TWiT 264/Transcript

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Episode 264


This transcript is provided by our friends at Pods in Print

Introduction Netcasts you love, from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte Audio bandwidth for this WEEK in TECH is provided by Winamp. Subscribe to TWiT and all your favorite podcasts with the ultimate media player. Download it for free at Video bandwidth for TWiT is provided by Cachefly at

This is TWiT, this WEEK in TECH, Episode 264, for September 5, 2010: Blackballed.

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This is TWiT, this WEEK in TECH. Hello, everybody. We’re going to do a great little show this week talking about latest the tech news. Here in studio with me – I am really – I love this panel. Of course my bud, John C. Dvorak, is here, And he has a new booze newsletter.

John C. Dvorak Summer wine.

Leo Laporte Wine. Booze, wine.

John C. Dvorak Somebody who wants to get on the mailing list, just send me an email, and put wine mailing list in the subject line and I’ll put you on the list. It’s free.

Leo Laporte That’s awesome.

John C. Dvorak It only comes once in a while. So when I see some huge deal at Costco, and after I am in --

Leo Laporte Yeah, you get it and then --

John C. Dvorak Then I tell people, hey, go, sell it out – or K&L Liquors, just a bunch of these different places.

Leo Laporte Also in studio, really pleased for the first time – I know Andrew because he did The Gillmor Gang on a fairly regular basis and in fact, was there with the famous incident with Mike Arrington. Andrew Keen is here, the author of The Cult of the Amateur. Why the Internet is screwing it up for the rest of us. No, that wasn’t quite it.

Andrew Keen How the Internet is killing our culture?

Leo Laporte Killing our culture. Andrew does – you do a show, a regular show on TechCrunch TV.

Andrew Keen Yes.

Leo Laporte It’s quite good. I really enjoy.

Andrew Keen Quite meaning reasonably good or very good?

Leo Laporte Well, if I were a British, quite would be --

Andrew Keen Quite would be reasonably good.

Leo Laporte Reasonably good.

Andrew Keen American quite means very.

Leo Laporte So --

John C. Dvorak Quite.

Leo Laporte Quite, it’s quite good.

John C. Dvorak Quite, quite.

Leo Laporte Quite, quite good. Wait a minute. Who is that? There he is. Ladies and gentlemen, in his beautiful mountain layer, British Garden south, Jerry Pournelle,, the man who really inspired my career by writing those great Chaos Manor columns at Byte magazine, still writes Chaos Manor. You can get a link to that at Hey, Jerry, good to see you.

Jerry Pournelle Hi.

Leo Laporte I shouldn’t call it British Garden, that’s kind of insulting. I apologize.

Jerry Pournelle No, you really shouldn’t. I get – it’s a beautiful place.

Leo Laporte It has the Bavarian feel. Let’s just put it that way.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, I don’t wonder that Hitler liked it. But I do not think that --

Leo Laporte No endorsement.

Jerry Pournelle -- just because one like British Garden, one becomes --

John C. Dvorak Hitler.

Leo Laporte No implied endorsement. And you don’t have a St. Bernard – a German Shepherd named Schatzi, so.

Jerry Pournelle I not only don’t have a German Shepherd, but nobody else does. There has never been in the history of mankind, there has never been a case where a German Shepherd was known to shepherd anything.


Leo Laporte There’s a story here.

Jerry Pournelle I’ll stick to police dogs mainly but --

Leo Laporte Thank you. The Alsatians.

Jerry Pournelle Alsatians, they come from Alsatia. They are not really German even.

Leo Laporte Man, that’s fantastic. We’ve broken Godwin’s law and learned about dogs all within 30 seconds.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah.

Leo Laporte And now, John will don a fez. And all in favor of Atatürk’s rule that no fezes should be allowed inside The TWiT Cottage, raise their hands. So, John, I think we got to do something different today in honor of Andrew Keen being here. He doesn’t really know what we do on TWiT or he wouldn’t be here probably.

I think we let the chat room choose the stories. There certainly was a lot of tech news. Apple had an announcement today – or this week. Google’s got an announcement coming up on Wednesday. It’s kind of mysterious. But I think you wanted to lead, John, with the story that --

John C. Dvorak Oh, the good story.

Leo Laporte The good one. Craigslist is dropping adult ads in the U.S.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, no more hookers on Craigslist.

Leo Laporte The last time we talked about this, I actually went to Craigslist and --

John C. Dvorak To look for hookers?

Leo Laporte Yes, just to see.

John C. Dvorak Oh, okay.

Leo Laporte And I got in trouble with my wife.

John C. Dvorak Was she dogging your searches or what’s the deal?

Leo Laporte No, I drove --

John C. Dvorak She looked at your – did you click the privacy button and get rid of all those searches.

Leo Laporte She’s actually not that sophisticated. She doesn’t know how to do history searches. But we were driving by a place in town. And I said, oh, yeah, that’s a massage parlor. I saw that on Craigslist. She said what?

John C. Dvorak Maybe just shut up, it would be easier.

Leo Laporte And she said, eh and I – it does sound kind of frankly pathetic when you say, well, honey, we were covering it on the show. And I just was --

John C. Dvorak Oh, yeah, right. I read Playboy for the article.

Leo Laporte Research. It was all research. That’s what – when radio hosts get in trouble for the sites they visit online, it’s always research.

John C. Dvorak Didn’t work for Bernie Ward though.

Leo Laporte Didn’t work for Bernie. No. Is he in jail? I think he is.

John C. Dvorak I think so, yeah, unfortunately.

Leo Laporte One of our local radio show hosts.

John C. Dvorak It’s an inside joke.

Leo Laporte So Gawker --

Jerry Pournelle Is that what Tiger Woods called it?

Leo Laporte Research. I am doing research.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, he wanted to see how his new clubs will work.

Leo Laporte So I want to thank the folks. I want to thank Nick Denton and the folks at Valleywag for putting together a Post-Craigslist Guide to Buying Sex Online so that you really don’t have to worry so much. And I am not going to give you the addresses. But let’s just say there are plenty of places still to go. Why did Craigslist dump adult stuff?

John C. Dvorak They became the lightning rod for this whole bogus kind of witch hunt. And the fact of the matter is, it’s now going to create more problems than it solves – this elimination of this --

Leo Laporte Why is that?

John C. Dvorak Well, because you want to compartmentalize the hookers. And I believe, by the way, this is why I’ve been pushing for almost 20 years the .xxx top level domain.

Leo Laporte And that was the fight over it, by the way, was that they didn’t want – even the pornographers didn’t want xxx because they felt like they would be ghettoized.

John C. Dvorak They were ghetto – that’s the idea. That’s why you want it but --

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, but – red light districts, for god’s sake.

John C. Dvorak It’s exactly the same as a red light district.

Leo Laporte But do you want a red light – who wants a red light district?

John C. Dvorak If there’s going to --

Jerry Pournelle Baltimore sure as hell did for a lot of – for most of its existence.

Leo Laporte In Amsterdam --

Jerry Pournelle Baltimore?

Leo Laporte No. I don’t, Jerry.

John C. Dvorak You want a red light district.

Leo Laporte I just want my wife to know, I do not remember the street.

Andrew Keen Amsterdam is a very --

Leo Laporte Amsterdam has a red light district, doesn’t it?

Andrew Keen Yeah, but it’s very small.

Leo Laporte In fact, that’s what they named it.

John C. Dvorak No, actually they have about 3 of them.

Leo Laporte Isn’t that what they named it, red light fork, because of the red lights in Amsterdam?

John C. Dvorak I don’t know.

Andrew Keen Has anyone ever said to you, it’s very small?

Leo Laporte [Sings] Roxanne!

John C. Dvorak I got the joke.

Leo Laporte I got it too. I just was going to --

Jerry Pournelle I have no idea whether the street in Baltimore is as big as it used to be but back when – back in 70s and 60s when I had aerospace contracts with – over there at Fort Detrick and those places, sometimes we – bunch of us would go down and tour down through that street not for buying anything, but just to look at, and that was an amazing place. It really was.

Leo Laporte I don’t even know if I want to ask any questions about this, so.

Jerry Pournelle You can ask questions because any answer I gave you I guarantee is broadcastable.

John C. Dvorak Do they have – still have hookers in Los Angeles around Hollywood Boulevard or Sunset or anything like that? I don’t know.

Jerry Pournelle Do they have anything else?

John C. Dvorak I guess that’s a yes.

Leo Laporte I just would like to remind everybody --

Jerry Pournelle And you may get them in any sex you – any gender that you prefer.

John C. Dvorak So here is the problem I have with the Craigslist deal. Now these girls who are going to be like --

Leo Laporte Where are they going to be? They are going to be everywhere. They’ll be everywhere.

John C. Dvorak It’s like scrambling around like ants that somebody – you kick over the anthill and the ants go all over the place. And so you’re going to be looking up – you want a PENTAX lens or a Nikon or a Canon lens and it’s going to be an ad for a hooker right there in something else, so they are going to trick you into seeing these ads all over the place.

Leo Laporte That’s true. I don’t want that.

John C. Dvorak That’s why you want this to get away.

Leo Laporte A xxx domain which we do have now is a great idea. Although what does do? Does go to xxx now or are they going to still be

John C. Dvorak It’s not xxx. You don’t have to be in the xxx. The idea is to slowly gravitate people like that to the xxx.

Leo Laporte All right, you want something scary? Watch or listen to this video from This is a video that they aired on Times Square over and over again spending millions of dollars to scare you about Google.

That looks like Eric Schmidt with a Nazi moustache. He actually has a Hitler moustache.

[Video Presentation]

Jerry Pournelle They should play the audio of that on the radio.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen the video yet, Jerry? And this is really terrifying.

Jerry Pournelle Yes, I went and looked for it after I heard you play the audio.

Leo Laporte I mean it’s terrifying.

[Presentation Continues]

Well, the Rose Foundation has given millions of dollars to

John C. Dvorak Kevin Rose?

Leo Laporte I don’t think it’s Kevin. And they opted to spend some of this money making this very high quality profession.

Jerry Pournelle If it is going to have any effect whatsoever, the people who know who that is, are not likely to be much affected by that ad.

Leo Laporte That’s a good point.

[Presentation Continues]

First of all, question one, ad hominem, right, I mean what did Eric Schmidt do to piss these guys off? Right?

John C. Dvorak Something.

Leo Laporte I mean this is terrifying.

John C. Dvorak I have no idea.

Leo Laporte This is terrifying? Question two, is Google, by the way, and I’ll give them the plug here, your privacy is no laughing matter, go to

Jerry Pournelle And get bored.

Leo Laporte Well --

John C. Dvorak This could be a shakedown.

Leo Laporte It’s a little odd.

John C. Dvorak You know there is a lot of these operations out there and, Jerry, you know who half of them are. They seem like public service operations and then they find some corporation and then they essentially shake them down for money. And they go after --

Leo Laporte Is that what Greenpeace did to Apple?

John C. Dvorak It’s a possibility.

Leo Laporte Yes.

John C. Dvorak I would say almost half of these groups do these constantly. And there is all kinds of stories about it and --

Jerry Pournelle We all know a bunch of civil rights groups that do that.

John C. Dvorak They do it constantly

Jerry Pournelle They’ve been doing it for 20 years.

John C. Dvorak That’s how they get funded. And there is – and this looks like a shakedown video to me because there is – I mean it’s just ridiculous.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Andrew Keen It was the background on the foundation?

Leo Laporte Well, I’m trying to – I’m looking at it. It looks pretty responsible, reliable --

John C. Dvorak They all look responsible but they still do shakedowns.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak That’s how you get big.

Andrew Keen That’s a bit cynical though, isn’t it?

John C. Dvorak It’s a fact.

Leo Laporte Well, but, Andrew, do you think they are right in attacking Google in this way? Does that make sense what you just saw there?

Andrew Keen I think it’s obviously a little exaggerated, but there are some relevant themes.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, here is the question. Google gives them $10 million the next day and that ad goes away?

Jerry Pournelle Try the Reverend Jesse Jackson.

John C. Dvorak No, Jesse Jackson is well known for pulling this.

Andrew Keen But Google also play the game. I mean they – the rumor is they fund a lot of the network neutralities and the stuff, so –

Leo Laporte Yeah, well, I would if I were them too. Now this is the link they want you to go to. It says tell Congress we want – bandwidth limit exceeded, great, I guess it’s working too well. Tell congress that we want a do not track me list if you try to go to that site – bandwidth limit exceeded.

John C. Dvorak [Indiscernible] (12:51) can’t hear. You gotta work the mic.

Leo Laporte So – but I guess what they are lobbying for --

Jerry Pournelle Is this a good or a bad example of the need for network neutrality?

Leo Laporte Well, I don’t think this is network neutrality. I mean it’s free speech. These guys have the right to run what is --

Jerry Pournelle No, I meant that you were getting bandwidth exceeded --

Leo Laporte Well, yeah, that’s a good question. They obviously should have taken some of the Rose’s --

Jerry Pournelle Maybe I’ll show you what we think of this.

Leo Laporte They should have taken some of the Rose’s money and bought a bigger server perhaps. But this shows you the success of the campaign. Here is what I said. Now you probably heard me say this on the radio, Jerry, okay, fine, you should – we should watch Google, absolutely. I’m not against paying attention to what Google’s paying attention to. But don’t forget, your Internet service provider who knows far more than Google about what you do all the time and has a box in most cases in their rack that the Federal government mandated that keeps track of this for several years. That’s what you should be – why aren’t they talking about that?

Andrew Keen So does the ISP --

John C. Dvorak Or the operation over at AT&T’s in San Francisco.

Leo Laporte The wire taps, the NSA wire taps --

John C. Dvorak This thing – the Echelon thing sitting over there on Second Street.

Leo Laporte Absolutely.

Jerry Pournelle I do presume that anybody with small kids takes the responsibility for doing a little bit of limitation on what they can do on the net.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s not what we are talking about. I guess what they are saying --

Jerry Pournelle But that’s what the ad was. It was all about little kids. With adults, for heaven’s sake, you go get better privacy from Firefox as an application and just erase all of the crazy network third-party cookies every time you turn it on.

Leo Laporte Well, first of all, we don’t really know what Google is doing. I mean they obviously have a lot of information, but --

Andrew Keen But isn’t that the problem that we don’t know what they are doing?

Leo Laporte Well, should we? Should there be disclosure?

Andrew Keen I think so. Don’t you?

Jerry Pournelle Technologically, we can certainly deduce what they are doing.

