all kinds of apps.

John C. Dvorak Didn’t Microsoft just some months back lose its complete cloud at some point and all these people had to get their phone…

Leo Laporte That was the Sidekick, the Danger Sidekick, which is also…

John C. Dvorak The Sidekick crap. That – who is going to trust them?

Leo Laporte Yeah. It’s also…

Anand Shimpi So I would say that the automatic cloud syncing stuff, Brian Klug, the antenna guy from our iPhone 4 stuff, he actually did an article called Microsoft's KIN: A Eulogy. And that was the one feature that he actually said, look, all phones need to have this. This needs to be in Windows Phone 7, this needs to be in future versions of Android and iOS. It’s truly like a great example of something that you just – that just works that you don’t really have to touch. Now, the other aspects of the KIN, obviously that’s why it failed. But the idea behind this that you take photos, everything you do is just stored in your own personal account online that you can access from anywhere that is kind of cool, right? Because ultimately at the end of the day that’s what we want; we want all of our content on any device anywhere, anytime and…

John C. Dvorak Yeah. The problem is the anywhere-anytime issue. I mean I have – was up in Port Angeles floating around, looking for a specific place out on a Peninsula, and my – and I was using a Nexus One. And the phone just – all of a sudden there was no signal to be had because I was in some area where there was no signal. If I have no signal, zero signal, what good is the cloud going to do me? And this is going to happen once in a while.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, but you still have local storage of information, right?

John C. Dvorak Well yeah. But then why do I need the cloud?

Anand Shimpi It’s for convenience, right? So say you are away from your phone, or say you are on someone else’s notebook and you are like, oh, hey I took these pictures on my phone, I don’t have to show you on the phone, I can pull it up on my notebook or on your notebook or on your TV. I mean it’s just that added flexibility is very nice.

John C. Dvorak Well, you argue for the cloud, I just find it to be just something that’s going to cost me more money.

Anand Shimpi Well, I don’t – I don’t…

John C. Dvorak And yes, the chat-room says that Dvorak hates clouds. I don’t hate clouds.

Leo Laporte He also hates puppies, kittens…

John C. Dvorak I hate puppies.

Anand Shimpi So, I wouldn’t – I wouldn’t argue blindly in favor of the cloud. But I just think you have to use everything to its benefits, to its strength.

Leo Laporte Well, and that’s the key, nobody is saying let’s replace computers with the cloud, it’s ‘and’ – it’s another – I mean…

Anand Shimpi Yes, yes, exactly.

Leo Laporte The Carbonite – and I was just talking about, that’s cloud back-up, it’s back-up of your data, I mean it’s not like you give-up your data, you still have…

Lisa Bettany Do we really need to…

John C. Dvorak I like the back-up bit, using the cloud for back-up is fine with me, I like it.

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s because you are not relying on it, you’ve got it. Here is another reason to use the cloud. Anand you probably – I know, at least – the idea to use multiple computers and anywhere you go, you can get your stuff is very powerful.

Lisa Bettany It is, yeah.

Leo Laporte The cloud didn’t become a hot topic to people having more than one computer.

Anand Shimpi And I would argue but actually but this idea of where to store the cloud, right? Whether it’s in Google’s totally selfless hands [laughter] or if it’s maybe a little – you know, a home data center, the idea that your cloud is stored at your home and that’s just like you keep your safe full of jewelry, right, that’s – that’s where you keep your data.

Leo Laporte That’s why I like the Pogoplug, that’s why I love the Pogoplug, I mean that’s really what the Pogoplug is, your personal cloud.

John C. Dvorak And that one thing of course that we bring up once in a while when I’m getting anyone agreeing with me, which doesn’t seem to be the case today by any means, is that you can get bounced from the cloud. I mean what if they take a dislike to you using Google’s, all their services and then somebody says, you know what, we decided you are a spammer, you can’t, boom, you are dead.

Leo Laporte That’s true. People get bounced from Facebook. But on the other hand it’s like saying, you better not have a website because what if Google bounces you, you’ll never – nobody will ever be find you. I mean this is not going to – doesn’t mean you are not going to use it. Just don’t rely on it 100%.

John C. Dvorak What about my data, my valuable data in this cloud.

Leo Laporte So, let’s talk…

Steve Gibson So I think the point is, it’s a good thing to have, but it wasn’t a feature that would – would sell the phone. It’s ultimately I agree with Anand that it makes sense for future phones to have this kind of cloud-based back-up because why not, it’s – the bandwidth is there, they are already connected, it doesn’t cost anything essentially because just data and bandwidth are both now so cheap. But people are not going to buy the phone for that feature, it’s just someday…

John C. Dvorak And by the way, I’m reading a good column in Marketwatch about this phone and Microsoft’s blunders here. You might want to look up. This phone was – they had not buzzes, the thing was a disaster waiting to happen.

Leo Laporte Yeah. It did happen, and it took six weeks.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, did happen. What am I saying?

Leo Laporte It took almost no time at all. You use the Nexus One. Do you like that Nexus One? I’m a big Nexus One fan. Google has killed it, by the way officially. They are going to stop selling it.

John C. Dvorak Till the Nexus Two.

Leo Laporte Well, and then they said there wouldn’t be, but now I’m seeing rumors that there will be a Nexus Two. I think it’s nice for Google to have one phone that is pure Google, so that you can see what the other carry – what the carriers and the other handset manufacturers are doing, you know the Motorola BLUR for instances.

Lisa Bettany What did you like about it?

Leo Laporte What did I like about the Nexus One?

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte It’s a great phone! It’s got a great screen. I love Android, by the way, and one of the things that happens on Android is when you log in to your Google account on a new Android phone, it copies all your settings over. So it does have kind of that kind of cloud backup. So I don’t – my phone if I move to another Android phone, it immediately recognizes me and puts all my apps on it.

Lisa Bettany But don’t you like – how hard it is to get your iPhone – new iPhone set up? It’s part of the fun.


Leo Laporte I get to drag icons all over, at least they put folders. Thank God, they put folders on that. I do like widgets. I think widgets are a very nice feature of Android. The ability to – this is typical, Apple says, no, no, we want you have a grid of 4x4 icons and that’s it. And with a Google phone you can have widgets. You can have a weather display. You can have time display. And I think that’s nice too, especially…

John C. Dvorak By the way, we had a – on the last Cranky Geeks, we had a BLUR on the show. And I just had definite trouble trying to find it because it was…

Leo Laporte Well, the new – my phone of choice…

John C. Dvorak It’s out of focus. Why did they do that?

Leo Laporte Oh, stop it. It’s like – what was that Woody Allen movie where the guy was walking around, he is always out of focus? There’s just something wrong with him. I can’t focus on him. I would show you this but I don’t have enough cameras. But I really like this Droid X, and I’m going to let Lisa look at my Droid X and see what she thinks and compare. It’s big, isn’t it?

Lisa Bettany It is big.

Leo Laporte Stop it, John, I know what you’re thinking.

John C. Dvorak I’m not saying nothing.

Leo Laporte All right, all right, all right.

John C. Dvorak That’s what she said.