Leo Laporte They know everything you search for. We can – in fact, if you go to, they do kind of say, here is what we know about you, I mean maybe --

John C. Dvorak What’s weird to me about the Rose Foundation, it’s really oriented toward environmental stuff. They must have – somebody must have gotten irked about something going on at Google.

Leo Laporte Go to

Andrew Keen The thing about Google is the more they know about us, the more profitable they are. I don’t think they are evil. But they certainly like to know us for commercial reason.

Leo Laporte Yeah, and I don’t think they really care about Andrew Keen per se. They care about us in aggregate or if Andrew Keen – somebody called me on the radio show said – actually I was talking to Wayne Resnick on the radio station in Los Angeles. He said, I searched for something called tough grips once on Google and I see ads for tough grips ever since.

Well, that’s what Google wants. They want to make sure that if you are interested in a product, you see ads for it, right?

Jerry Pournelle Yes, no.

Andrew Keen And kids don’t know that – the problem is that the kids don’t know that.

Leo Laporte Is that --

Andrew Keen Kids have no understanding of that.

Leo Laporte That ad is not aimed at kids though. It’s aimed at adults who will go to a site and say we want Congress to have a do not track registry. Is that a solution? To have a registry that says, you could – just like the do not call registry where you say --

Jerry Pournelle And when the Congressman gets a letter from a 12-year old saying I want a do not track registry, does it really register with the Congressman?

Leo Laporte Yeah, probably not.

John C. Dvorak You know, this --

Leo Laporte It’s not aimed at kids though. I want to say that. It’s aimed at adults.

John C. Dvorak There is a bunch of names on here that are ringing a bell with me.

Leo Laporte Uh, oh!

John C. Dvorak There is a – Google did something recently – by the end of the show I’ll have this but --

Leo Laporte Is this the Rose Foundation or is this the

John C. Dvorak I think it was the Rose Foundation which was involved with some other group that Google did something to and --

Leo Laporte Oh, this is a revenge.

John C. Dvorak I think it might be a revenge thing.

Leo Laporte It does seem --

Jerry Pournelle Well, Google recently abandoned net neutrality. And that might have some thing to do with it.

Leo Laporte What do you think about that, Jerry? Google’s excuse for that is that well, we got the best deal we could get. We got Verizon just – go to – get in bed with us and say we want net neutrality on land lines but anything goes on wireless and we hope Congress will make a law.

Jerry Pournelle Well, John and I have disagreed over this for years. I don’t think we need anything to do – I think net neutrality is just one more glitch in the system.

Leo Laporte I agree with you. In a situation where there is a perfect market and you can go to another service provider, you don’t need any laws for that.

Jerry Pournelle Well, wireless has certainly got plenty of markets. And for that matter, there is plenty of search engines out there if you don’t like Google.

Leo Laporte But don’t you think the wireless carriers collude?

Jerry Pournelle Somewhat and that part, you’ll understand I have nothing against enforcement of anti-trust laws; in fact the opposite. I’d like to break up AT&T again.

Leo Laporte If we don’t have anti-trust laws, you don’t have a free market.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah.

Leo Laporte And you are a deep believer in the free market.

Jerry Pournelle Not only that, but David McCord Wright who I think was the best economist of the last century although not that many people have heard of him, he pointed out that Marx’s prediction that markets tend to concentrate, you get fewer and fewer players has been true at most places but not in the United States because of the anti-trust laws.

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s interesting.

John C. Dvorak Well, I think they haven’t been enforced very well. And I think we are getting fewer and fewer players --

Jerry Pournelle Not recently they have, that’s right.

John C. Dvorak When you take a look at Microsoft and this – and the once pile of competitors that are all gone or bought up and people are buying up competition. Look at all the – I always like to point this out. All the companies that made utilities programs for the PC --

Leo Laporte Norton.

John C. Dvorak Norton, Mace Utilities, Seventh --

Leo Laporte Mace, I remember that, yeah.

John C. Dvorak There is a whole slew of them and there was – they are all bought up by Symantec and then killed.

Jerry Pournelle John, you were there that night at the Desert Inn in Las Vegas where Paul Mace and Bill Gates almost got into such a fight I thought one was going to throw the other off the balcony. That was at our party that --

Leo Laporte And this is by the way --

John C. Dvorak That would have been a great party if that happened.

Leo Laporte This is why we have Jerry Pournelle on the show. You were there at the Desert Inn in Las Vegas, 1982, John C. Dvorak, Bill Gates --

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, it was the Pournelle-Dvorak party. Only John insisted on calling it the Dvorak-Pournelle party. But it was a fairly famous Comdex party for years.

Leo Laporte John, yeah, I remember that very well. And did you – were you a part of those Dvorak parties for a long time or --

John C. Dvorak It was the --

Jerry Pournelle They weren’t the Dvorak party --

John C. Dvorak There were actually – there was actually three people involved in the party, Pournelle, Dvorak and Hearst.

Leo Laporte Yeah, Hearst put up the bucks.

John C. Dvorak Hearst put up the money.

Leo Laporte He put up the money.

John C. Dvorak Or we scammed stuff from --

Jerry Pournelle Hearst put up on money and he wouldn’t do it unless both John and I participated.

Leo Laporte So --

Jerry Pournelle And the way you got the invitation to the party was to find out where it was.

Leo Laporte Right, it was a top secret.

Jerry Pournelle And the darn thing got so popular that one time we started putting on fake parties that we didn’t go to.

Leo Laporte I remember that, yeah. And I was the one who went to those stupid things.

John C. Dvorak The whole thing had to be cancelled. It got out of control.

Leo Laporte So what happened, Jerry? Tell me about this fight between Scott Mason and Bill Gates.

John C. Dvorak Not Scott Mace, Paul Mace.

Leo Laporte Paul Mace, Scott Mace was a writer

Jerry Pournelle Paul Mace and Bill Gates just got into an enormous shouting match over how big Microsoft was getting and how much of monopoly was coming and how Windows sucked. This was in the early days when we were in the transition from DOS to Windows. And it got so literally so heated that my wife physically got between them because she was afraid that one of them will actually hit the other and they would – and we were standing on the balcony of like the ninth floor of the Desert Inn. So Bill went through a lot of things like that in those days. This was before he was married.

Leo Laporte I remember --

John C. Dvorak He doesn’t go at anything anymore, at least nothing that we would be at.

Jerry Pournelle No. And he hardly talks to people anymore. I used to see him at WinHEC. He would come to those. You never came to WinHEC, did you, John?

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte Too much hardware for John.

Jerry Pournelle I used to go to all the WinHEC.

John C. Dvorak No, I like hardware. I just don’t like these events.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jerry Pournelle But he – Bill doesn’t talk to people in this business, at least not people like John and me.

Leo Laporte Andrew Keen is going what the hell am I doing here.


John C. Dvorak It’s okay. All right, next topic.

Leo Laporte Next story, chat room.

Andrew Keen Did either of you – anyone has seen the story by Joe Nocera on net neutrality in The Times?

Leo Laporte No, what --

Andrew Keen Yesterday? There was an interesting point that he is pro net neutrality, but he is --

Leo Laporte Who is Joe Nocera, first of all?

Andrew Keen He is the business tech correspondent, columnist for The Times.

Leo Laporte He is against net neutrality?

Andrew Keen Well, he is in principle for it. But it was a very realistic piece which sort of tried to take out the evangelical quality because I think the problem with net neutrality is, it’s become a religious debate between fundamentalists.

Leo Laporte What are the parties, the party, the free market party that says no government intervention whatsoever in the Internet?

Andrew Keen Well, but there are two – there is the party that says that the big telecoms are evil. And then there is the party that says that --

Leo Laporte Does anybody disagree with that?

Andrew Keen I do.

Leo Laporte You think the big telecoms are not evil?

Andrew Keen I don’t think they are any more evil than any other corporation, no more evil than Microsoft.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s – here is the – I have to back up. Here is the deal, this is the --

Leo Laporte Are you still doing Rose Foundation digging?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, because I remember talking to Little, one of the guys at the Rose Foundation. These guys were really irked about what happened when the watchdog – the Goggle Watchdog came out and made some claims that Microsoft – or Google was trying to go behind everybody’s back to get certain laws changed so that you can get into peoples’ health records so they can index them or something. And then the guy – one of the guys who is still at Google made this – all these public pronouncements that these guys are full of crap and then they went to the Rose Foundation and told them you should stop funding these people. And Little at the Rose Foundation told me that this is the first time anyone has ever tried to pull a stunt like this.

Leo Laporte So they made an enemy?

John C. Dvorak And then so they got into this big beef. And so now they apparently – yeah you know you can end up with stuff like this. And the kicker is that Google says yeah, yeah, we made a mistake. We apologize. And Little at the Rose Foundation and the people at the Watchdog operation they both tell me that they never got an apology. The apology was a lie.

Leo Laporte So this is good. You got to the root of it because anybody who looks at that ad that was created by paid for by the Rose Foundation, was just going to scratch their heads and say, wow, that’s strong words. That is an evil portrayal of Eric Schmidt. What happened? Now we know. Now we know. It’s a personal thing.

John C. Dvorak The definitive article on it was actually written by Cade Metz, February 26, 2009 in The Register called Google Seeks Starvation of Growling Watchdog.

Leo Laporte There you have it.

John C. Dvorak That’s the key, okay. So it wasn’t – probably wasn’t --

Leo Laporte Well done.

John C. Dvorak So it’s not a shakedown, it’s a --

Leo Laporte It’s vengeance.

John C. Dvorak It’s a make good.

Leo Laporte You have made a very powerful enemy.

John C. Dvorak The Rose Foundation is in Oakland. I think that’s why it all started ringing a bell after it started --

Leo Laporte Google did this week coughed up $8.5 million to settle the Buzz privacy suit. Remember Google in the initial stages of Buzz, their kind of Twitter clone, handled it in such a poor fashion that people could look at your Buzz account and figure out who you corresponded with. And there was a class action lawsuit. I think a doctor said, look, people now know who my patients are. A woman said now my stalker knows where I am.

John C. Dvorak Right, I know that was great.

Leo Laporte It was a big deal. APEC and EFF, U.S. lawmakers, foreign governments, all criticized it. So Google settled this class action lawsuit. They of course fixed the problem. But they have also now agreed to pay $8.5 million not to the victims but to an education fund to educate Buzz users on the issues of privacy.

Jerry Pournelle And the lawyers will get 60%.

Leo Laporte At least, at least.

John C. Dvorak So what story are we going to go to because I have one that…

Leo Laporte Story three.

Jerry Pournelle Well, are we through with net neutrality?

Leo Laporte Never. You have more to say about it?

Jerry Pournelle Well, I was more interested in than our other guests. He had something to say on it.

Leo Laporte Oh yeah, okay, so you said it’s polarized religious war Andrew Keen?

Andrew Keen Well, I think that the…

Leo Laporte Thank you, Jerry.

Andrew Keen I think that’s I like the Google-Verizon thing, because they’re trying to move it along rather than just get stuck.

Leo Laporte That’s Google’s position was. It’s a compromise.

Andrew Keen Right.

Leo Laporte It’s not perfect but at least it’s a movement.

Andrew Keen But at lest they’re trying to figure out some solutions to it.

Leo Laporte I think though that I…

Andrew Keen And Google has been so vilified by the loonies.

Leo Laporte Right.

Andrew Keen I mean as if – I mean what is your position on Google on this?

John C. Dvorak I am neutral.

Andrew Keen Neutral…

Leo Laporte Well, I think trust but verify with Google. I think at the moment I trust them but I think we need to watch them. It’s appropriate to say we should watch them.

Jerry Pournelle Well, I think we should watch them but I think – I really wish that the computer community would get behind the Google-Authors settlement, the one that was put together by the Authors Guild, the publishers and Google on this Google book scanning for instance. Everybody is against it and I don’t see why. I think it’s literally the best we’ll ever get. But they are offering Authors is 60 bucks for the insult of scanning your book without your permission. And they have to ask your permission before they can do anything with that scan.

Andrew Keen I feel there’s…

Jerry Pournelle I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Andrew Keen I think that the net neutrality issue though from an author’s point of view is important, because if I’m going to – as fewer and fewer people read books and buy their digital stuff online, I want to be able to buy the highest quality services, I want to be able to buy prioritization, I don’t have a problem with that. As an author, I think that we’ve become so obsessed with flatness and the democratization of the Internet that we’ve lost sight of its core business issues and importance.

Jerry Pournelle I agree with that but how do we distinguish between say TWiT videos and porn?

Leo Laporte Very little, distinction, I guess.

Andrew Keen In what way, Jerry?

John C. Dvorak Until Leo takes his top off, we’ll see.

Andrew Keen Let’s say I don’t understand the connection.

Jerry Pournelle From a net neutrality point of view, we want to not restrict peoples’ downloading of this broadcast, what we’re doing right here today.

Andrew Keen Well, but Leo, if you could have the option to fast track this thing to be on the left lane of the highway.

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s not what the debate is though to me, the debate is not so much who gets fed up but who gets slowed down.

Andrew Keen Yeah.

Leo Laporte I think to me that’s the issue. And it comes down to things like well if you are Verizon do you de-prioritize Skype packets because you have a telecom business.

Andrew Keen But I think that that misunderstands the nature of these large corporations. It sees them as these hugely conspiratorial organizations. They will sit around in the morning and think, who can we kill, who can we slow down. And I don’t think that’s how it works.

Leo Laporte Well, wait a minute, isn’t it – are they not designed to maximize profits?

Andrew Keen So what you are saying is that there are people in Verizon who every morning would sit down and say how can we slow down our competitors?

Leo Laporte Not at all. What they say is where – who are our competitors? What’s going to hurt us? How do we keep our business alive? Oh my god, here comes voice-over-the-Internet, they want to use wholesale bits on our network instead of the premium retail bits that we charge for as phone service. We’ve got to make sure that those wholesale bits are deprecated and the premium bits are promoted.

Andrew Keen Yeah, but Skype…

Leo Laporte No, they are not doing it in the U.S. but Jerry they do it in Canada, and…

John C. Dvorak They do it here in…

Leo Laporte They may do it here, we don’t know.

Andrew Keen But even with Skype – I mean even with Verizon if you’re using Skype, you go to go over the Verizon Network. So in essence they are monetizing it.

Leo Laporte But they are not monetizing it as they wish they do.

John C. Dvorak They are not monetizing [indiscernible] (29:01) money.