Leo Laporte Since we’ve got Steve Gibson on, it would be important to mention the cryptographic attack against OAuth. Now OAuth is an authentication – an OpenID authentication standards used by many websites and by many users for single sign-on, for log in. It makes it very easy to use. Digg uses it. Twitter uses it. Apparently, there is something called a timing attack. You want to talk about what that is, Steve?

Steve Gibson I’m not up to speed on that. I know about OAuth. But I hadn’t run across any news of this attack.

Leo Laporte Well, it just happened a day ago. So I am not surprised.

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Leo Laporte By submitting signatures over and over again, cycling through characters, and measuring the time it takes for the computer to respond, hackers can figure out the correct digital signature.

Steve Gibson So that’s what’s known as a side channel attack where as a consequence of the design of a cryptographic system, some useful information leaks out through like not the actual decryption or not the success of the process but, for example, the length of time it takes to compute. And so it turns out that you have to be very careful when you design these systems that you’re not letting any information out through so-called side channels.

So what this means is that the algorithm behaves differently even when it fails the way it fails, like the length of time it takes to fail gives you some information. And if you’re really clever about what you feed in, you can end up discerning the internal state from the way it reacts on the outside. And when you get the internal state then you’re able to figure out what the key is. So that’s what happened.

Leo Laporte This – we’re going to hear more and more of these kinds of things because Black Hat is coming up later in the month in Las Vegas. And of course all the hackers are getting their proof of concepts together. And this is one of them. They are going to demonstrate it at the Black Hat. The researcher who came up with it said, I really think people need to see the exploits of it to see that this is a problem that needs to be fixed. Yahoo’s Director of Standards, Eran Hammer-Lahav, who is a contributor with both OpenID and OAuth said, I’m not concerned by it, I don’t think any large provider is using any of the open source libraries for their server side implementation. And, and this is most important. It’s a non trivial attack to execute, which I guess you would agree Steve?

Steve Gibson Yeah, also I would wonder if it even works over the net. So, for example…

Leo Laporte It does, it does.

Steve Gibson Ah, okay, that’s interesting then.

Leo Laporte Because of something called network jitter. They’ve been able to demonstrate it all over the net.

Steve Gibson Oh, that’s very impressive then because I was going to say that the uncertainty in packet transit time, you tend to lose any timing information, if it was going through lots of router hops. But it sounds like they have managed to null that out too.

Leo Laporte Internet developers have long assumed there are too many other factors, network jitter that slow down or speed up response time and make it impossible to get the kind of precise results…

Steve Gibson Right.

Leo Laporte …for successful timing attacks. According to Lawson, he’s at Root Labs, he and Nelson tested attacks over the Internet, local area networks and in cloud computing environments, and found they could crack passwords in all the environments by using algorithms to weed out jitter.

Steve Gibson Very impressive.

Leo Laporte That some hellacious work, even if it’s…

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Leo Laporte Not something you could duplicate. That’s what’s pretty impressive about some of these guys, I’d tell you. Speaking of the iPhone – were we? I think we were. San Mateo --

Steve Gibson When were we not?

Leo Laporte Yeah, I know. Well, a couple more iPhone stories and we’re going to move on. I really want to get to the Old Spice guy for Lisa. San Mateo County, officials have withdrawn a search warrant issued for Gizmodo. Remember, we got all bent out of shape over this.

John C. Dvorak What is this, like a perpetual search warrant? This story has baffled me.

Leo Laporte Jason Chen was the Gizmodo reporter who had the stolen or found iPhone. Authorities searched his house in April. And they wanted to keep the information that they found on those electronic devices that they confiscated. Chen agreed to submit information that was on those devices but the search warrant drew heat from critics and me and many people on this show because they violated shield laws that protect journalists. Mr. Chen’s attorney went to the district attorney saying if you agree to withdraw the search warrant, we will grant you access to the information you’re looking for.

John C. Dvorak What does that mean?

Leo Laporte Well, and this is why there is a shield law because you get the computer and, yeah, you are looking for one thing, but it could be a phishing expedition you could find maybe if this is a journalist that you are targeting, you could find other source information. So the attorney said, look, you going to have problems in court with this shield law. Why don’t we give you the information you are looking for and protect the rest of the information on this system? They said, yes, and they dropped the search warrant.

John C. Dvorak Did we have any idea what information they were looking for? I mean they already – I mean he basically – I mean what kind of information could it possibly be looking for that would incriminate him for anything?

Leo Laporte Well, that’s the thing, I don’t know. They don’t say that anybody has been charged with a crime. And --

John C. Dvorak This whole thing is sketchy.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I think what happened is that REACT and the district attorney in San Mateo realized that they had a problem with potentially a legal search. So they made a good – they made a deal. They compromised with Chen’s attorney. I think this is actually good news. It means that their shield laws do carry some weight. And I think Gizmodo did the right thing. They said, look, we just want to protect our other sources. We’ll give you the information from – about this specific thing.

[Sound effect]

Would you buy a Nexus Two, John?

John C. Dvorak The Nexus Two?

Leo Laporte Yeah, I mean – I’m sorry. You don’t buy anything. Would you accept a Nexus Two free?

John C. Dvorak Absolutely.


Leo Laporte Let’s talk about the Old Spice guy and more. We are talking tech with Lisa Bettany of MostlyLisa, Anand Shimpi of, John C. Dvorak of and Steve Gibson from We’re glad you’re here today. We’re glad you’re all here today. Thank you for coming in.

John C. Dvorak Hey can I get a plug in?

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak My Twitter numbers have not gone up much because I haven’t been promoting it. So I want people to sign on to the THErealDVORAK and get me – I got to get some numbers. It’s like ridiculous.

Leo Laporte John, how many do you have? How greedy will you be?

John C. Dvorak 68,700, something like that.

Leo Laporte How many?

John C. Dvorak It’s nothing.

Leo Laporte Nothing?

Steve Gibson Say it again.

Leo Laporte 68,793.

Lisa Bettany You need more bikini photos.

John C. Dvorak 68,000

Leo Laporte Is that your secret?

Lisa Bettany I’m just saying.

John C. Dvorak That’s only half of what Leo has --

Leo Laporte I don’t want to see John in a bikini. I saw OhDoctah in a towel.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte And I’m still suffering from that. I don’t want to see John in a bikini.

John C. Dvorak I don’t either.

Leo Laporte I think you’d look better than OhDoctah in a towel however.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, well.

Leo Laporte And I love --

Steve Gibson So, John, what is your Twitter account name?

John C. Dvorak THErealDVORAK.

Leo Laporte Oh, but make sure you spell --

John C. Dvorak And that’s spelled D-V-O-R-A-K.

Leo Laporte Make sure you spell Twitter right because I spell that with two Is and I got a --

John C. Dvorak Oh yeah, and you get a parker site.

Leo Laporte Parker site. Here it is – no, no

John C. Dvorak [Sound effect] You know, anyway. Let’s talk --

Leo Laporte No, I want to show your page, there it is.

John C. Dvorak There it is.

Leo Laporte What is with the clouds?

Lisa Bettany It’s a cloud.

Leo Laporte You got clouds on your page.

Steve Gibson Okay.

John C. Dvorak Cloud computing baby, cloud computing.