Leo Laporte So and this is the same issue by the way and we’re going to get to Apple’s announcement, this is the same issue I think that cable companies have with BitTorrent and other ways of watching television including IPTV. You are using their less expensive wholesale bits using them as a data network as opposed to the premium services of HBO, and obviously they really need to as they want to sell.

Andrew Keen But from an author’s point of view when Comcast go after…

Leo Laporte They are not going to after you.

Andrew Keen Well, they go after BitTorrent and you know from research of Princeton that whatever it is 96 – 97% of…

Leo Laporte It’s not their place to go after BitTorrent.

Andrew Keen No, but let me finish on the BitTorrent thing, I am happy if Comcast went after BitTorrent, because 97% of the stuff on that is stolen, doesn’t help me as an author.

Leo Laporte That’s them acting as a law enforcement agent, that’s not their place to do that. That’s not their place to do that.

Andrew Keen Well, who is going to do it?

Leo Laporte Well, law enforcement. You don’t…

Andrew Keen They’re not doing a very good job.

Leo Laporte You are asking for vigilante justice. You’re saying, well, Comcast should block BitTorrent because 98, what about the 2% that’s not legal? That is legal?

Jerry Pournelle Leo, for years, I was either Chairman or Vice Chairman of the Piracy Committee for Science Fiction Writers of America and we really went after pirates and it was pretty hard to do.

Leo Laporte How did that work, Jerry?

Jerry Pournelle Not very damn well. What it does is it works with the people who have good motives. The kid who scanned one of my books because it’s out of print and he thinks it’s a shame that that book is out of print, little – this is back before nowadays when every book can be put in print by its authors simply by delivering it to Amazon. And by the way, the best way – the best way to get an electronic readable copy of a book that you published in 1974 is to go out and find a very conscientious pirate.

Leo Laporte The fans?

Jerry Pournelle Yes.

Leo Laporte Your engaged fans, don’t punish them.

Jerry Pournelle And those are the people we could persuade to turn it off.

Leo Laporte Right. Because they care.

Jerry Pournelle The Pirate Bay, the people who are [indiscernible] (31:14) which simply want other people’s work to draw a crowd and then sell something else after they’ve the crowd there. Those people only pay attention to lawsuits, which means that basically they can pirate anybody in the world except Harlan Ellison. The incident they had, they pirate Harlan, Charles Petit gets in the act and they lose money. But…

Leo Laporte Harlan is very aggressive, isn’t he in protecting his rights?

Jerry Pournelle Not only very aggressive, he’s got the best patent lawyer in the country.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jerry Pournelle But it’s expensive to do that. It takes capital or a lawyer who is willing to work with you in that way.

Leo Laporte I would submit it’s also futile and that what you really need to do is look at a business model that survives these technologies because you know what, they are out there and I think you are trying to stand the tide here, you are trying to…

Jerry Pournelle Eric Flint, who is the editor at Baen is pretty well convinced that any author who has a lot of legitimate electronic copies of books that can be bought is probably better off when somebody pirates and particularly they pirate them badly.

Leo Laporte There is a lot of evidence of that.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, Eric has numbers.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Andrew Keen This network neutrality, though. Does it allow something like the Kindle which is a private network essentially?

Leo Laporte Interesting.

Andrew Keen That’s the issue.

Leo Laporte You could – you could if you were – and of course they have a private network, but let’s say Kindle was using as they are now Wi-Fi as well, and you are Comcast and you say, I have a book business, I don’t want let the Kindle bits come through as fast. I think it really comes down to more slowing than speeding.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, but slowing down the book doesn’t do anybody any good.

Leo Laporte And it doesn’t – it’s not very effective.

Jerry Pournelle In fact it’s not going to do much to slow though. So it takes me 6 minutes to down Janet Evanovich’s latest book as opposed to 4. So what?

Leo Laporte Right. Big deal. Right. They are not too worried about text.

Jerry Pournelle Movies – it’s movies that’s the problem, which is like this show, and this show versus an equivalent porn is what I’m trying to get – understand how net neutrality would distinguish between this show which we all agree ought to be unrestricted and the kid down the street who spends 24 hours a day downloading porn…….

Leo Laporte It shouldn’t, Jerry.

Jerry Pournelle

……..with all he got and he is slowing everybody in the neighborhood down. 

Leo Laporte Well it shouldn’t distinguish. Well, okay, there’s solutions for that but they shouldn’t be distinguished, bits is bits. And it’s not for Comcast or anyone else to say that my bits are better than somebody else’s bits. Bits is bits. Bits should be bits. Bits should bits.

Jerry Pournelle I agree with you, but I don’t think anybody is doing it. And until somebody does it, I don’t see any point in putting some hamper on some new start-up that’s just trying to get going again.

Leo Laporte I agree with you, there is no evidence it’s happening in the...

John C. Dvorak You guys are – you are not – nobody is making a point. The chat-room is irked with this conversation. I just want to try to move to the next topic.

Leo Laporte You should not listen to the chat-room. In fact I want to slow them down. How do I slow…

John C. Dvorak Yeah, go get them chat-room.

Jerry Pournelle Anyway I tend to agree with Andy that authors have some interest here, but I’m not sure that net neutrality affects them very much.

John C. Dvorak I would agree with that and also I think authors are more attacked by the Xerox machine. And while the musicians were complaining and moaning and groaning about all the records being stolen, nobody bitched about the fact that our articles are being copied willy-nilly and nobody gets a nickel.

Leo Laporte You know what the solution is, is to cultivate more of those kids, Jerry, who love you so much that they will do whatever you say, engage your audience, cultivate your audience. They will pay for you. Don’t worry about the pirates.

Jerry Pournelle Well, I understand that thoroughly. By the way, John, I’m not sure I understand. Google can’t put your articles up unless you tell them they can, and if you go – if we get this – agree with the Google settlement, then you get paid for all the ones they scan without your permission.

John C. Dvorak I’m talking about the simple piracy that the musicians complain about, the kid that’s in college that takes an MP3 file but meanwhile the colleges are photocopying articles left and right and flashing them out in class.

Leo Laporte Which – that’s I believe fair use.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s not the whole article.

Jerry Pournelle I have seen a huge file of my bike columns used as a text in a journalism class. And in fact, the teacher was proud of it, he proudly showed it to me.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Friday, the court of appeals ruling on F.B.T. Productions versus Aftermath Records, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, your favorite, John, because they are so darn liberal………

John C. Dvorak I love them.

Leo Laporte ……ruled that royalties to artists from download should go from 18% to 50%, iTunes, Amazon – 50, one-half.

John C. Dvorak I think they nailed it.

Leo Laporte Good for artists.

Jerry Pournelle I think it’s not good for us when the government starts dictating who gets what.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, you are right.

Leo Laporte A surprising ruling. That’s the Ninth Circuit.

John C. Dvorak Okay. So, topic number 4.

Leo Laporte Topic number four, page 2, Let me tell you friends, if you are not backing up you are missing a very important part of computer hygiene program. Carbonite helps you back up by doing it automatically onto the Internet where it’s safe as houses encrypted 128-bit SSL on the way, Carbonite also uses – go ahead, John, just cross right in front of me. This is an advertisement. You are quick on the uptake, Andrew.

Andrew Keen This is how you monetize the show?

Leo Laporte This is where we make the money.

Andrew Keen Can I go to the bathroom?

Leo Laporte You may go to the bathroom and everybody else.

Andrew Keen Will I see Carbonite in the bathroom?

Leo Laporte No. The ads will not follow you. Jerry, you can go too.

Jerry Pournelle No, I’m desperately interested in this commercial.

Leo Laporte Smoke them if you got them., it’s online backup, automatic, PC or Mac. Well, one of the things I really like about Carbonite is in fact I put this on my daughter’s computer as she heads off to college not only because laptops they are going to get lost, but with Carbonite she can get online anywhere, log on to her account and there is the file. They even have a free iPhone or BlackBerry app, that means your data is always there, always safe.

If you really want to protect it privacy wise, AES 256-bit encryption, that you control the passkey too. And you can get your files back with just a simple click of the mouse on any computer, anywhere., and I want you to try it free for 2 weeks. 15 days free Carbonite, there is no credit card needed or anything, you just go to, use the offer code twit, offer code twit, if you decide to buy, use the offer code twit, and you will save 2 free months. It’s very affordable. PC or Mac, $55 a year for unlimited, everything on your internal drive, all the personal stuff., it’s backup done right.

Carbonite, we thank – thank Carbonite so much for their support of the show. They have been a long time supporters of the network.

So, let’s talk a little bit about Apple.

John C. Dvorak Well the chat-room was supposed to be determining this and they…

Leo Laporte All right. What do they say?

John C. Dvorak They want to talk about and their fluffle.

Leo Laporte You are not going to fall for that, are you?

John C. Dvorak This is a good way to do – to marginalize…

Leo Laporte No, no, we talked about it last week, Kevin Rose was on the show…

John C. Dvorak Never mind, never mind.

Leo Laporte We talked about it, Digg. You know what happened, Digg 4 complete rewrite, complete re-launch. And it’s my opinion – correct me if I’m wrong, that there are some very devoted Digg users, probably fewer than a dozen who didn’t – felt disenfranchised by the new Digg system and complained loudly.

Andrew Keen All right.

John C. Dvorak End of story.

Leo Laporte I’d be very curious to see what Digg’s numbers look like…

Jerry Pournelle And all 12 of them are in the chat-room right now.

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s probably true too.

Andrew Keen What is Digg?

Leo Laporte Andrew, I love you. Don’t give John the noise maker, and don’t give Andrew chips apparently. What were you saying, I’m sorry?

Andrew Keen No, with Digg, why would anyone go to Digg? I don’t get it.

John C. Dvorak Well, there is the question of the day.

Leo Laporte You know what they say? They say 27 million uniques. I go to Digg because Kevin is a friend. You know what – okay, you know what's really useless?

Andrew Keen Answer my question. Why would you go to it?

Leo Laporte All right, let’s go there, I’ll show you why they go to it. The old Digg – I agree with you, I didn’t go to old Digg very much because the old Digg was a bunch of the small group of people saying this is what they thought was news. And I didn’t really care what this small group of people. But now the new Digg, you still have that by the way, you haven’t lost that, but you can also – oh, I have to log in – you can also go to Your News…

John C. Dvorak Oh, you have to log in? Was this Facebook? You have to log in …

Leo Laporte You don’t have to log in. But because I have a log-in, I can then go to My News and like Twitter I followed – how many? 43 people who I consider their opinion on what’s news important. Now –

John C. Dvorak Do you have me on that list?

Leo Laporte Are you – do you Digg stories?

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte Well, if you don’t Digg stories, of course you’re not going to be on that list.

John C. Dvorak Well, I just thought you gratuitously put me on the list.

Leo Laporte But these are people that I listen to, and I know when they pick a story, that’s worthwhile. You can do it on Twitter, Andrew; but Twitter doesn’t collate them like this. This is all stories by Digg. You can look at the most recent – or the top stories in the last 24 hours. These are big stories. So for me, I think this is valuable.

John C. Dvorak Whiskey from diabetics’ urine? Click that one.

Leo Laporte This is the problem – my problem with Digg is it does kind of – that’s BoingBoing, which I like. But it does tend to sent – pick sensational articles –

John C. Dvorak Straight malt whiskey made from urine?

Leo Laporte Gilpin Family whiskey. Well...

John C. Dvorak Disgusting!

Leo Laporte know, if you’re diabetic, you probably –

John C. Dvorak What, you’re peeing alcohol? You can distil it?

Leo Laporte No, no, sugar. Sugar.

Jerry Pournelle Well, that’s why everybody you meet who’s named Drinkwater probably is diabetic.

Leo Laporte What? You think?

Jerry Pournelle The name Drinkwater – I mean diabetics drink a lot. They drink a lot of water. And then people – and it tends to be hereditary, type 2, anyway. So...

Leo Laporte Interesting.

Jerry Pournelle ...everybody you meet named Drinkwater, you can bet fairly heavily that he’s diabetic.

Andrew Keen Digg is dead, right?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, changing the subject [laughter].

Leo Laporte I don’t know, I think Digg is wounded mortally.

Andrew Keen Was it ever alive?

Leo Laporte Was it ever alive.

Jerry Pournelle I find it interesting, because I haven’t talked about Digg in two years. Or even thought about it in a year.

Andrew Keen I never understood – I just hear about it and I never understood –

Leo Laporte The notion of Digg – and I know Kevin very well, and I was there when he thought it up is –

Andrew Keen What’s the big deal about Kevin as well?

Leo Laporte He’s a friend of mine. He’s a friend of mine.

Andrew Keen But apart from that.

Leo Laporte That’s all I care about.

John C. Dvorak Everybody loves Kevin.

Leo Laporte Kevin Rose. He worked with me on The Screen Savers.

John C. Dvorak Why do you like anybody, he’s just a nice guy.

Andrew Keen Why?

John C. Dvorak What do you mean, why? You’re like a two-year-old!

Leo Laporte Why doesn’t anybody like Andrew? I don’t know! They just – we do.

John C. Dvorak Why, why, why.

Leo Laporte Why, mommy, why? Why? So Kevin said – he looks at Slashdot said – now the thing is, Slashdot’s great. But what I’d love to see is a site where the readers vote up or down stories, so that you know what the stories are most interesting.

Andrew Keen Oh, I see.

Leo Laporte It was kind of crowd sourcing editorial.

Andrew Keen Crowd sourcing stories.

Leo Laporte Not stories, but editorial. You know, a sense of – this is the story.

John C. Dvorak It was unique.

Leo Laporte I think it’s a great idea.

John C. Dvorak Very unique.

Leo Laporte It was flawed, because it turned out that the people were most involved had a kind of an odd sensibility, didn’t share mine anyway. This new Digg, one of the reasons I like it is, you get to pick who’s opinions you care about. And that it’s just like Twitter in that sense. But it’s news focused, where Twitter –

John C. Dvorak I will now because of you, Leo. I will now go get an account and do exactly – in fact, I’ll use your 42 people.

Leo Laporte Well, I don’t know where I got those 42.

Andrew Keen I think I wrote about Digg in my book –

Jerry Pournelle I am going to do the same thing.

Leo Laporte Pardon me?

John C. Dvorak No, I agree. I think it sounds like a great idea. I’ll put you on the list, Jerry, and we will Digg up stories and we will put them in there, and the next thing you know.

Jerry Pournelle I think that’s the first time I’ve heard any reason to go look at Digg.

John C. Dvorak This is why this show is worth listening.