Leo Laporte That’s the only kind of cloud computing John likes. Wait a minute. Let’s see who John’s following. All attractive women, John. Bobbi – who is Bobbi Eden?

John C. Dvorak Oh, that’s the stripper that was going to give everyone who followed her a – some oral sex.

Leo Laporte Ah!


John C. Dvorak [Indiscernible] (69:23) teams won the – hey, why not take a chance? What does it hurt? You asked!

Leo Laporte Oh, I am happy I asked. By the way, she’s got 103,000 followers.

John C. Dvorak She started with 7,000 before she made the offer.

Lisa Bettany Well, there you go.

Leo Laporte And it worked, clearly. She is – according to her Twitter page, number 1 Dutch porn star.

Steve Gibson So, John, what are you going to do for your followers?

Lisa Bettany Exactly.


John C. Dvorak Oh, I’m going to thank them profusely.

Leo Laporte Okay, we’ve already --

John C. Dvorak The emphasis is on the profuse.

Steve Gibson You’re going to profuse all over them?

Leo Laporte Profusing all over them once again. This show – and I’m sure they are very embarrassed at this point, but they are…

John C. Dvorak You asked! What am I supposed to do, lie? I can’t lie.

Leo Laporte No! I asked you tell the truth. And that’s what I love about you, John. John offers investment advice on solar companies after attending Intersolar. Now you are – what are you – you re-tweeted the guy who is mad at you. That’s good, John. That’s the best way to handle that I think.

John C. Dvorak Yes, to get me those big numbers I am looking for.

Leo Laporte THErealDVORAK, follow him and maybe Bobbi will notice, THErealDVORAK.

John C. Dvorak Actually, Bobbi is the No Agenda porn star girl, so…

Leo Laporte She is on your show?

John C. Dvorak No, she is our official porn star. But she’s never come on the show. Nobody comes on the show. It’s not a show that has anything other than two guys yakking.

Leo Laporte There is your problem. This show brought to you by Did you see they just got influx of some money?

Lisa Bettany Oh, yeah.

John C. Dvorak Tons of money, yeah.

Leo Laporte Big, 38 million I think, venture capital, that’s really fantastic. They are once again just the place to go if you want to build a new website. If you go to, you can try it for 15 days free. You don’t even need a credit card. And if you decide to buy, use the coupon code, twit, and get 10% off for the rest of your life, forever, which is great. And it’s very affordable.

Anyway, they start at $8 a month for both hosting and I think absolutely the best content management system out there. You get these great templates. They don’t look like templates. And then you can customize them to make your site look unique. They’ve got incredible statistics in content management and talk about cloud hosting, they are using some very sophisticated Java VPS technology that gives you instant scaling.

Lisa Bettany Great for photographers as well.

Leo Laporte Are you using them?

Lisa Bettany No, I’m not but I – yeah…

Leo Laporte Why not? We got to get you on Squarespace.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, I am on WordPress and I have been on them for ages.

Leo Laporte You know I think Squarespace needs to like reach out to WordPress users because people – you know everybody knows WordPress. They have been around ages. Now that Squarespace has a little money, I think that they should reach out because this is a modern platform in ways that WordPress absolutely is…

Lisa Bettany Well, now that I mean I have my blog and then I have my portfolio and I’m getting…

Leo Laporte Look at the – go to, look at the Examples page and then click Portfolios.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, because I mean I need a portfolio that can be viewed on an iPad, an iPhone…

Leo Laporte Right, right.

Lisa Bettany It needs to be mobile and right now the site that I have is Flash and…

Leo Laporte Not good.

Lisa Bettany It’s not good.

Leo Laporte Not good. Squarespace is just beautiful stuff that doesn’t look templated. That’s one of the things I like about. You can’t tell it’s Squarespace. It’s not normally a selling point but in fact I think it is.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte WordPress blogs tend to look like WordPress blogs, you know, you can kind of, oh, yeah, I have seen it. Seamless importing of all your content from WordPress or Movable Type or TypePad or Blogger and out too. So you are not stuck. You can try it free for two weeks, There is a great iPhone app. You’ll love that., give it a try. They really do great stuff.

And we do our InsideTWiT blog on there. We use drupal for our big site because we have all these elaborate things and now I’m starting to wish I had used Squarespace because it costs a lot of money for development and customization and it takes – there is delays and it’s just – you know it’d be so much easier.

Oh well, so what do you think of this – I thought this was a really smart campaign on Old Spice’s part.

Lisa Bettany Oh, it’s definitely the best, interactive, web based advertising that we’ve seen.

Leo Laporte So we’ve talked before about the Old Spice ad, I’m On a Horse, which I love, it’s like one of the…

Lisa Bettany Swan Dive.

Leo Laporte Swan Dive. Well, and then there was a sequel. Swan Dive came out a couple of weeks ago. Wieden+Kennedy, the agency that did this, just brilliant; in fact we did a video dissecting the “I’m On a Horse”, how they did it, piece by piece with the creatives.

Lisa Bettany Oh, cool.

Leo Laporte I’m catching up with your Barney video, John. I’ve almost got a million views on that.

John C. Dvorak Oh, really?

Leo Laporte You better get another Barney video out.

John C. Dvorak People go to Dvorak Uncensored on YouTube and watch Barney.

Leo Laporte That’s – this is your marketing strategy? This?

John C. Dvorak Yes.

Leo Laporte So what Old Spice did is they got Isaiah, can’t remember his last name, Mustafa, and he is a football player, really hunky guy, right? And they got him in. And I think they must have just sat there in studio and watched people tweet him.

Lisa Bettany Well, looks like they had him in studio for about two or three days and they were watching any sort of ad tweets and they would actually do a video reply.

Leo Laporte Right.

Lisa Bettany And if you go through, I mean there is like hundreds of them, and there is like Kevin Ross, and…

Leo Laporte Well, that – we talked about that last week because we know Kevin and he kind of said, get well, Kevin. But there was a wedding proposal there. Well, he and Alyssa Milano have been going back and back, back and forth…

Lisa Bettany I mean it’s so smart. I mean it’s the engagement factor that really has made this as popular it is.

John C. Dvorak Isaiah Mustafa.

Leo Laporte Yeah, his daughter Haley sent him a tweeter why is it you look so much like my dad?

[Video Presentation]

Oh, that’s kind of sweet.

Steve Gibson So he comes up with that on the fly? That’s looking good.

Leo Laporte Well, obviously, they have a team of copywriters sitting there, right?

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, it’s just writing, such smart writing.

Leo Laporte Let me see if I can find the marriage proposal because that is really…

Steve Gibson That’s really good.

Leo Laporte This is how you – this is how you do a viral marketing, right?

Lisa Bettany They even did – Reddit did one more, they – he gave them sort of an answering machine so you could just like piece together all the different numbers and create your own message on your phone.

Leo Laporte Really?

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte So you could do an Old Spice…

Lisa Bettany You could do, yeah.

Leo Laporte So why does this work when so many other social media efforts by big companies just are terrible?