Leo Laporte They have a marketing issue, obviously, because that’s – that –

John C. Dvorak I didn’t know this.

Leo Laporte If they couldn’t articulate their vision –

Jerry Pournelle The original Digg was a victim of Pournelle’s iron law of bureaucracy.

Leo Laporte What’s that?

Jerry Pournelle Which is to say any organization has two kinds of people, they are the people who sort of dedicated to what the organization is dedicated to, like classroom teachers, many of them. And there are the people who are dedicated the organization itself. And the iron law is the second kind always gets in control. And that’s pretty well what happened to Digg.

Leo Laporte I think that’s exactly what happened.

Jerry Pournelle A small group of enthusiasts got to doing it and they essentially took it over.

Leo Laporte Yep.

Jerry Pournelle And I couldn’t care less what that group of a hundred people thought.

Leo Laporte They killed it.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah.

Leo Laporte It’s a very difficult challenge because, of course, in new media one of the things you want is a galvanized, engaged audience.

Andrew Keen Yeah.

Leo Laporte What you don’t want is that galvanizing, engaged audience to dictate – which is why don’t let the chat room tell us what stories [laughter].

John C. Dvorak You’re the one – it was your idea!

Leo Laporte Yeah, it was a bad idea. You don’t want them to dictate the content. But at the same time, you want them engaged and you want them involved and you want them to participate.

Jerry Pournelle Sure. John and I do it the same way. We read our emails.

Leo Laporte Read your emails, there you go. Make it a two-way street.

Jerry Pournelle I don’t – on my website I do not allow comments. I choose comments to publish. And I try to choose a representative spectrum of them. But I’m not going to – have a site that has 800 people saying yes, no, you’re crazy, you’re an idiot, you’re – and all the rest of the nonsense that goes on.

Leo Laporte Well, it’s a really interesting problem, do you put comments on blogs? I mean I think –

John C. Dvorak I do. I believe in wide open. I think that the – do we have moderates who we pull comments and we ban people.

Leo Laporte Moderate heavily. And here’s the other thing I found about –

John C. Dvorak But it’s more entertaining than the articles.

Leo Laporte I agree. And then the other thing I found –

Jerry Pournelle Well it can be, but it takes a staff and I don’t have a staff, it’s just me.

Leo Laporte You know what it really takes, Jerry - and this is my opinion only, but it – and it may not have been proven out yet in practice. But it’s like a garden. The more you participate in the comments and the – frankly, the more civil they are. They become uncivil when they feel like nobody’s paying any attention.

Andrew Keen But they’re mad. It’s like – have you been following this story on TechCrunch with the airline?

Leo Laporte Now, this is a great story. Let’s talk about this. It’s a...

Andrew Keen If you follow the comments, it’s really like entering a mad house. It’s embarrassing to be a member of the human race when you look at this.

Leo Laporte Well I think Mike needs – Mike probably needs to moderate better, right?

So Adeo Ressi is an entrepreneur. He created The Funded – you may know the name, The Funded. It’s a site of – for venture capitalists and other entrepreneurs. He’s on Virgin America – which I, by the way, love. But he got a cranky flight attendant – we’ve all had them.

John C. Dvorak Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte And the cranky – as far as I can tell, and if you read Adeo’s letter which Mike published in TechCrunch – he was flying in first-class. He’s a 70,000-mile flyer this year. So he spent some time on Virgin America, loves Virgin America. This cranky attendant didn’t really do anything through the whole flight, however, as they started to descend, the captain comes on, asks everybody to shut down their computers. The attendant walked down the aisle immediately following the captain’s announcement and tapped my computer to indicate I should shut it off. I looked up, nodded, and indicated I needed a second to finish an email – I mean it’s one of those. And the guy walked on. By the time he returned 60 to 90 seconds later, I’d finished the email at exactly 5:33 according to email records, and I was closing the lid. He stood above me and said in a loud voice, ‘I told you to close the computer, you need to listen to me, you need to obey my orders, I am in charge. I told you to close the computer, you need to listen. I am in charge, not you.’ I don’t know if he actually sounded like that.

John C. Dvorak It sounds good, though, I like that.

Leo Laporte It’s a dramatic reading.

John C. Dorval I like it.

Jerry Pournelle It would have been great to have a video.

Leo Laporte Yeah, this is the problem. He says ‘this went on for a while, it was awkward and uncalled for and embarrassing’ – this is Adeo writing. ‘Meanwhile, I am holding the closed computer up off the tray table for everyone to see. The attendant said, ‘I can contact the authorities and have you arrested.’ I said, ‘I’ve done nothing wrong, go ahead if you like.’ He’s probably Italian. ‘I have done nothing wrong, go ahead if you like, I have done nothing wrong.’ Now a few minutes after the original announcement, the captain – hey, I got to make this interesting.

John C. Dvorak Somebody does.

Leo Laporte Anyway, he ends up getting – the police meet him. They interrogate him.

John C. Dvorak Interrogate.

Leo Laporte He’s got witnesses from First Class who stuck around. He says, ‘three First Class and Main Cabin Select passengers agreed to be witnesses on my behalf to the police saying I did nothing wrong. The police said, pfft. And said see ya, never mind. The TSA gets involved. Meanwhile, the captain comes over and berates him. The Virgin America captain lectured me twice on the importance of turning off the computer without even listening to my side of the story. The flight attendant said, ‘I’ve been disruptive at other points in the flight.’ And now the police say to me – the Virgin American teams are defending each other. The police –

Andrew Keen That’s why you go into journalism, to cover this kind of stuff.

John C. Dorval Yep. This is the way it is. This is good stuff.

Leo Laporte So anyway. Now, the comments. What’s going on in the comments. Is it hysterical?

Andrew Keen It’s just weird.

John C. Dvorak Its’ the same old – you know what the comments are like.

Andrew Keen Screaming and shouting.

Leo Laporte ‘I am a pilot and a skydiver. A year ago after I broke up with a boyfriend and decided to stop jumping’ – I am not going to read that one, it goes on, it goes on and on. You’re right, there’s quite a few. But you know what, Mike must love it because this is engagement. And the comments –

Jerry Pournelle Engagement of what? How many people in their right mind would spend more than a couple of minutes reading comments to that story?

Leo Laporte 403 comments, it would take more than a couple of minutes.

Jerry Pournelle Then 403 people are – well I am sure, it’s not 403 people commenting.

Leo Laporte There’s a guy named Perry Mason.

John C. Dvorak I think there are.

Leo Laporte Virgin Atlantic Legal Department.

Jerry Pournelle That many – you need commenters or one guy –

Leo Laporte No.

John C. Dvorak It’s probably a couple hundred, Jerry. They get a lot of comments. Some websites really attract commenters, especially if they leave them open.

Jerry Pournelle Okay.

Leo Laporte TechCrunch has historically done that.

Jerry Pournelle I will pay money not to – not to have to listen to the comments of the two hundred people.

Leo Laporte Well you don’t have to.

John C. Dvorak You don’t have to. You just skip it. You’re not to read the comments.

Leo Laporte You don’t have to read them. It’s kind of amusing. I’ll tell you, Digg, YouTube is notorious for horrible comments.

John C. Dvorak Oh, Digg is clearly off the track.

Leo Laporte Digg is terrible.

Jerry Pournelle John, who pays for your bandwidth?

John C. Dvorak My bandwidth is a – is kind of a barter deal.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, I have to pay for mine, which is another reason to not fill it full of nonsense.

John C. Dvorak Oh I see. That’s the point. He’s giving me the…

Leo Laporte You get free bandwidth.

Jerry Pournelle There’s bandwidth around that you can get.

Leo Laporte But Jerry, nobody – nobody’s paying for John’s time and attention. That comes straight out of his pocket.

John C. Dvorak And time is the most valuable asset there is.

Leo Laporte Because we’re all…

John C. Dvorak We’re all going to die.

John C. Dvorak We’re all going to die, that’s the reason.

Leo Laporte The clock is running.

Jerry Pournelle Oh, I completely agree. I just think my time is probably better spent writing original essays than it is commenting on stuff that doesn’t need comment.

John C. Dvorak Tell my wife.

Jerry Pournelle How is Mimi?

John C. Dvorak She’s fine, but she spends too much time doing exactly that. Commenting, writing long emails to people – luckily some of the stuff is...

Leo Laporte It’s called participation.

Jerry Pournelle What about...

John C. Dvorak About what?

Jerry Pournelle HP Lovecraft, you know, famously starved to death answering all his fan mail.

Andrew Keen What are some of her peeves?

John C. Dvorak Well, she’s like, she hates a lot of the – she’s involved with a lot of women’s groups.

Leo Laporte She’s a chick, that’s what women do.

John C. Dvorak And she’s half the time annoyed by some of these women who are dingbats. And so she writes these scathing letters to people who are dingbats about how idiotic they are, and these things go on for days.

Leo Laporte I once worked with a woman on the radio who brought the newspaper to me, she says, I don’t know who this ‘Name Withheld’ is. But she writes to the editor all the time and I’m sick to death of her comments.

John C. Dvorak Name Withheld [laughter].

Andrew Keen But if you’re an editor of a website with a lot of traffic, do you commission articles to attract a lot of comments? Is that right?

John C. Dvorak Oh, absolutely.

Leo Laporte Comments equal traffic, don’t they?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Andrew Keen I don’t know, do they? I want to ask…

John C. Dvorak No, if you get a lot of comments, that means you’re getting a lot of traffic.

Leo Laporte How does Mike make money? He makes money from page views, right?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, page views is the key.

Leo Laporte In fact, you know what I hate, there’s this terrible trend now in the tech pages, tech websites and actually a lot of sites were doing this. Where the article is a slide show. You cannot read the article sequentially. You have to watch a slide show and every page load is another ad.

John C. Dvorak There is a little, usually a little button and you can see all the slides at once, usually somewhere if you search around.

Leo Laporte Yeah, but they hide that if there so because I can never it.

John C. Dvorak Now the slideshow thing, which we use a PC magazine they use it at eWEEK, I’ve seen it as it was developed I think mostly at eWEEK to be honest.

Leo Laporte What a surprise, Davis figured this one out, huh?

John C. Dvorak And so, I find them to be extremely annoying but compelling.

Jerry Pournelle It’s different from video, because when you’ve got the comments on this, you don’t add revenue, right? Your revenue is determined by…

Leo Laporte Number of people watching, period.

Jerry Pournelle So, however, many times they comment makes no difference.

Leo Laporte Makes no difference to me.

Jerry Pournelle He makes money out of advertising, I make only, I make money only out of voluntary subscriptions, so…

Leo Laporte Actually, Jerry is the purest of all.

Andrew Keen Jerry, what are we supposed to make of media as writers where all the value is in other people talking rather than the author?

Jerry Pournelle Well there’s nothing wrong with being an editor, it’s just not what I do.

Andrew Keen What’s the future of writing if all the value is in what the other people are saying rather than the writing?

Jerry Pournelle I don’t think it is. Clearly, in my case I don’t believe that. That is my side. There are two of them. One of them continues the old bi-column and it’s purely about technology and I leave my political opinions out of it. And the other one is just me talking about how I think the country is going to hell.

John C. Dvorak In a hand basket.

Jerry Pournelle And it’s all free and subscription is voluntary and I get enough subscribers to make it worth continuing. But I don’t have ads.

Leo Laporte Andrew, the answer is that the writer is the interlocutor. The writer is the ringleader, the person who initiates the conversation. As somebody who’s worked in talk radio for years, that’s really the talk radio host shop is to guide, to stimulate, to begin the conversation.

Jerry Pournelle You don’t think that’s a good thing, right?

Leo Laporte I don’t think it’s a bad thing, I think it’s a good thing.

Jerry Pournelle You told me that talk radio is going to the dogs.

Leo Laporte Well that was because…

John C. Dvorak He doesn’t like right wing talkers.

Leo Laporte I think – that’s the problem, is that unfortunately, just like blogging, there is – you get rewarded for stimulating a lot of sound and fury. That’s really where the money is.

John C. Dvorak Do your Rush Limbaugh, come on.

Leo Laporte ‘Listen up, you people! I’m pounding the table.’ I think that the talk radio discovered that really where you get people interested is we get their blood pressure up and…

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, well, Al Franken tried that and they went broke.

Leo Laporte It doesn’t work for left-wingers, for some reason.

John C. Dvorak I know why.

Leo Laporte Please tell me why.

John C. Dvorak Because the left-wingers have an – a literal agenda of politeness and political correctness …

Leo Laporte Yeah. Too nice.

John C. Dvorak That they can’t cross, and so they – they restrict themselves.

Leo Laporte They’re not willing to lie.

John C. Dvorak It’s not a matter of lying, it’s a self-editing restriction, afraid to actually come out.

Andrew Keen But I think the internet’s changed all that, because…

Leo Laporte Civility’s gone away.

Andrew Keen A couple of points. Firstly, when you look at something – somewhere like The Huffington Post, you have just as many comments as anywhere else.

Leo Laporte I agree. I agree.

Andrew Keen And also, someone like Arrington crosses political boundaries. I mean is he left…?

Leo Laporte No, he’s not political. But he’s a tech writer, he’s not writing about politics.

Andrew Keen But I think that he’s tapping into this populist anger at any kind of…

John C. Dvorak Who?

Leo Laporte Mike Arrington.

Andrew Keen Arrington.

Leo Laporte I agree 100%.

Andrew Keen So this stuff about airlines and any kind of...

Leo Laporte Right, yeah that’s a good point. That Adeo Ressi article has nothing to do with tech it’s except for that Adeo is a…

John C. Dvorak No, the plane is a high-tech vehicle.

Leo Laporte It has to do with Adeo, I guess.

Jerry Pournelle No, it’s the computer they were complaining about his using…

Andrew Keen Yeah, we all object of the fact...

John C. Dvorak Right, there you go Jerry, Jerry nailed it, it’s got – it has to do with a laptop.

Leo Laporte No, remember we used to – we used to under the screen saver there was always the debate as how can we get Kenny Rogers on the show and make it about tech.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, let me try to get Danika Patrick on Cranky Geeks.

Leo Laporte Well, she’s GoDaddy. I got Bob Parson’s number. I’ll give it to you, he will put her on.

Jerry Pournelle You think I’d get a lot more readers if I had guests?

John C. Dvorak If it’s Danika Patrick, maybe.

Leo Laporte No, Jerry people read you for you. They want your particular unique point of view, of course that’s what they want.

Jerry Pournelle Well, and I have some fairly regular correspondents who ask very interesting questions or for instance one of mine is a retired colonel, who used to be the governor of one of the provinces of Iraq. So he pretty well knows what’s going on over there given the page.

Leo Laporte One of the best columns in the National Review was Bill Buckley responding to his correspondents.

John C. Dvorak Well, that was in the Boardwatch magazine, that’s what Jack Rickard did, half the magazine was letters to the editor and back and forth.

Leo Laporte And there, people don’t read it for the commentators, they read it for your response to the commentators.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah. I have two major pages on my Jerry Pournelle website. One of them is the view from Chaos Manor, in which I would say whatever the hell I feel like saying for the day. And the other is mail, which is literally that I select maybe 20 letters out of the 100 I get and I comment on them or I just put them up without comment if they are interesting, but I could possibly put up all the hundreds that I get, nobody would read that.

Leo Laporte No, and they’re not interested anyway in the comments, they’re interested in your response to the comments. So you’re choosing them and publishing a response to what people read.

Jerry Pournelle Sense of work.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I think there is nothing wrong with that and that’s to answer Andrew’s question that’s the role of the writer, that’s what the writer does.

Jerry Pournelle He does know anything about this Google advertising business, I got a letter from them the other day saying why don’t I put that in there, it’s automatic and I don’t have to sell any ads and…

Leo Laporte That’s very easy, it’s just…

John C. Dvorak It doesn’t pay crap.

Leo Laporte It doesn’t pay very well, make about 1,000 a month.

Jerry Pournelle It extracts readers and it doesn’t make…

Andrew Keen You make 1,000 a month on Google?

Leo Laporte Yes, a lot of money.

John C. Dvorak Just ask for more money from your readers.

Leo Laporte You know where we make all the money and where I would suggest the money, almost all of our Google AdWords or AdSense money comes from Search.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Because if people are searching for something and the AdWords shows up in the Search results, people are likely to click on those. So 90% of the money you make, Jerry, so if you have a search on your page…

John C. Dvorak Search box.

Leo Laporte Have a search box on your page, make it a Google Search box and that’s it.

Jerry Pournelle Now I tell people just put in the site name and then use Google to search it, that’s easier than having a search box.

Leo Laporte It’s not easier, Jerry, and you’re missing out on money.

John C. Dvorak That is free money.

Leo Laporte Look at this here Jerry, look…

Jerry Pournelle But how much?

John C. Dvorak That would be a little…

Leo Laporte That depends how many page views you get and look at this right at the top…

John C. Dvorak Take a couple of hundred bucks.

Leo Laporte Right at the top here we have a search, but it’s a Google Search.

Jerry Pournelle I get about 100,000 unique visitors a month.

Leo Laporte So if I search for Dvorak, you can’t really see it, it’s cut off there. If I search for Dvorak and I press it, let’s get the results here that will help.

John C. Dvorak What kind of machine is this?

Leo Laporte It’s a scrolling machine. So there is the Search, it’s a Google custom Search. John, there is no ads in your search results. But this is in my page right, it’s just like a search within my page. They are using Google to do it and if there were ads in here then the likelihood of them to click – getting click is a hundred times higher. Here, let’s search for some of our products.

John C. Dvorak How about Ford, Leo?

Leo Laporte Let’s search for Ford, I take Ford.

Andrew Keen What about your sponsor? What was the one, Leo?

Leo Laporte Ford is the sponsor. Let’s look for Ford.

Andrew Keen Ford is sponsoring.

Leo Laporte Okay, so look at this…

Andrew Keen How did you get Ford as a sponsor?

Leo Laporte Well…

John C. Dvorak He’s a good hard working man.

Leo Laporte I am a hard working fellow and I got the angels on my side. Carbonite Ford, but look at that there is the results.

Jerry Pournelle That’s always been the big reason I didn’t try to do ad just because I don’t know how to sell space.

Leo Laporte You don’t have to, Google sells it.

Jerry Pournelle Well, I can say that doing back, I mean but you like Ford, you didn’t get that through Ford.

Leo Laporte No, no, no. We have an agency that does it, speaking of Ford, let me just mention that the Fabulous Ford automobiles – the Ford Lincoln and Mercury dealer – have you tried the Ford Sync, John, you probably never have, have you been in my Mustang.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, I’ve driven your Mustang around.

Leo Laporte Oh! I love Sync.

Andrew Keen I went to a Ford event in Los Angeles.

Leo Laporte Ford – look at – I celebrate Ford.

Andrew Keen With Sync.

Leo Laporte They’re bringing the pride back to American automobile in American industry. And I’m just really proud to be associated with Ford in all honesty.

Jerry Pournelle I don’t blame you by the way, I have an 8-year-old explorer, I love it.

Leo Laporte So, you don’t. So you don’t, this Ford Mustang is 2010 it’s awesome. So yours is too old to have the Sync Jerry – but the Sync is an amazing, it’s hands-free calling – turn-by-turn directions, even if you don’t have a GPS screen. it will tell you how to go, and it’s really cool you can – it’s hands-free music search, traffic search, it reads text messages, so when somebody text me on my Android phone, the – my Ford Sync beeps, it says you have a text message and reads me the message and sometimes it’s kind of funny in the robotic voice, to hear what some people send me.

I love Ford Sync in fact, I think it’s good enough and I know there people I’ve talked to people who actually bought a Ford because of Sync. The good news is Ford is making great cars, I mean the pride really is back I have to say and you get the Ford Sync in it. Ford Lincoln and Mercury vehicles, you could find out more by going to the website,, the idea of course is safety first, your hands are on the wheel, your eyes on the road, but you tell the car play TWiT 264, or play Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan or whatever you want to listen to.

You say give me directions, if you have an accident it calls 911 for you, feeds then the GPS code and it plays the recorded message, turns on the microphone and it says what would you like to tell them. Alp, Ford Sync, I tell you safety, its convenience, and every time I get in the car that doesn’t have the Sync I hate it. You know that – you know some times when you put a program on your computer that makes it easier to use like a mouse program or something makes it easier to use and then you use a computer without it, it’s like what’s wrong with this computer, I get – everybody else’s cars, what’s wrong with this car, doesn’t have Ford Sync. give it a try today you will love it.

Apple, can I please – Apple has brought the biggest – most important thing Apple announced this week the new iWatch – it is a wrist watch, it’s an iPod how do you like that. Look at that, isn’t that something.

Andrew Keen Are you serious?

Leo Laporte I’m not exactly. So they announced a new nano, new shuffle, new iPod touch, they announced a new social network that is absurd called ping.

Andrew Keen Ping.

Leo Laporte And Apple TV, where they missed a bet by not pointing apps on it. But to me, this is surely the thing I’m most interested in. This is the new iPod, it has a 240x240 screen on it, the new nano. They took camera out, they shrunk it, 8 and 16 gigs but I love this because it has a watch face on it.

Andrew Keen Yeah.

Leo Laporte Don’t you think that’s good, now, I don’t think people are going to wear them on the wrist, I think they’re going to clip it right here…

John C. Dvorak Yeah. You think it will go like this, like there in a secret service or something…

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak …or what you’re talking about.

Leo Laporte Yeah, like James Bond.

Jerry Pournelle Is it water-proof?

Leo Laporte No, it’s a nano.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s not water-proof, lucky it even work – the sweat from your wrist will probably ruin it.

Leo Laporte All right now, now also – let’s talk about – anyway I like the new iPod touch, it’s the same as the iPhone…

Andrew Keen Have you see it, I went to my local stores – they didn’t have them.

Leo Laporte No, next week.

Andrew Keen So how can you lie me, if you haven’t seen it.

Leo Laporte Oh! I haven’t seen it but I know the iPhone, I love the iPhone 4 and what I like about it, that display is going to be great, they kind of botched it on the camera, it’s a lower quality camera but they will have front-facing camera finally – does anybody use FaceTime? This is the Apple video calling technology.

Jerry Pournelle What’s that?

John C. Dvorak I’ve had more people demo it to me, saying, oh! This is cool…

Leo Laporte Nobody uses it.

John C. Dvorak But then nobody uses it.

Andrew Keen Yes, such a waste.

Jerry Pournelle Leo, how do you know all of it, you didn’t get invited to the Apple show, neither did I.

Leo Laporte Please, are you rubbing salt on my wound Jerry?

John C. Dvorak Wait a minute, let me get to straight. Hold on a second.

Leo Laporte Oh! dear, now John is going to…

Jerry Pournelle What?

Leo Laporte Like a dog with a bone.

John C. Dvorak Hold on a second, just one second, I just want to have some simple question.

Leo Laporte Yes.

John C. Dvorak You calling me that Mr. Apple fan boy, you’re…

Leo Laporte I am not apparently a sufficient Apple fan boy!

John C. Dvorak One of the most important people probably – one of the biggest outlets of Tech News, you weren’t invited?

Leo Laporte Well, I could tell you Mac…

John C. Dvorak Are you sure you just didn’t pick up your email because you never open your email.

Leo Laporte I could tell you MacBreak Weekly has more listeners than Macworld Magazine has readers, yes, number one Mac podcast, but no, I didn’t get invited. And I don’t want – it sounds whiny if I said, you know, I didn’t get invited, but it’s – I think Apple doesn’t like me.

John C. Dvorak I think you should be whining. This is patently absurd.

Leo Laporte John, you…

Jerry Pournelle They didn’t invite me John, but then ever since Jobs got back in control, they don’t invite me with anything because…

Leo Laporte Did Steve not like you?

Jerry Pournelle Way back when I said the 128K Mac was a wonderful operating system attached to a toy computer. And he has never forgiven me.

Leo Laporte Oh! You are absolutely right about that. But I think that’s what happened is I pissed off.

John C. Dvorak You do one wrong thing and you’re out.

Jerry Pournelle That happened to me. I mean during the Scully era, I – they sent me everything they made plus you know cars to drive it in, but boy as soon as Jobs come back in, I went right off a little top of the list.

Leo Laporte So…

Jerry Pournelle That was when I was still running to.

Leo Laporte I was at the iPad announcement and I used to get invitations, that was the last thing I got invitation. That was back in January, the iPad announcement and I had a laptop, they weren’t streaming it at that time. So I held up my laptop in the audience, pointed at Steve Jobs and stream the event.

John C. Dvorak This is the event that nobody seemed to have gotten the good stream out of it except you on a laptop.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Andrew Keen Yeah.

John C. Dvorak Okay.

Andrew Keen And that’s the one I didn’t…

John C. Dvorak Wait, so hold on a second. Hold on I got another question. Wait a minute. Were you told specifically not to do it?

Leo Laporte Never at anytime and if I had been I would not have done it, it is said on my ticket, if there were signs in fact behind me there’s a roll of people shooting it on camera. So I thought well, I can do this, they never said at anytime. I held up the thing. Now here’s the problem. First of all, Steve sees me. Second of all, this frame is a capture from Apple’s official video of the event. Not only did they see me, they got me on camera. So do you think this maybe is why I don’t get invited anymore?

John C. Dvorak Are you sure?

Leo Laporte I don’t know.

Jerry Pournelle I don’t know – why don’t you ask them?

Leo Laporte I’m not going to ask them.

John C. Dvorak Call Keri Walker, she is still there, I don’t know.

Leo Laporte Keri is a good friend, I love Keri, I don’t think Keri would do that.

John C. Dvorak Why have I been blackballed which certainly is the case with you.

Leo Laporte I should actually –

John C. Dvorak Why have I been blackballed from all Apple events despite the fact that I probably move more Apple hardware than any single individual working today.

Leo Laporte Because – and Jerry you said it’s Steve Jobs holds a grudge.

Jerry Pournelle He certainly has held one against me for a long, long time.

Leo Laporte Jerry, next Apple event.

Jerry Pournelle And I don’t think it was a great operating system attached to a…

Leo Laporte Right.

Jerry Pournelle …toy computer.

Leo Laporte You know what, that was – that’s absolutely what it was. And I’ll say that as a guy who spent $2,000 on my Macy’s card buying my first Mac.

John C. Dvorak Wait a minute. No, no.

Leo Laporte What?

John C. Dvorak That’s okay.

Leo Laporte Macy’s, Macy’s. So no – I think Jerry, you and I next Apple event should stand upfront with big sign that says “Why, Steve? Why?” Will you join me John? Why, Steve? Why? John, did you get an invitation to the Apple event?

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte You are huge.

John C. Dvorak I am trying to lose weight.

Leo Laporte No but I mean really you are John C. – Andrew, did you get an invitation to the Apple event?

Andrew Keen To what?

Leo Laporte Huh? So I think we should – the four of us should go and stand upfront.

John C. Dvorak We might as well go with The Register, you know, they’ve been blacklisted.

Leo Laporte Really?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte I think we should have a little event of our own.

Andrew Keen Who’s the fellow with a little moustache who always gets invited?

John C. Dvorak Hitler!

Leo Laporte A little moustache.

Jerry Pournelle Is there a [indiscernible] (67:51) somewhere near the Apple event we can have a counter event?

Andrew Keen The little beard, - The Wall Street Journal guy.

Leo Laporte Oh, Walt Moss, I love it. From now on, I am calling Walt Mossberg the guy with a little beard.

Andrew Keen He always gets…

Leo Laporte Oh, Walt loves Apple and Apple loves Walt.

Jerry Pournelle He plays ball.

Leo Laporte He plays ball, you said it.

Jerry Pournelle He had a black ball.

Leo Laporte John, John that was the phrase right there. That’s the $64,000 phrase.

Andrew Keen But Apple is not a very media-savvy company, is it?

Leo Laporte Alright. So I did get an invitation to Google’s event on Wednesday, did you get that?

John C. Dvorak No, they don’t invite me but they’ve kind of told me that if I want to show up I could do that but –

Leo Laporte Well, for the time being, I’m still on Google’s list. The Google –

Andrew Keen Do they have anything to announce?

Leo Laporte Well, that’s what’s going to be interesting. I think Google might have something to announce this time. This is Marissa Mayer’s leading the event. They say it’s a search event based on the people speaking it really could just be. Here’s how our search is doing which is not worth going to cover. On the other hand, Google has said we’re going to do Google Music some time this year to compete with Apple. We know they are going to do Google TV some time this year to compete with Apple. Apple really kind of – I think Apple checked into use poker terminology with its Apple TV. I think they said let’s wait and see what Google is doing. We’re not going to go all in, yeah.

Andrew Keen What chance do they have with music?

John C. Dvorak That’s why – I agree with that.

Andrew Keen What chance? Seriously, they have 1 in 10 chance with music and then why are they even wasting their time?