Lisa Bettany I mean obviously being successful on YouTube is huge but also just – like I said before like the engagement factor that people are engaging in this and then you get all the re-tweets. Then you got all people on YouTube talking about it and I mean it’s just in the right --

John C. Dvorak I have a thought on this too.

Leo Laporte Okay. Go ahead, John.

John C. Dvorak Every one of these things that’s worked has a sense of humor.

Leo Laporte Yes, funny, it’s got to be funny first.

John C. Dvorak And all the ones that are serious never work.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak That’s my thought for the day.

Leo Laporte No, that’s good.

John C. Dvorak Thank you very much.

Leo Laporte Thank you.

John C. Dvorak I’ll be here all the week.

Anand Shimpi They are not trying to push anything on you, right.

Leo Laporte I’ll give you another shot in a second. Say again?

Anand Shimpi They are not trying to push anything on you, right, like it’s just…

Leo Laporte You know what, there you go.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte They never mentioned Old Spice in these things. Well, they do a little…

Lisa Bettany Well, they do. I mean he is saying…

Leo Laporte But in a very tongue and cheek way.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Here is the marriage proposal if I can play it.

[Video Presentation]

Steve Gibson It’s really good creative, Leo. It’s really good creative.

Leo Laporte It’s good writing, good writing.

Steve Gibson That’s what makes it go, yeah, the whole thing.

Leo Laporte And of course, we are playing it. Everybody is.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Everybody is I’m sure re-tweeting it and sending it to friends and by the way, she said yes.

Lisa Bettany Oh, nice.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Would that work for you?

Lisa Bettany Ummm --

Leo Laporte I wonder, you know, I think it’s…


John C. Dvorak Apparently not.

Leo Laporte Well, I remember reading, you know, sometimes people call the sports events, they call the score board and they say would you put the marriage proposal up on the score board. And I was reading I think it was a Yankee stadium, the scoreboard people say, yes, we get two or three a week last minute stop the proposal, please don’t do it. Whatever, oh, my God! I’ve made a horrible mistake.

Steve Gibson I sobered up.

Leo Laporte I sobered up. It’s probably what it is. Anyway, so, yeah, I think success, and congratulations to Isaiah Mustafa who has now been on every TV show and he has probably got a great career ahead of him, and again, credit to really the creative behind this at Wieden+Kennedy because they did a great job.

Lisa Bettany I’d be interested to know how it’s converting to sales of Old Spice rather than just…

Steve Gibson Ah, very good point.

Leo Laporte The Old Spice YouTube channel has 75 million total views, 75 million, now how much do you pay for an ad on the Super Bowl, a lot more for a lot less, right. Let me see if they say – if there is any figure on sales.

Steve Gibson Sometimes these commercials are so good and so clever that you completely lose track of or if they even indicate what it is they are selling, you are just transfixed by how fun they are. It’s like okay, what was that commercial for?

Leo Laporte Well, and OhDoctah makes an interesting point. He says, nobody uses Old Spice. This is like grandpa’s aftershave…

Lisa Bettany But if you compare it to, say, AXE, that’s really prevalent.

Leo Laporte That’s very hip.

Lisa Bettany It’s really out there and it sort of like right there when you walk in supermarket, people are all about AXE and their sort of ad campaign. I mean it is possible that people could sort of switch to...

Leo Laporte Could be. Also –

Lisa Bettany something like, be there like, oh the Old Spice guy, he is so cool.

Leo Laporte Right. And then they smell it.

Anand Shimpi Does anyone actually think the AXE guys are cool? Like I just thought that that was just like – that was just a big joke.

Leo Laporte Yeah, you know who does? My 15-year-old son. It’s not aimed at anybody over 30 or 40.

Lisa Bettany That was my very last audition that I went to.

Leo Laporte You went to an AXE audition?

Lisa Bettany Yes. It was –

Leo Laporte That was it – that was it that turned you on auditions.

Lisa Bettany That was it – that was it. It was –

Leo Laporte What did they – when was that?

Lisa Bettany Oh gosh, I can’t even remember, maybe three years ago...

Leo Laporte And what happened?

Lisa Bettany ...and I walked it and there was a group of girls and they are like, okay we are going to pretend that this AXE is like – there is like, it’s like raining AXE and you get really, really horny and you watched these two dogs having sex and you’re really turned on by that.

Leo Laporte Oh dear.

Anand Shimpi Wow.

Lisa Bettany And that’s when I walked out.

Leo Laporte You actually walked out?

Lisa Bettany Yeah, and I said...

Leo Laporte Good for you.

Lisa Bettany ...I have a Master’s degree, why am I here.

Leo Laporte I am sorry. I am not going to watch that. Dogs fornicating.

Lisa Bettany So in comparison to –

Leo Laporte Did they actually have dogs or was you who supposed to imagine that?

Lisa Bettany No, it was all in our imaginations,

Leo Laporte Okay, all right.

Lisa Bettany So yeah. But that, I mean compared to that kind of advertising like the Old Spice guy will carry a lot more weight, I think.

Leo Laporte There is a –

John C. Dvorak Hey, Leo?

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak You remember a Hai Karate and the English Leather?

Leo Laporte Yeah, same thing the Hai Karate – okay, English Leather wasn’t that the one that said, all my men wear English Leather, or they wear nothing at all.

John C. Dvorak Yeah something like that.

Leo Laporte And then Hai Karate, the guy who had to chop – he had to do karate –

John C. Dvorak Bunch of bruisers.

Leo Laporte Women were attacking – no bruisers, women – they were attacking him.

John C. Dvorak Oh it’s women attacking, that’s where the AXE thing comes from.

Leo Laporte And AXE is just – I don’t know what the point with AXE is.

John C. Dvorak It’s Hai Karate all over again.

Leo Laporte But the thing I will – I want to score on every single one of these, and Lisa correct me if I’m wrong, they all smell horrible.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte You don’t want a guy to smell like AXE.

Lisa Bettany Well I mean Old Spice smells like my high school boyfriend.

Leo Laporte That’s the only thing that could make Old Spices a little bit of nostalgia, right? It’s because he was 15, he had $1.50 to spend on aftershave and no taste.

John C. Dvorak No, he used his dad’s.

Steve Gibson But it smells like grandpa.

Leo Laporte It smells like grandpa. So this is – I think you made a really good point, does this sell more Old Spice or does it just make the brand hip with no actual benefit to the brand.

Lisa Bettany Well, I mean brand recognition is huge and I think eventually it does translate and if –

Leo Laporte If something is a crappy product, it’s not going to save it.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, but we will remember, I mean it’s the Old Spice guys...

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Lisa Bettany we’ve already bought that...

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Lisa Bettany ....that’s one –

Leo Laporte Who’s the winner here? Isaiah Mustafa.

Lisa Bettany Yes.

Leo Laporte Nobody else. I don’t think Old Spice sells more...

John C. Dvorak I don’t know. I wonder about the – Old Spice…

Leo Laporte Do you think?

John C. Dvorak I wonder if it’s been reformulated because I remember when I was a kid, and then I remember the smell that specifically –

Leo Laporte It smelt like Black Jack gum, when I was a kid.

John C. Dvorak No, it smelled…

Leo Laporte Smelled like molasses and turpentine, it was great.

John C. Dvorak No, it smells like cheap gin, really cheap gin.

Leo Laporte Cheap gin.

Anand Shimpi I mean Old Spice also does have a very extensive deodorant line too, right? So it’s – and not to sound like a deodorant reviewer or anything but that is a big part of it too.

Steve Gibson I think it’s made of gin, isn’t it?

John C. Dvorak There are a couple of people in the chat room used the deodorant.

Leo Laporte Wait a minute, Steve just said something. Say that again.

Steve Gibson I think it’s made with gin.

John C. Dvorak Maybe.

Leo Laporte That might be a little pricy. But it is a good name for the show. It’s made with gin. Facebook reaches half a billion users, it finally happened.

John C. Dvorak So to say.

Leo Laporte The – there seem to be a little bit of a slowdown in uptake amongst certain groups, men 18 to 34 in the U.S. and so forth, but Facebook is now starting to beat Orkut in India, which is where Google had two strongholds, Brazil and India for its failed social media network, Facebook’s even –

John C. Dvorak Orkut.

Leo Laporte Orkut. Facebook has even beaten them in India now apparently or coming on strong. Half a billion – there are now – okay to put this in perspective there are now more Facebook users than Windows 7 licenses. There are more Facebook users, the number of people in the entire United States. There are more Facebook users than the number of daily Twitter posts.

Lisa Bettany There is a Facebook movie.

Leo Laporte Oh I want to see that too.

Lisa Bettany No, no you can’t.

Leo Laporte The Accidental Billionaires, when is that out?

Lisa Bettany Creepy Zuckerberg.

Leo Laporte Yeah, creepy Zuckerberg.

Steve Gibson When do we think Google Me is going to happen?

Leo Laporte Do you know all evidences points to soon.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte Google says it’s announcing its music service this summer that could be what through September 21 or something, and I think Google is going to make a big push along these lines, I really do. But can it win over – I mean if everybody is on Facebook why would you go anywhere else?

Steve Gibson Right, you’re in that network.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, it’s beyond critical mass, it’s just...

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Lisa Bettany ...rolling out and this is the audience I was talking before that has no tech knowledge or computer knowledge but they want to play Farmville and they want to...

Leo Laporte They want to catch up with their high school sweethearts, they want to hook up with their former employee, co-employees that kind of thing. I think that that’s –

Steve Gibson That it’s being used for business a lot now too. I see Facebook being mentioned on corporate sites and corporate fliers and I think all over the place.

Leo Laporte Yeah. But that’s that Old Spice thing trying to be hip, right?

Lisa Bettany Yeah. I mean look at LinkedIn and where LinkedIn – I mean LinkedIn used to be the sort of business.

Leo Laporte Right.

Lisa Bettany And Facebook was like where you put your embarrassing drunk photos. And now it’s like LinkedIn sort of fallen off and it’s all about Facebook and people –

Leo Laporte I’m waiting to feel out of touch because I don’t have a Facebook account, I killed mine.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte And I am just waiting to see am I going to –

John C. Dvorak You can start over tomorrow Leo, you’d have your old numbers back about – in about a week.

Leo Laporte But I don’t – but then wouldn’t that be kind of embarrassing to say oh, ah, I came back?

John C. Dvorak No, you have to stay off it now, Leo, put your stake in the ground.

Leo Laporte I can’t go – I’ll be having my tail between my legs.

Steve Gibson Do you miss it, Leo? Was it doing something for you that...

Lisa Bettany I miss you.

Steve Gibson you really feel like you don’t have now?

Leo Laporte No, I don’t – I mean that’s an interesting question. In fact when you do delete your Facebook account you get this row of peoples’ pictures randomly chosen from your followers saying, Lisa Bettany is going to miss you.

Lisa Bettany We miss you.

Leo Laporte Your mother is going to miss you. So there is this big guilt trip they lay on you. I don’t miss using it, no, and I don’t feel like I am in – any less in touch with Lisa because I don’t see your Facebook posts. I do feel like I am less in touch with some people that I don’t really care about. But if you really care –

Anand Shimpi Yeah, I mean ultimately like for me, I – the people that I am closest to I still call and like to see on a regular basis, right, and because Facebook is so public, but I mean I do have to be a censored version of myself there, simply because it – I mean that’s I think you’re dealing with the privacy issues.

Leo Laporte I am willing to bet everybody here uses Facebook not personally but as a marketing tool, as a publicity tool, as a – that kind of thing.

Lisa Bettany Yeah, but I am also...

Anand Shimpi I don’t.

Lisa Bettany ...I am also at the point where I don’t call people. I don’t see people in real life. All my friends are on the Internet. Like I don’t – I mean this –

Leo Laporte Somebody said –

Anand Shimpi But – so you don’t have like that one person that you’ve known all your life, that you do pick up the phone and call, you don’t have like that one or does one or two people?

Leo Laporte She’s left broken-heart, strewn behind her.

Lisa Bettany I like being in my little world where I am in my dinosaur pajamas and I’m in my little safe place and I am just communicating via the Internet and –

Leo Laporte So you like Facebook because it lets you wear dinosaur pajamas?

Lisa Bettany And that it’s accessible.

Leo Laporte You don’t have to have a outward face – so you use it personally.

Lisa Bettany I do.

Leo Laporte Anand, it sounds like you use it professionally mostly?

Anand Shimpi No, I use it for both but the thing is that like, so I’ve got readers, manufacturers, and my actual friends as friends have gone on Facebook, but I do the same thing when I am out like having dinner with – if you and I will have dinner somewhere, I’d still watch what I said, because I don’t know who’s the rat.

Leo Laporte Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you and I might plan dinner on Facebook. Yes?

Anand Shimpi That’s true. Yeah, if we wanted to make everyone else feel really awkward for not being invited, yeah.

Leo Laporte John, what do you think? You’re pooh-poohing all this?

John C. Dvorak No, I mean I think Facebook serves a purpose, I think a lot of people find it useful. I just have not – I mean I subscribe to certain things and I get on board with this and that and once in a while you say something, I’d say well that’s a good idea, I’ll give it a shot, because you’re always – you –

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s what I miss is that kind of chance but I use Twitter that way a little bit.

John C. Dvorak I use Twitter to get some information back and forth. I use LinkedIn. The rest of the stuff I haven’t been using, I have been thinking about Foursquare and Whrrl I’m probably going to play with because the CEO is an interesting character.

Leo Laporte Whrrl’s kind of neat, yeah. I’ve played with it a little bit. Foursquare is where everybody is.

John C. Dvorak It’s just like – Facebook is just like another thing to do. And then they say it’s addictive for women mostly. And I see my wife and daughter, and they’re on this thing all the time.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak I think I don’t want to be like that.

Leo Laporte Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Bettany It’s too big of an opportunity in the marketing.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Lisa Bettany I mean –

Leo Laporte That’s what I think. That’s the one thing –

Anand Shimpi Well, see I’m nervous that it varies depending on what you do – so you’re a photographer?

Lisa Bettany Yes.

Anand Shimpi And so it actually works really, really well for photographers.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Anand Shimpi That’s one thing I’d say. From my perspective, I don’t know, it’s like – it’s a great way to stalk people. Like, that’s the number one thing I see people doing is just learning information about other people that they don’t really have the means to get any other way.