John C. Dvorak Well, I think the music thing is still open for – up for grasp.

Leo Laporte Really?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, because I think that the Apple iTunes – the software – there the whole thing is – it’s just really, it’s coming.

Leo Laporte iTunes is coming and you know they announced to do iTunes and it was not an improvement in anyway. In fact all they did was to have a social network.

Andrew Keen What do they control? How much of the market do they control?

John C. Dvorak 90% I don’t know.

Leo Laporte All of it.

Andrew Keen As a promise, they have improved it to what 99%?

John C. Dvorak No, they just – there’s nobody that showed up – that’s shown up on the scene with a better system. That’s the problem.

Leo Laporte That’s why Facebook is so successful.

Andrew Keen How many times have you heard that?

Leo Laporte That’s the third leg on the Facebook – on the Google stool is a Facebook clone called, we think Google Me. So Google TV, Google Music, Google Me some time this year. What if they announce it Wednesday? That could be a very big event.

Andrew Keen What will they announce?

John C. Dvorak I think they’d have more teasers out if it was going to be that. I think it’s going to be something mediocre and ridiculous.

Andrew Keen What could Google Music be? Why would I want to go to Google for my music?

Leo Laporte Why not?

Andrew Keen Tell me what they have that would make me go there.

Leo Laporte You could buy it.

Jerry Pournelle Because iStore sucks?

Andrew Keen But iTunes is beautiful for buying music.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s terrible.

Leo Laporte No. You could do it much better.

Andrew Keen You guys are such purists.

John C. Dvorak No, not purists. My wife who’s not even into any of this stuff, she – all she does is moan and groan about it. She’s got a bunch of – I don’t know, the whole family’s got this iPods and my wife, oh, this is terrible, this is the worst software I’ve ever used.

Andrew Keen Oh! Your wife is sophisticated.

Leo Laporte Let me show you. This is the new Apple Ping. They announced a social network that is no way social because it doesn’t connect to anything. In fact they were when they showed it connecting to Facebook. But then Facebook said, nah uh and turned that off. So this social network tells you this is the kind of music. I live in Petaluma. 2599 people are following me. I like classical music, singer, song writer, music and spoken word. And here is music I like. This is what Apple – T-Pain 2 pack, Ludacris you know why? Because my iTunes account, my son, my family buys on. So there is no way even of separating out the music my son listens to from the music that I listen to.

Andrew Keen You like stuff like this?


Leo Laporte I am a gangstar rapper.

John C. Dvorak It sounds like you used to be driving around in a Volkswagen with a Sun Microsystems computer in the backseat.

Leo Laporte … that booty.

John C. Dvorak Jerry got it.

Leo Laporte That booty, I know that one. I love that.

Andrew Keen I’m not surprised you guys aren’t being invited to the Apple event. I think you have it in for them.

Leo Laporte There is my point, is that it’s a press event, they only invite people who say nice things about Apple? Is that how it works?

Andrew Keen Like the little fellow with the beard.

Leo Laporte Like the little fellow with the beard?

Jerry Pournelle It’s kind of close to that, you know. McGraw-Hill has some real problem with them at one time over some of that. And I presume that PCMag did the same – had the same kind of difficulty.

Andrew Keen On Wednesday I am going to be Washington DC trying to interview some of the policymakers at Google about net neutrality.

Leo Laporte Oh! That’s a good subject.

Andrew Keen More interesting than using it.

Leo Laporte Much more interesting but less relevant to our --

John C. Dvorak Send me a link.

Andrew Keen What do you know about your audience? No, I’m joking.

John C. Dvorak He knows you are 98%, he says…

Leo Laporte Male.

John C. Dvorak You know the No Agenda audience you might as well get a plugin.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak ….. is we have a little over 10% women, which I consider to be --

Leo Laporte That’s because Adam Curry is a god. He’s a chick magnet. He’s beautiful, man. I even like him.

John C. Dvorak No I think --

Leo Laporte He was on last week, you know.

John C. Dvorak I understand. He did okay.

Leo Laporte He did very well. He kept playing hot pockets.

John C. Dvorak Oh yeah. We got that hot pockets thing on.

Leo Laporte He’s a little – I think he got that from you. Overly fond of the sound effects, is he?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Can you find another story? I’ll do a little ad.

John C. Dvorak Somebody says because Adam Curry is a woman. That’s interesting.

Leo Laporte He has long hair.

Jerry Pournelle You know there is one piece to this that we have a thought about, which is the change in the industry. It wasn’t that long ago that Microsoft would have been the one that was trying to embrace and extend that iTunes music --

Leo Laporte Oh yeah.

Jerry Pournelle …that type of thing.

Leo Laporte What happened to Microsoft, Jerry?

Jerry Pournelle And they would have kept trying until they got it right. It would have tried a couple of times and it would have flopped and they would have tried again and it would have flopped, but eventually they would have found some hardware maker to get into partnership with them and between them they would have produced something that did pretty good. Look at it, for instance, there’s only two major mice companies left in this world. It took Microsoft a long time to get it right. But once they did, that Microsoft red eyed mouse kind of swept the industry, didn’t they?

A lot of stuff like that Microsoft did, they should have embraced and extended. They haven’t been doing that since Gates left the company and maybe that’s why.

Leo Laporte Do you think they lost their stomach for this?

John C. Dvorak Their mozo, man. They lost their mozo.

Leo Laporte They lost their mozo. Kind of feels like it.

Jerry Pournelle I think when Gates left, Microsoft lost its soul. I don’t mean that as a slam against the guy who is in charge there. But he was never more than an executive officer. He was the guy who carried out the commands of the skipper.

Leo Laporte It sure really feels like Microsoft is just an also ran nowadays in technology.

Jerry Pournelle Yes. I think once that Gates left, that company really became and also ran. That was the difference. I don’t for a moment believe that Microsoft was an accident. I think Bill Gates was one of the brightest people I’ve ever met in my entire life.

Leo Laporte Interesting.

Jerry Pournelle …and by bright I mean even when he – with 10% of his brain, he deigned to look at commercial aspects of things and he did better than most people do. I think –

Leo Laporte You agree, John?

John C. Dvorak Well, I agree about the overall situation with the company but I have to say that as a maintenance CEO, Ballmer has actually done a pretty good job that company really doesn’t lose money, they are still on a growth path, I mean it’s – for if you are a shareholder you can’t be complaining too much except for the fact that there is so little excitement at the company that it doesn’t generate any interest in the stock, so the thing languishes.

Jerry Pournelle That’s, that’s really what I meant. It’s lost its soul. He is a very good – it’s as if the skipper was dead and the executive officer is in command, he’s keeping the ship going. It’s going where it’s supposed to go. It’s just that there is no excitement left.

Andrew Keen As Steve Gilmour always used to say that – he probably still says it that Microsoft’s dead.

Leo Laporte He likes to say --

John C. Dvorak Steve likes to say that forever.

Leo Laporte Steve likes to proclaim things dead as we all know.

John C. Dvorak Microsoft’s dead.

Leo Laporte RSS is dead.

John C. Dvorak Flash is dead.

Leo Laporte Everything’s dead.

Jerry Pournelle Well if Microsoft is dead, we can give people their stock.

Andrew Keen Does Microsoft survive now in the age of Google and Apple and Facebook?

Leo Laporte Microsoft is surviving in the same way that IBM survived. Remember, we’re having this conversation with you, John, 15 years ago, IBM is dead and you said IBM cannot die. They are the walking corpse.

Andrew Keen Is that because of the corporate market?

Andrew Keen Yes by its market.

John C. Dvorak It’s they are this Queen Marriott’s, it’s like a giant ship.

Leo Laporte You can’t kill it.

John C. Dvorak Like Jerry just said, I think the captain analogy is fine, the captain fell off to side and --

Leo Laporte It just keeps going!

John C. Dvorak It keeps going, the ship is not going to stop.

Andrew Keen But General Motors and Ford were once like that, right?

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s true.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but they are somewhat cyclical too.

Leo Laporte They also have structural problems with their very business that are difficult to solve, I don’t know if – I mean that may come along. I mean Microsoft is still selling shrink-wrapped software.

John C. Dvorak It’s possible it could go the way of a company like General Motors where you have – but that you’d have to get rid of Ballmer. If you get rid of Ballmer, you have the potential to turn Microsoft – that’s why I defend Ballmer.

Leo Laporte You think Ozzie – Ray Ozzie could save Microsoft?

John C. Dvorak No, God, he would ruin the company.

Andrew Keen Why?

Jerry Pournelle Not Ozzie.

Andrew Keen Isn’t Ozzie the visionary?

John C. Dvorak Well there you have it, he’s been the visionary for the last five or six years. Where’s the vision?

Leo Laporte What’s he seeing?

John C. Dvorak What vision has he got? I don’t know, seems to be --

Leo Laporte The cloud, John.

Andrew Keen So what’s – so Ballmer is the sales guy, right? Just revenue.

Leo Laporte Yeah, Pretty much, yeah.

Andrew Keen Revenue, revenue, revenue.

Jerry Pournelle Wasn’t he originally Bill’s roommate at Harvard?

Leo Laporte Yes.

Jerry Pournelle Isn’t that how they met?

Leo Laporte Yes. In the Triumph of the Nerds, there’s that great scene…

Jerry Pournelle No actually he is sort of random selection of Harvard Business graduate.

John C. Dvorak I think they were in the same –

Jerry Pournelle Damn good smart guy but that doesn’t make him the genius that Gates is.

John C. Dvorak I know, yeah I know but I don’t think he was – I don’t know if he was his roommate specifically because he was a year ahead of him, he may have been in the same dorm floor something like that, I forgot. It’s in one of the books.

Leo Laporte Hey, to confirm what you said Andrew about nobody caring about Google Music. Did you know that this last week Sony rolled out a rival to iTunes?

Andrew Keen Yeah, I saw that.

Leo Laporte Did anybody note this?

Andrew Keen I did.

Leo Laporte It’s a cloud based music service on PlayStation 3s, Bravia TVs, Blu-ray players, Sony’s personal computers, it will offer movies, music will be added by the end of the year.

Andrew Keen I’ll tell you the stat that stuck out for me this week in the FT yesterday. Smart TVs currently two or 3% of the global market, they are estimating 33% by 2014. isn’t that going to change everything?

Leo Laporte Smart TVs playing.

John C. Dvorak I think that Smart TV isn’t going to change that much.

Leo Laporte What is a Smart TV?

John C. Dvorak It’s a TV that can take Internet streams and put in YouTube videos – that’s basically it.

Andrew Keen But it means that basically everyone who watches television is on the Internet, it’s convergence, right?

Leo Laporte I would say if –

John C. Dvorak You can unplug it.

Andrew Keen Yeah but why buy it? Why would you --

John C. Dvorak I think yes because it’s going to be the same price and have a lot of extra features.

Leo Laporte Many TVs now already have internet [indiscernible] (79:03) on them.

John C. Dvorak There’s a lot of features that are –

Leo Laporte And you can watch us on a Smart TV if you have –

John C. Dvorak You can do with Cranky Geeks.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Andrew Keen But that’s where the music market opens up, the movie market. That’s where Google’s opportunity is, right?

John C. Dvorak But before we get off to other Sony topic I want to mention some before we wander to that. I want to talk about that. Sony also brought out a new eReader –

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak Last week right after the Kindle came out they brought theirs and nobody paid any attention poor Sony is – these guys, what is their problem?

Leo Laporte Poor Sony.

Andrew Keen Did you see the stat about Sony that in Japan, the walkman now is outselling the iPod.

Leo Laporte Really?

Andrew Keen Yeah. Someone must be buying it.

Leo Laporte Somebody is buying it.

Andrew Keen I don’t know what the –

John C. Dvorak They probably have a good deal for some, who knows? So I think number two in this country is SanDisk.

Leo Laporte Oh, I know – I know exactly why. I can tell you exactly why because personal computer penetration in Japan is much lower than it is in United States and a iPod makes no sense; you have to have a computer. This is kind of Apple’s sometimes like --

John C. Dvorak It’s the Achilles’ heel.

Leo Laporte I think it’s an Achilles’ heel. Even the iPhone needs to activate through a computer and you certainly can’t copy music

Andrew Keen No Wi-Fi?

Leo Laporte No no, you go by an iPhone and try to make it work without iTunes on a computer, you can’t, unless you get them to activate in the store for you. But then you can’t put any music on it so I suspect that’s why Japan they are still buying CD players because they don’t have computers.

Jerry Pournelle That could well be.

Leo Laporte Yes. It’s a different – it’s a cultural issue. Somebody has done the math by the way. says if you were to buy every app in Apples App Store 250,000 plus apps it would cost you 673,000 dollars. It’s not much.

John C. Dvorak It’s not much?

Leo Laporte You can have every app though John.

John C. Dvorak I wonder if they would blow up the little device.

Leo Laporte Little thing.

Andrew Keen I mean the screens would sure.

Leo Laporte You would have a lot of screens.

John C. Dvorak I’ve got it in here somewhere. Just give me another minute.

Jerry Pournelle You guys all use iPads or not?

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte John is the hold out. I bet you Andrew is a hold out too. Are you a hold out?

Andrew Keen I’m mainly a hold out because I can’t afford one.

Leo Laporte I have one sitting in front of me, I know Jerry loves his.

Jerry Pournelle Yes, I have one sitting in front of me.

Andrew Keen Why are you a hold out John?

John C. Dvorak I don’t feel like having it.

Leo Laporte Don’t you want a farm?

John C. Dvorak That’s the problem.

Leo Laporte Look at my farm.

Andrew Keen It’s not farming but for reading books it’s better than reading Kindle aps is better on iPad than it is on a Kindle.

John C. Dvorak Well, not everyone would agree with that.

Leo Laporte I like the kindle Jerry. That’s interesting that you should say that.

Jerry Pournelle Well, I like the Kindle if I’m – be outside, or if I’m just stuffing it in a coat pocket but if I am going to carry a briefcase I’d carry the iPad, it works very well.

Andrew Keen I’m waiting for the next one, when would the next release be?

Leo Laporte Of the kindle or the iPad?

Andrew Keen The iPad.

Leo Laporte I would say they are going to do it for a year. John wants to show off my thing.

John C. Dvorak So he is basically, while he is the doing the show he is playing Farmville or something whatever games --

Leo Laporte We Rule.

John C. Dvorak We Rule.

Leo Laporte No, I’m not playing it.

John C. Dvorak Yes you are. I was wondering what you were fiddling with over there.

Leo Laporte No, actually it was off, but I’m watching for in case my magic cauliflower comes to harvest.

Andrew Keen So the next release is January.

Jerry Pournelle Magic cauliflower?

Leo Laporte [Laughter] Say that again, Jerry, magic cauliflower? I think we got a show title.

John C. Dvorak I am headed over to the south realm.

Leo Laporte Yes, check my south realm. That’s kind of the farm district but there is a University there…

John C. Dvorak They have a whole – little universe here.

Andrew Keen But is this a medieval…

Leo Laporte Not medieval…

Andrew Keen City builder type of thing?

John C. Dvorak You have a giant beehive.

Leo Laporte They are out of scale. That costs mojo actually, you can’t get beehive for money. You got to have mojo. Mojo actually is how the company [indiscernible] (83:16) that makes this makes money. This program is free, but if you want things to happen faster or you want to build a beehive you need mojo. And mojo costs money.

Jerry Pournelle Real, you mean like…

Leo Laporte Real.

Jerry Pournelle U.S. dollar?

Leo Laporte U.S. greenbacks Jerry.

Andrew Keen Doesn’t the audience every shut up?

Leo Laporte Doesn’t the audience ever shut up? Do we ever shut up? Let me take a break. WE are going to come back with more -

Jerry Pournelle Have I just been told to shut up?

Leo Laporte No, no Andrew is talking about the chat room. This is the first time anybody on the show has ever asked that question Andrew, I thank you for being here.

Andrew Keen Why?

Leo Laporte Doesn’t that audience ever shut up?

Jerry Pournelle I think I’m glad I can’t get it. I could have had it over on the screen over there and watch it but I didn’t do that.

John C. Dvorak Yeah I find it highly entertaining.

Leo Laporte I think the chat room is really the best part of the show. We told you not to look at it Andrew. You know there are over 1000 people in this room, so it’s going quite fast.

Andrew Keen I think it’s just full --

Leo Laporte Well, when you get 1000 people in IRC chat room you can see how fast it goes. I love the chat. Look, these are our most engaged audience and I will fight to the death to say --

John C. Dvorak One of your realms is pretty empty here.

Andrew Keen They’ve banned me Leo, is that right? The audience, I’m never going to come back they say?

Leo Laporte No, they don’t get to choose.

John C. Dvorak They don’t like you.

Leo Laporte Alright --

John C. Dvorak Let’s that a vote right now.

Leo Laporte Let me ask the chat room. How many in the chat room…

John C. Dvorak Thumbs up or thumbs down?

Leo Laporte Okay, say yes, if you want him to come back and no if you don’t. Let’s see.

John C. Dvorak Yes, yes, yes, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, no, holy crap, there it goes.

Andrew Keen Oh it’s going fast now.

Jerry Pournelle How many of you guys, who want me back on?

Leo Laporte How many of you – oh! I know that – yeses for that.

John C. Dvorak Yes or no for Jerry? Right now. On 3, 2, 1.

Leo Laporte Everybody wants Jerry back.

John C. Dvorak You have about, yes, you got most of the yes.

Andrew Keen Jerry, I have, serious question to ask you.

Jerry Pournelle Sure.

Andrew Keen Why doesn’t anyone dislike you?

Jerry Pournelle Oh, a lot of people do but they dislike me so much they won’t even watch the show I’m on.

John C. Dvorak Ask Steve Jobs that question.

Leo Laporte Jerry and I are going to go out in the next Apple event with signs, that say why Steve, why? And maybe a little tear.

Jerry Pournelle Don’t you love us anymore?

Leo Laporte What’s wrong with us Steve? Why?

Andrew Keen Do you know him well? You guys?

Leo Laporte I’ve partied with Steve. I’ve partied with Steve.

Andrew Keen You did?

Leo Laporte Yes.

Andrew Keen And what do you do?

Leo Laporte How about you Jerry? Do you know Steve from the old days?

Jerry Pournelle Not hardly. I knew Wozniak better than I do, did Jobs.

Leo Laporte I consider Woz a good friend, still, I think Woz’s 60th birthday was last week. Unfortunately, I couldn’t…

Jerry Pournelle Yes, I haven’t seen Woz in ten years but he used to come to those conferences they call the hackers conferences, John was there at the first one, and Wozniak showed up at many. I used to go to those every year for I don’t know, 10, 20 years. And Woz would come to some of those, I remember playing some of these crazy games with Wozniak and the guys who invented them that Magic game and stuff like that.

Leo Laporte Woz is a genuine sweet person.

John C. Dvorak Yes.

Andrew Keen And what about Jobs?

Leo Laporte Jobs genuine prick.

John C. Dvorak Yes.

Leo Laporte I would say. Does that seem unfair?

John C. Dvorak No.

Jerry Pournelle I don’t know him well enough to form an opinion.

John C. Dvorak That’s what everybody says.

Jerry Pournelle His memory…

Leo Laporte They say he has mellowed since his illness. They say he has mellowed quite a bit. He certainly talks a lot more about philosophical issues life and I don’t – it’s really unfair for me to say he is a prick; he is not a prick; he is a very arrogant, he believes he is the smartest guy in the room and he often is; I’m sure Bill Gates was a lot like that, Jerry.

John C. Dvorak No, Bill Gates was a lot different.

Jerry Pournelle No, Gates basically, when Gates got tired of a conversation generally now I – that thing with Mace was an interesting evening but usually when Bill gets weary of a conversation he just goes away.

John C. Dvorak Yes, he just walks off.

Jerry Pournelle You see him. He is gone. He is there, he is still standing there, he is still drinking his beer but he is gone, he is just not there anymore.

Leo Laporte Well, I do that. I haven’t been here for 20 years.

John C. Dvorak You actually walk away from a conversation too.

Leo Laporte I’ll give you the example of somebody who told me who was at a meeting with Steve, Steve comes in the room, and the guy at the meeting says, well, how was your weekend Steve? And Steve says can we raise the tone of conversation a little bit here and get to work. That’s Steve Jobs right there. He is – you like that drawing.

John C. Dvorak Is that Steve Jobs?

Leo Laporte I don’t know where that drawing came from. Anyway, I’m not going to tell – I did spend a social occasion with Steve, Will Hirst invited me, Steve, a bunch of other people to Wintoon which is the Hirst compound up there on the McCloud River, in Manchester area, Steve was there with his wife, his two small children, he was still at Pixar, he hadn’t gone back to Apple although he was poised to, I didn’t know this at the time, it was 93 I think, or 94…

John C. Dvorak Curiously, I went to Wintoon with Hirst and Gates.

Leo Laporte Yes, Will likes to have these – it’s beautiful up there, and it’s and boy if you have a place like Wintoon, Wintoon was built by William Randolph Hirst the I, of course, it’s a fake Bavarian village with like built in the style of Snow White, it’s bizarre and a beautiful area and they use it as a corporate retreat now, and Steve was there with his family, I read to his kids, we had some interesting conversations.

John C. Dvorak In your Nazi voice?

Leo Laporte Yes, hello, I am your interlocutor. I will read to you now.

Jerry Pournelle And you will listen.

Leo Laporte And you will enjoy. Let me – let’s take a break, we’re going to come back, talk more, we have a great panel here and where I lost control of this show exactly but John C Dvorak, channeldvorak,com, he is liking the iPad a little more than he’d like to admit, I think right about now.

John C. Dvorak Not really.

Leo Laporte Andrew Keen would like it but can’t afford it. At

John C. Dvorak Yes, it’s just a toy.

Leo Laporte It’s just a toy, it is, it’s a toy. It’s a toy for wealthy people. And of course the fantastic Jerry Pournelle who everybody loves.

Jerry Pournelle I just lived long enough, that’s it.

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s nothing. That’s isn’t even reflective of the real [indiscernible] (89:35).

Let me talk a little bit about our friends at Citrix, and GoToMeeting, a great product for people who do not want to travel and yet want to be effective and get things done, by the way as long as we are talking on the iPad, they’ve got a great GoToMeeting app on the iPad. So let’s say you get invited GoToMeeting works Windows or Mac, you start a meeting, you could do it ahead of time, send an email with a link, or you can, you are on the phone with people and you want to kind of raise the tone of the conversation a little bit by showing him the drawings, the spreadsheets, the PowerPoint presentation, so you say go to, here is the ID, now if you are meetees have an iPad, you just say here is the meeting ID, they launch GoToMeeting on the iPad and they are seeing your screen on their iPad or their Mac or their PC. And they’re hearing the audio through the speakers, you can even talk, because there’s a microphone on the iPad. So anywhere there’s WiFi, I’ve had meetings out in the yard out here. It’s just incredible.

Citrix really – they – I know, Jerry, you know Ed Iacobucci in the Citrix crew. They know their stuff. The GoToMeeting technology is the best in the business. It’s easiest to use, easiest to install. NAT traversal means you never have to spend any time configuring it.

I want you to go to right now, you could try it free for 30 days, A month of unlimited online meetings. And that includes by the way free VOIP and phone teleconferencing. So you’re set. You’ll have it installed before I’m done talking. We thank them so much for their support of this WEEK in TECH.

So, you know, I should ask you Jerry, because a couple of years ago, you had quite a health scare, we were all worried to death about you. But you seemed like you are in great shape these days.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, I had a meeting with my oncologist two weeks ago and he says I’m a bloody miracle.

Leo Laporte Wow. I’d tell you, when you were on the last time a few weeks ago, people said, wow, Jerry is like feisty and fit. And I’m really thrilled for you, Jerry.

Jerry Pournelle Well, I’m glad to be kind of back. I was on a few times during that period after the radiation, when I guess I probably wasn’t there half the time. But that’s old now. You know, 50,000 rad is a little like being a mile and a half from ground zero at Hiroshima and you got a wall with a hole in the wall and your head in the hole.

Leo Laporte That’s actually – one of the stories that we were going to talk to, they have these backscatter X-rays now they’re starting to use in airports. They’re starting to drive around with them in trucks now. These are the X-rays that see through clothes and see what you’re carrying. And I just read an interview with an oncologist who said, you know, this is – you’re exposed to radiation with these backscatter X-rays.

John C. Dvorak I think they cause cataracts.

Leo Laporte These are dangerous.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte And for the government to just kind of start randomly using them in situations where there’s not a urgent need.

John C. Dvorak I don’t think you should have them at the airports either.

Leo Laporte No.

Jerry Pournelle. I don’t either. I’m with John, I think those things are awful, and I’m scared to death of them.

Leo Laporte So it’s not merely the privacy, it’s the danger. They’re exposing us to radiation.

Jerry Pournelle Well, and I’ll tell you, radiation sickness is no fun. That was – that period of a couple of years after the cancer treatment until maybe this summer, most of that absent-minded professor effect that you got out of me was largely just due to radiation damage.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Were you on chemo as well?

Jerry Pournelle No, they couldn’t figure out what cancer I had. They couldn’t even get a biopsy. The neurosurgeon said that it would raise quality of life issues if he went in there even to get a biopsy. And I said, well I think we understand what you’re supposed to do. And so they decided pure radiation, because they couldn’t figure out which cocktail to make out of – but it worked, I mean it’s gone. The lump is gone, there is no piece of it left. Now most of my balance is gone too, but that’s not a bad price to have paid.

Leo Laporte Such good news, Jerry.

John C. Dvorak You had an inner ear affected from the radiation?

Jerry Pournelle Well, yeah, because the lump was in such a place that they got some damage to the inner ear pieces as they were going in. I’ve been deaf since the Korean War. But the balance business was largely due to radiation damage, yeah. It’s not a bad – I often carry a cane, but that’s not because of muscle weakness, it’s just – I can put it down to get my balance back.

Leo Laporte And if that Steve Jobs should ever show up, you’re going to give him a whipping he’ll never forget.

John C. Dvorak With the cane hit him.

Jerry Pournelle No, I won’t, I don’t do that anymore.

Leo Laporte You whippersnapper! I’d dance on your grave, sunny! That’s why I’d carry a cane.

John C. Dvorak I had an inner ear infection for about six months that was caused from some virus which gave me a balance issue.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, that’s awful, isn’t it?

John C. Dvorak That’s unbelievable, not to only that, but you – it just changes – it shows you that your hearing affects your perception.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah.

John C. Dvorak I mean things actually move.

Leo Laporte Wow!

John C. Dvorak I mean it was like being on LSD.

Leo Laporte Oh, really?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Jerry Pournelle I am working on a book called The Mask on the Wall, which is essentially – the title comes from the fact that when you get radiation therapy in your head, they mold this mask and put it over you, and it clamps you to the table. And it looks exactly like you, except it’s a hard plastic mask. But I’m planning on doing a – I’m doing the notes on a book on cancer survival as a result of the experience.

Leo Laporte Fantastic.

Andrew Keen Do you think…

Jerry Pournelle And how long it takes to get back to normal, which is longer than you think. Well, you remember, because I was on a year ago, and I think you were not exactly thrilled by some of the…

Leo Laporte You know, the only issue, Jerry, was your voice. I loved what you said. It was that we could hardly understand you, because your voice was suffering.

Andrew Keen Do you think we’ll ever look back in 50 years like we look back on things like tuberculosis and the black plague?

Leo Laporte I am open.

John C. Dvorak I think it’ll be worse. Tuberculosis is getting out of control now…

Leo Laporte TB we’re going to look back on and say, wish it were like it was.

Andrew Keen No, no…

Jerry Pournelle It used to be, yeah.

Leo Laporte But with cancer, we’re going to have genetic – we do a show called Futures in Biotech and it’s a fascinating subject, they’re getting very – every cancer is different. And if you could sequence the cancer that you have, you could make a cancer drug that would be – target that particular cell and no other. So the effects of chemotherapy would be totally benign, you wouldn’t need radiation, and you’d have effective treatments killing – you know, all cancer is, is a cell that reproduces without check. You’d be able to kill those cells by sequencing those cells. And I think that that is – from what I hear from the geneticists – not so very far off. So you’re right, and we might say five years from now, we might say – as we do about polio today – phew! Glad we dodged that bullet. I was at…

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, but polio may be back too.

Leo Laporte No.

Jerry Pournelle The problem is a lot of these say – I mean cancer is not a bacterial…

Leo Laporte Right.

Jerry Pournelle …infection.

Leo Laporte It’s damage.

Jerry Pournelle The problem is that…

Leo Laporte Transcription error.