Leo Laporte That’s true.

Anand Shimpi And in terms of whether or not like Google’s attempt is going to do anything to it. Ultimately at the end of the day, it’s the same thing for any market, right? Market share is gained and lost in periods of transition. There is no real transition right now for social networking. So I think things are going to stay the way they are until that next big idea comes forward and generally speaking new companies and smaller companies are ones to kind of get onboard with new ideas before the established players. I mean I think that’s the only time we’ll see a change in market share.

Leo Laporte Google just acquired a company this week called Metaweb, which is a search engine that they say connects data in more meaningful ways than just links. And some have said that the reason Google wants them, they’re obviously a very competent search engine, but they want to get smarter about the results they’re turning in and frankly it’s being Jon Miller, writing in PCWorld says this is actually going right up against Facebook, this is part of Google’s attempt to go to continue to keep their dominance against Facebook because Facebook combining the social graph with search results gives you all of this deep rich information and Google’s afraid they cannot do that. Google said we’ve acquired Metaweb, a company that maintains an open database of things in the world. Working together we want to improve search to make the web richer and more meaningful for everyone which is the kind of silly rhetoric that Mark Zuckerberg has used about Facebook.

Lisa Bettany Well, think of all the data they are amassing like…

Leo Laporte Facebook has more data.

Lisa Bettany It’s ridiculous…

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Lisa Bettany …and that translates to a lot of money.

Leo Laporte Right, potentially.

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte If they can convince users that it’s okay to reveal this information.

Steve Gibson Is Google able to index into Facebook?

Leo Laporte No.

Steve Gibson Because non-Facebook users are not able to see Facebook either.

Leo Laporte Right.

Steve Gibson You have to join in order to be part of the network.

Leo Laporte Right. So Facebook has an advantage.

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Leo Laporte Because they have information that Google can’t get.

Steve Gibson Yeah.

Leo Laporte WikiLeaks is in the news, of course the U.S. government would love to – love to get the guy who started WikiLeaks.

John C. Dvorak This is bull.

Leo Laporte Especially since he released that secret video of the U.S. air strike in Iraq. The site’s founder Julian Assange made a rare public appearance at TEDGlobal. He said, we’re overwhelmed by our growth. The site can’t keep up with the volume of new material because it doesn’t have enough people to verify it. He says the attention that WikiLeaks’ gotten has helped it because people are just great. I found a place to give this information to.

John C. Dvorak Yeah. CIA honey pot. CIA honey pot.

Leo Laporte Really?

John C. Dvorak Hello.

Leo Laporte Really? So you’re saying don’t give information to – well, if you do anonymize it I guess.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, if you go through a Tor network or something but then again…

Steve Gibson I ran across a rumor about a month ago which I was never able to pursue, I didn’t really spend that much time but the rumor was that WikiLeaks was formed by monitoring a Tor exit node…

John C. Dvorak Oh.

Steve Gibson And capturing documents that were coming out of the Tor anonymizing system…

Leo Laporte So I think we are going to look more into this Julian Assange.

John C. Dvorak Interesting.

Leo Laporte Yeah. I don’t know, I think WikiLeaks is actually fantastic. Don’t you?

Steve Gibson It seems like a very good thing, it’s like a pro-Internet sort of thing.

Leo Laporte Yeah. And I think Assange deserves a lot of credit. WikiLeaks operates out of Iceland and Sweden among other places. He cannot come to the U.S., in fact he said he canceled three public appearances in the U.S. including one in June at the Conference of Investigative Reporters and Editors in Las Vegas because of his fear of the U.S. authorities, I don’t think it’s a CIA, John unless they’ve got – they’ve really gotten clever.

John C. Dvorak Gotten clever?

Leo Laporte I think there’s no evidence…

John C. Dvorak It’s all they do is they’re clever…

Leo Laporte Clever? Have you read Legacy of Ashes, really? Clever?

John C. Dvorak I am totally suspicious too, well…

Leo Laporte All right.

John C. Dvorak Some bonehead new things they’ve done, but the – I’m not – well, I’m just not buying – this whole story – the whole back story behind that operation is just…

Leo Laporte Fascinating.

John C. Dvorak …that’s just doesn’t sound right.

Leo Laporte I love it. I love your conspiracy minded theories.

John C. Dvorak It’s not if I’m nervous, it’s not a conspiracy, some guys worrying for the same, was there conspiracy, I mean, it’s just a business.

Leo Laporte You thought Facebook was a CIA honey pot.

John C. Dvorak I think Facebook might be.

Leo Laporte Facebook, well, we know Facebook has an investment from the CIA’s venture…

John C. Dvorak Exactly.

Leo Laporte …arm.

John C. Dvorak And you don’t think they’re investing and then saying, well, whatever you guys want to do, just go do it, we’ll cash in later, just so you know…

Leo Laporte The chat room says I’m naïve because I don’t believe it. I’m just naïve.

John C. Dvorak A whole bunch of people are saying that. Shut down the chat room immediately.

Leo Laporte I’m sweet an innocent.

John C. Dvorak Do your Nixon. Get back to that.

Leo Laporte [Nixon voice] ‘I’m going to wear my dinosaur pajamas, and do this commercial in dinosaur jammies.’


Leo Laporte It’s time very quickly to talk about GoToMeeting from our friends at Citrix, the affordable way to meet with clients and colleagues. Look, a business trip, it’s ridiculous, $1,000 according to American Express, the average cost of a business trip. I used to fly up to Vancouver state, the beautiful Opus Hotel. You have lovely flights on Virgin America, I would just – it’d be fabulous. But $1,000 later, whereas for $49 a month you have as many meetings as you want, as long as you want, as often as you want, up to 15 people at the same time, you show them what’s on your computer, they can show you what’s on their computer, you can pass control around, you can collaborate together on the same document.

GoToMeeting is amazing. If you are still traveling for business or perhaps even worse, spending time on conference calls, which has to be the single most painful thing ever, try GoToMeeting. You try it free right now by going to, 30 days free. Please do me a favor, give it a try, you will I think love it, it’s how we do all our meetings.

In fact, if I could figure out a way to do TWiT with GoToMeeting, you’d probably like that Lisa, you wouldn’t have to go through all that traffic on the Golden Gate Bridge. Sigh. But then I wouldn’t get to see you, when Lisa is here, I feel like I’m on my own private version of the holodeck.

[Duck quack sound effect]

Leo Laporte John, was that a duck call? Do you actually have a duck call?

John C. Dvorak I do, a real one too, an ACME, which is one of the world’s great duck calls.

[Duck quack sound effect]

Leo Laporte This show brought to you by one of the world’s great duck calls.

John C. Dvorak Now, by the way, these things are very handy. That’s the ACME duck call, they were made in England. These things are quite handy in a theater during when they’re showing some very serious and it’s like it’s starting to get pretty bad, you just let the duck call lose and you get a huge laugh.

Leo Laporte You can’t lose! It’s a guaranteed laugh.

[Duck quack sound effect]

Leo Laporte I wish, I’d had it during – I want to see Adam Sandler’s Grown Ups, do not go see that movie, there is not a laugh in the whole movie and I could have used that duck call a couple of times. Lisa, so you played with the DROID X? Is it too big for you?

Lisa Bettany I don’t know if this can fit in my back pocket.

Leo Laporte Yeah, maybe not.

Lisa Bettany The way I’d like it to.

Leo Laporte Yeah. You don’t want to sit on a phone, though, really? You would put your phone in the back pocket?

Lisa Bettany I do. Well, I’m not a very good girl. I finally got a purse like an actual girl purse, because before I was just carrying my camera and my camera bag, so I got a girl purse. So like…

Leo Laporte You know, come to think of it, I have never seen you carry a purse.

Lisa Bettany I know, I…

Leo Laporte I never – I didn’t even think about that.

John C. Dvorak She has her men carry the purse.

Leo Laporte Yeah. I carry a purse. So I guess I’m a very good girl.

John C. Dvorak That’s a murse, though, I think.

Leo Laporte It’s a murse.

John C. Dvorak So by the way, I carry – I put my E71 Nokia in my back pocket too and sit on it constantly.

Leo Laporte Do you?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Not only is it bad for the phone but I think it could cause sciatica.

John C. Dvorak Oh, maybe, maybe. But I have…

Leo Laporte I haven’t used the word sciatica, since I used Old Spice. ‘I feel like I’m grandpa. Grandpa.’ Actually, you know Old Spice, Mentos comes to mind, remember Mentos, this was…

Lisa Bettany Yeah.

Leo Laporte … grandma’s mint until they started advertising on MTV.

Lisa Bettany That’s true.

Leo Laporte And then it became hip, the fresh-maker.

Lisa Bettany Oh, when then they – but they did the Coke, the Pepsi…

Leo Laporte And then they put it in Pepsi and became even hipper, but have you ever eaten a Mentos? No, they are horrible.

Lisa Bettany I love them.

John C. Dvorak They are not that bad.

Lisa Bettany I like them. They’re chewy mints.

Leo Laporte Okay, I predict…

John C. Dvorak Yes, they’re chewy.

Leo Laporte I predict a resurgence of Old Spice based on this small sampling of consumers who think Mentos is hip.

John C. Dvorak No one said they were hip, they were – they’re just chewy and tasty.

Lisa Bettany They’re delicious.

Anand Shimpi See, I never got the whole like mint as some sort of a refreshing candy thing. It is – it doesn’t make sense to me.

Leo Laporte Really?

Anand Shimpi Yeah. You know I just – I need it for mint purposes, right? I don’t need it for like any other purpose.

Leo Laporte How actually…

Anand Shimpi Some candy.

Leo Laporte I want to ask you – and maybe that’s cultural, Anand. Did you grow up in the States or did you grow up in India?

Anand Shimpi No, I grew up in Massachusetts. Actually only my dad is Indian, my mom is Iranian.

Leo Laporte Oh, interesting. I was curious.

Anand Shimpi Yeah, but as you know if you have Indian in you, just – it kind of takes over any other race.

Leo Laporte Well, the name is what made me think you’re Indian.

Anand Shimpi Yeah.

Leo Laporte There is quite a controversy about this iPhone app that is in ad for a skin product that they sold Vaseline face-whitening that is sold in India to literally whiten your skin. And they made an iPhone app of that out of this which is kind of controversial.

John C. Dvorak What’s the app do?

Leo Laporte Yeah. You transform your face, it whitens you.

John C. Dvorak Or it shows you what you look like.

Anand Shimpi So you actually – I was just in India back in December. And it’s funny, it’s like human nature, right? You always want what you don’t have. And so everyone here wants to be tanned and everyone over there just wants to be whiter.

Leo Laporte Exactly!

Anand Shimpi You see like billboards, right, of creams and stuff like that, that will whiten your skin. It’s just like – I mean, humans are weird creatures, man. They are just ultimately what it is.

John C. Dvorak We saw a similar product in Japan.

Leo Laporte We risk cancer to look more like you. And then but go to India and they want this – there’s a Vaseline Men BE PREPARED page. And there’s a Facebook app – I’m sorry, I thought it was an iPhone app – Facebook app which will whiten your profile image. Permanently, I guess.

John C. Dvorak Permanently?

Leo Laporte Yes. It’s the Michael Jackson…

John C. Dvorak That doesn’t make any sense at all.

Leo Laporte Well, you know what, John, you’re not alone, because a Wall Street Journal reporter tested the Vaseline skin whitening Facebook app, and remained unconvinced of its result. Now that’s hard hitting journalism!

Thank goodness – I don’t know, I just thought I’d bring that up, I don’t know if there’s a story in there or not.

John C. Dvorak Yes, boy, that killed the show.

Leo Laporte I know, maybe I should just go home now. I got nothing else to say, anybody else have anything to talk about?

John C. Dvorak You killed the show, Leo!

Leo Laporte I literally killed the show! Well, it’s 5:00 O’clock, it’s time to go home.

John C. Dvorak Oh. So it is. So it is.

Leo Laporte So it is. John C. Dvorak is at Channel Dvorak. That’s the place to go if you’d like to see what John’s been up to, and he’s been up to a lot. Mostly, no good.

Lisa Bettany Well, there is the…

John C. Dvorak Well, I still didn’t get to my 69,000 followers with the show here.

Leo Laporte Damn, All right, last chance, we can’t stop the show.

Steve Gibson Well, it’s only live. Wait till the thing airs. When this thing goes – airs, 300,000 people are going to hear it, and they’re all going to start following you, John.

Leo Laporte You know what I like, though? I really like the idea of holding the show hostage. Like we’re going to stay on the air until John – how many do you want, John?

John C. Dvorak I need only 60 more – 59 more people and I’ll be at 69,000. That’s all I wanted to get to today.

Leo Laporte You – you just – well that’s easy enough.

Steve Gibson Chat room? Chat room?

John C. Dvorak THErealDVORAK, yeah, I mean how hard can it be?

Leo Laporte All right, let’s see. You have 68,943. 57 people, that’s all we need. Get those phones ringing, ladies and gentlemen. We’re going to stay on the air until John C. Dvorak has 69,000 – thank god he didn’t say 70 – 69,000 followers. All right, everybody, please, go to – you know what, the problem, John, partly is you’ve probably saturated the TWiT audience.

John C. Dvorak I think so. I think so. But how did you…

Leo Laporte Oh, we’re at 68,956. Let’s roll that tote board and see…

John C. Dvorak Jerry, do Jerry Lewis.

Leo Laporte [Sings] ‘You’ll never walk alone, John, we love you.’

I want to tell you, this man, this man, this John C. Dvorak, this man he does this for love – and there it is, ladies and gentlemen! We have 69,009!

John C. Dvorak There we go. Thank you very much, thank you very much, I’ll be here all week.

Leo Laporte Thank god, we can cancel this show. Oh, man, I thought we were going to be here all night.

Lisa Bettany is at, that’s where you go to find her photography. Now that you’re moving to the Bay Area, I know that Alex Lindsay and I are both fighting over you. We both want you to do shows for us. So I’d love a photography show with you.

Lisa Bettany Oh. I would love to do a photography show.

Leo Laporte And I’m sure John – I mean Alex has probably already come to you.

Lisa Bettany Can I put my plug in?

Leo Laporte Yes, what’s your plug?

Lisa Bettany My…

Leo Laporte Congratulations! Wow! That was a big story that I completely forgot CameraPlus, wait a minute, now tell us about this. It said you made like $150,000 in the first month!

Lisa Bettany A bit more than that.

Leo Laporte You’re kidding me!

Lisa Bettany Yes.

Leo Laporte Now, was that the giveaway, you think, that put that over the top?

Lisa Bettany Well, I mean the app is great, so I think it just sort of – I mean obviously there’s the marketing power behind tap tap tap, they’re amazing and they’ve made great apps, so there’s that behind it. And I think just a lot of people are sharing the photos, obviously my great effects.

Leo Laporte So it’s $1.99, and you sold like $200,000 worth? What…

Lisa Bettany Well, how many – I think we’ve done a quarter of a million.

Leo Laporte In the first month?

Lisa Bettany Yes.

Leo Laporte Holy cow!

So I think I should get a job with you, forget you getting a job with me.

Lisa Bettany Well, I mean – this is – I haven’t got the money yet, but it will certainly change my life.

Leo Laporte It will! That’s great! That’s why you and Peter are buying a house. So now it can be a girl-house. CameraPlus, the ultimate photo app, go to Wait a minute, why am I looking at John C. Dvorak when I could be looking at Lisa Bettany?

John C. Dvorak There you go. Better idea.

Lisa Bettany It’s the duck call, the duck call is…

Leo Laporte The duck is calling me.

Steve Gibson I just ordered one online, by the way.

Leo Laporte Did you really?

Steve Gibson Amazon has them.

Leo Laporte Did you really?

Steve Gibson I need a duck call.

John C. Dvorak Oh, they do, good. But you should order Lisa’s product. She – people have to realize that this woman is really a outstanding photographer.

Leo Laporte She really is. She’s amazing. I really love her stuff.

John C. Dvorak And she needs to probably become better known as such.

[Video Presentation] (105:05)

Leo Laporte And my dinosaur genes.

[Video Presentation] (105:11)

Leo Laporte So, this is, I can’t stop it.

[Video Presentation] (105:16)

John C. Dvorak I can’t stop it.

Lisa Bettany It just keeps rolling.

Leo Laporte If you want to see more of Lisa Bettany or go to her website mostlylisa. I am sure you have a plug on mostlylisa, right.

Lisa Bettany Yes, a little bit.

Leo Laporte Yes,

Lisa Bettany A little bit.

Leo Laporte Thank you for being here, Lisa. It’s great to see you. Thank you, Steve Gibson. Steve is the host of Security Now a regular feature of the TWiT network every single Wednesday we record the show. He comes out every, is it Friday, yes, Friday.

Steve Gibson No, Thursday.

Leo Laporte Thursday’s on the TWiT network.

Steve Gibson Record on Wednesday, shows up on Thursdays.

Leo Laporte Find out more at and of course that’s where you can also get Steve’s great SpinRite, the world’s finest hard drive and maintenance utility.

Steve Gibson And my twitter account is SGGRC.

Leo Laporte I suppose we’ve got…

John C. Dvorak Late in plugs.

Leo Laporte I suppose we got to go through everybody’s twitter account. Do you know why this is a big deal, John because Steve was like the last twitter holdout.

Steve Gibson Now it’s Jerry who is the last twitter holdout.

Leo Laporte Did Jerry start one?

Steve Gibson I don’t know.

John C. Dvorak Jerry can get big numbers pretty quick.

Leo Laporte Yes, absolutely. Steve Gibson is SGGRC. Lisa you’re mostlylisa on twitter or...

Lisa Bettany I am mostlylisa. Are we going to stay here until I reach my Linux milestone?

Leo Laporte And what is your goal. What is your goal?

Lisa Bettany I don’t know…

Leo Laporte Let’s see what Lisa is doing and I don’t want to leave.

Lisa Bettany I mean it’s sad when…

Leo Laporte You got 21,000 followers, now come on you’re doing fine.

Lisa Bettany I like the quality. I think I love my Twitter…

Leo Laporte That what’s people say…

John C. Dvorak That’s what they all say with those kinds of numbers.

Leo Laporte I have good followers.

Lisa Bettany I do, though, they post, they love looking at people’s pictures, come on.

[Duck quack sound effect]

Leo Laporte It’s the quality, not the quantity., SGGRC on twitter. Thank you, Steve, for being here. I really appreciate it.

Steve Gibson Thanks Leo. Glad to be here.

Leo Laporte Anand! It was really fun, a great show, Steve came, jumped in at the last minute and I appreciate it. Anand is at It is the site for people who are interested in the nitty-gritty details of hardware, Mobile Now as well as desktops, motherboard, CPUs. It’s always been a great site, better all the time. I am so glad you could join us today, Anand thank you.

Anand Shimpi Thank you, sir, it was awesome.

Leo Laporte Great to have you. And what is your twitter handle?

Anand Shimpi Anand Shimpi.

Leo Laporte Easy enough, do you use it for any or just personal?

Anand Shimpi I use it just to kind of followers get like little tidbits on stuff I am working on, you might see a benchmark or two or like we have been using it to show off like smartphone battery life and stuff like that as we finish the tests and there you see the re-tweet.

Leo Laporte I see the re-tweet.

Anand Shimpi Yup. So yes, you just get kind of, little bit of inside info on what I am working on, when I am working on and things I am running into and stuff like that.

Leo Laporte Well, let’s get his follower account up to as long as we’re at it. Thank you, John, Anand, Steve and Lisa. Thank you all for being here. I want to do a little plug from, I don’t usually do much plugging but we are going to be in Detroit in a couple of weeks. We are going to the Rouge plant to take a tour of the Ford plant there on July 30 and then July 31 we are going to be at Maker Faire at the Henry Ford Museum. I can’t wait, we will stream both of those live at but that’s not the plug. The plug is I would like you to come see us. We are doing a meet up Friday, July 30 at the Hyatt Dearborn in the Archimedes lounge 7:00 to 10:00 p.m. So if you are in the Detroit area we will be at the Hyatt Dearborn Archimedes lounge 7:00 to 10:00 p.m.

If you are going to go, we are trying to get a headcount because this will accommodate a few dozen people, but if everyone who listens to the show shows up, I am going to need Tiger stadium. So we may move the venue, I don’t know. So email if you are going to go, okay. We would love to see you and truthfully I think there will be plenty of room, Archimedes lounge downstairs 7:00 to 10:00 p.m. Friday, July 30 and do watch our live stream from Dearborn. It’s going to be a lot of fun on July 30 and July 31 of this month.

You can watch this show. We do it live every Sunday 3:00 p.m. Pacific time 6:00 p.m. Eastern that is 2200 UTC at but you can also subscribe. We got audio and video available at I am Leo Laporte. Thanks for joining us, another TWiT. Stay tuned, by the way, Tom Merritt [indiscernible] (109:50) stay tuned.

Another TWiT is in the can.

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