Jerry Pournelle Yes. Bacteria and viruses to a lesser extent, but bacteria in particular, evolve very rapidly. They have many generations in a short period of time. And that’s why you’ve got so much of this MRSA and TB resistant – you know, antibiotic-resistant…

Leo Laporte Right.

Jerry Pournelle …tuberculosis vaccines and things. And of course, the Russian prison camps – other places too, but Russian in particular – are just breeding grounds for that, because they give them some antibiotics but not enough. And as a result, you are essentially breeding…

Leo Laporte Right.

Jerry Pournelle …resistant bacteria. I think cancer is probably easier to lick as a long-term thing in the – for the human race than tuberculosis.

Leo Laporte Of course all the physicians in our chatroom are saying I’m full of it, I’m wrong.

John C. Dvorak Well.

Jerry Pournelle In what way?

Leo Laporte Of course from a purely technical point of view, I’m sure I misstated it.

John C. Dvorak So what else do we have in the computer news segment, Leo?

Leo Laporte Nothing. We’re done.

John C. Dvorak Oh.

Leo Laporte All right, I’ll tell you this. I wish I had this.

John C. Dvorak I find that hard to believe.

Leo Laporte I like this – well, we’re almost done. But I love this ability. I want a Tweet-o-Meter. This is from a rove feeder. What they do is they monitor Tweet traffic.

John C. Dvorak Just like a Max Headroom thing you’re looking for.

Leo Laporte Like a lip-fart. They monitored Twitter traffic during the Steve Jobs’ talk, and they based on that say that the most interesting thing Steve said – they say popular, I don’t know if that’s a fair characterization – was the Apple TV. 2,271 Tweets per minute, that was the highest rate of tweeting. Apple was ranking up 38 Tweets a second, 136,260 Tweets an hour. Apple TV, 25%. iPod, 16%. Ping, 8%. iOS, 7%. So there are you – I don’t know what you make of that. But I wish I had that. Wouldn’t it be nice if we knew – we could do a Tweet-o-Meter?

Jerry Pournelle John, do you Tweet?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, of course I do.

Leo Laporte Oh, boy. If you asked him three years ago, he wouldn’t have said that.

John C. Dvorak No, no, I got on that rather quickly.

Leo Laporte Did you?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, I do because I use it as a crowd sourcing mechanism. I have just the right number – actually, I have probably a little too many, but I’m not going to complain about it. But…

Andrew Keen How many do you have?

John C. Dvorak I have 72,000, something like that.

Andrew Keen How did you get so many?

John C. Dvorak From asking…

Leo Laporte Plugging it like crazy on this show.

John C. Dvorak Well, for a while. Dvorak – THErealDVORAK, if you want to join up, and I can use it, I was writing a column once, Jerry, I remember doing this and I have decided I had a quote from – it was about [indiscernible] (99:58) it was for MarketWatch, I had to do it, it was on deadline and I needed this quote accurately and where he said it, and I just asked the audience and just within two minutes bang, bang, bang, bang, bang they all dug it up, because I could not find it because it was buried because…

Leo Laporte Oh yeah. That’s why use the chatroom for, the chatroom is like that.

John C. Dvorak It works like a champ.

Jerry Pournelle It is. Now, yeah, I used to do that on [indiscernible] (100:14) but it would take hours if not just seconds or minutes.

Leo Laporte I remember that.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, this is just a couple of minutes.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s – it’ a little, everything’s faster.

John C. Dvorak I was going to download some software I needed for to do a – to move a certain kinds of video formats from one to another and I just asked the crowd and they just within – they all have their own ideas but then you could just at least you knew where to go.

Leo Laporte You don’t Tweet Jerry?

Jerry Pournelle That is interesting that you can do that with Twitter, I mean one of the big advantages of being us, one of us, is that we all have access to tens of thousands of very smart people and there is probably no question that it has a real answer that we can’t get within in my case hours, maybe with John it’s minutes now.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s totally minutes or seconds, it’s amazing.

Leo Laporte Seconds.

Jerry Pournelle Maybe that’s a reason to Tweet. I never have one before, but…

Andrew Keen Get it now John, let’s have…

Leo Laporte Now let’s do with it – all right, let’s have a – let’s have a race between the chatroom and your Twitter followers. What should we ask?

Andrew Keen What used to be a good question?

Leo Laporte We need a good question.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but you can’t give the question until we have Twitter up.

Leo Laporte Okay.

John C. Dvorak Before we even get to twitter./my name…

Andrew Keen We have to get a concrete question or a conceptual one.

Leo Laporte It should be something that we could judge the answer, so I guess concrete, because we need to know that the correct answer was given, perhaps the correct phrasing of a quote or…

Andrew Keen Who won the World Cup in 1952?

Leo Laporte Who won…

John C. Dvorak No, wait a minute I am not even logged in yet for God’s sake.

Leo Laporte No wait a minute, stop. Okay, there’s the problem by the way.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s true. I mean you do have to log in, but I might be in…

Leo Laporte Spain.

John C. Dvorak And this is not my machine and I can’t figure it out how to get to the log in page.

Jerry Pournelle Is Twitter hard to setup?

John C. Dvorak No, it’s nothing to do – it’s nothing to setup at all, it’s brain dead easy.

Andrew Keen You are not on Twitter Jerry?

Jerry Pournelle No, I have never Tweeted.

Leo Laporte Let’s get him on Twitter.

Andrew Keen Got to be on it.

Jerry Pournelle I never thought of anything worth Tweeting about. The fact that I am…

Leo Laporte Oh, that doesn’t stop anybody else.

Jerry Pournelle The fact that I am having a ham sandwich for lunch is of interest only to me and maybe to my…

Leo Laporte No, no you don’t Tweet that.

Jerry Pournelle …wife who wants to buy some more ham.

Leo Laporte Well, first of all Jerry, you are going to absolutely Tweet when you’ve got a new blog post but you might also Tweet if you notice an interesting article, something that stimulates conversation. You might Tweet a open-ended question to see what kind of responses you get.

John C. Dvorak Okay, people in the – my Twitter followers 72,000, what I got, I got exactly 72,000 people out there.

Leo Laporte There was no World Cup in 1952, a trick question. Andrew Keen you are savvy.

Andrew Keen You got like a million…

Jerry Pournelle What was the first year of the Dvorak/Pournelle party at COMDEX?

John C. Dvorak I don’t think anybody would know that Jerry because I sure don’t.

Leo Laporte Let’s get some…

Jerry Pournelle That’s the reason why…

Leo Laporte All right, no, let’s see if they can find it. We are trying to find this out. When was the first Pournelle/Dvorak COMDEX?

Jerry Pournelle The first Pournelle – Dvorak/Pournelle party at COMDEX in Las Vegas.

John C. Dvorak It does not going to work as a question because we don’t know the answer.

Leo Laporte Oh you need a right answer.

John C. Dvorak So people are going to come with all kinds of dates and times.

Leo Laporte Everybody says…

Jerry Pournelle Well, we know close because we know who came in later and bought lots of champagne on his credit card, remember Philippe?

Leo Laporte Oh Philippe Kahn.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, Philippe used to do stuff like that.

Leo Laporte He is a big sailor now, he races out here in the Bay all the time. I was out – I saw him out there.

John C. Dvorak Bloated with – he got into the…

Leo Laporte You know what he did?

John C. Dvorak apps business.

Leo Laporte You know what he did? He had a baby and he took a picture of the baby…

John C. Dvorak Who have exactly 72,000, anyway?

Leo Laporte He said if I could just get this pictured, all my friends and family said you know a camera phone, a cell phone that has pictures, that would be a pretty good way to do it. He – you could thank Philippe Kahn for the infrastructure that makes pretty much all cell phone photography work.

Andrew Keen Who is he?

Leo Laporte Philippe Kahn the guy used work at Borland International.

Jerry Pournelle Started with Borland Pascal. In fact he started with me.

John C. Dvorak He is a hustler.

Jerry Pournelle I did the first review of his product…

Leo Laporte Did you?

John C. Dvorak You made him a rich man.

Leo Laporte I forgot Jerry, you loved…

Jerry Pournelle Having worked this way what happened was that he had no money, and he sent me this copy of the thing and I looked at it and by golly, it was the best Pascal out there at the time and I wrote that out in the column and…

Leo Laporte And I bought it by the way because you said that Jerry.

Jerry Pournelle I sent him a copy of the – an early copy because you remember Byte in those days was paper magazine so it took three months from the time I wrote something until it came out and he looked at that and went to the Byte salesman in the Bay Area and said look I am going to get this great review, you have got to advance me the money and let me on credit buy a full page ad in the magazine and the salesman looked at him and said yeah, that looks good, that probably will work and then he took that and he went around to every other magazine in the business and he told people look Byte is giving me credit and by golly when it came out that month he had full page ads in every magazine in the industry and he was – he sold something like 100,000 copies of Borland Pascal in 3 or 4 weeks which built his company from nothing.

Leo Laporte Well, our chatroom has come up with this article from Byte Magazine, the Chaos Manor column in 1987. The first reference, published reference of the annual Pournelle/Dvorak COMDEX party sponsored by Will Hearst.

Jerry Pournelle All right.

Leo Laporte Now, my feeling would be that there’s got to have been earlier ones since it said the annual Pournelle/Dvorak.

John C. Dvorak Right, that would indicate it’s been in play.

Leo Laporte Unless Jerry was a little tongue-in-cheek here.

John C. Dvorak No, I don’t know.

Jerry Pournelle No. I think it was earlier than ‘87.

John C. Dvorak Let’s come up with a question for the chat – TWiT challenge.

Leo Laporte I got to say though. That’s pretty impressive the chatroom actually came up with the…

John C. Dvorak The chatroom has got 1,000 people and it’s about – that’s a good number. They are all on right now.

Leo Laporte It’s a good number.

John C. Dvorak My number of people that are actually on Twitter is low, is probably 5,000.

Andrew Keen Are they all Wi-Fi installers, Leo?

Leo Laporte I don’t know. Do you have a Wi-Fi question? Would you like some help with your Wi-Fi?

Andrew Keen Yeah.

Leo Laporte Andrew, you can get some…

Jerry Pournelle There is a chance.

John C. Dvorak What do you want to know?

Leo Laporte Here’s a chance, Andrew.

Andrew Keen I am paying $70 at Is it worth it?

Leo Laporte No. For DSL?

Andrew Keen I don’t know, it’s like high-speed, but I can’t tell the…

Leo Laporte Is it Wi-Fi only, you don’t have a hardware?

John C. Dvorak This is a brain dead question, this is no good.

Leo Laporte That’s no good.

John C. Dvorak We can get something that’s more…

Leo Laporte And by the way the answer from the chatroom, no.

Jerry Pournelle No, that’s not worth that money.

Leo Laporte No.

Jerry Pournelle I can [Indiscernible] (106:35) in front of my cable modem package.

Leo Laporte No. We pay $700 to but we get a little bit more than that, yeah.

Andrew Keen Is there? I would hope.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s the bandwidth we use right now to stream the show and to the Skype calls and everything.

Jerry Pournelle He should pay just because he is clueless.

Leo Laporte The chatroom is saying you better.

Jerry Pournelle Andrew, that – you have been insulted.

Leo Laporte You have opened up a can of worms.

Andrew Keen Thank you, Jerry.

Leo Laporte Oh, no. you didn’t. All right, I am going to wrap this up. You guys are great. We will have the great Twitter chat race another time unless we can come up with something.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Andrew Keen We must have a --

Jerry Pournelle No, I think we should have it another time when John’s got his [indiscernible] (107:22) all set and ready for it. And then we’ll just do it, chat room versus Twitter.

Leo Laporte I’ve got one. What are The Thirty-Nine Steps?

John C. Dvorak Depends on whether you’re talking about the movie or the book.

Jerry Pournelle Right.

Leo Laporte Oh! There’s a different answer in the book.

John C. Dvorak Oh! Yeah. Big time.

Jerry Pournelle Yes. Quite different.

John C. Dvorak The book is totally different than the movie.

Leo Laporte Oh, interesting. I love that movie.

Andrew Keen Okay, what year was Hitchcock’s Vertigo made?

Leo Laporte That’s too easily Googled.

John C. Dvorak No, that’s too easily Googled.

Andrew Keen So it has to be --

John C. Dvorak It has to be something that --

Jerry Pournelle What were The Thirty-Nine Steps? Yes that’s a good question.

Leo Laporte What were – because you couldn’t just – well, I guess, you could Google it.

John C. Dvorak You could Google it.

Leo Laporte What were The Thirty-Nine Steps?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Jerry Pournelle Well, you do have to know that they are different from the movie and --

Leo Laporte Right.

Jerry Pournelle The book, by the way, is very much worth reading even though it’s written in the style of that time.

John C. Dvorak It is. I agree.

Leo Laporte Really? I have to get it. Who wrote it?

Jerry Pournelle But it’s still readable.

Andrew Keen John Buchan. Isn’t it?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, some African who wrote it but it’s available online free as a download.

Leo Laporte Oh.

John C. Dvorak And you can put it on your Kindle and read.

Andrew Keen John, well, that’s a good question. Who wrote it? John Buchan, right?

John C. Dvorak Well, that’s another Googler. You can Google that faster --

Leo Laporte It’s hard to come up with a question that isn’t easily Googled.

John C. Dvorak The problem – the thing that I use the Twitter for is when you have something that’s so much in the news that the answer to the question can’t be Googled because if you try to Google it, you get – it’s buried, it’s down because you have a million things that are on top of it. And that’s when the crowd-sourcing works. Otherwise, you can just Google it.

Andrew Keen So what kind of question is it?

John C. Dvorak Well, like a weird quote that was made by someone.

Leo Laporte Well, I think a good one would be when was the first Dvorak-Pournelle Comdex party? That actually would be a perfect example because not easily Googled.

John C. Dvorak It’s not Googled at all.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jerry Pournelle It’s not Googled because neither one of us even remotely --

Leo Laporte Nobody knows.

Jerry Pournelle But if they get it right, we can probably associate it with what was going on in Las Vegas at that time.

Leo Laporte They need a reference. They need – like this person did, a link to Chaos Manor column.

John C. Dvorak I also wrote about it in the old InfoWorld. So it’s quite...

Jerry Pournelle Well, it’s in one of John’s columns.

John C. Dvorak Yeah. For sure.

Leo Laporte By the way, I am told that I should read bear’s tweet. All right, so bear is tweeting to us. Bear is our sysadmin here. Let me just quickly pull that up. Your first party – oh, my gosh! Oh, my gosh! therealdvorak, your first party was in 1985. Here is the write-up you did --

Jerry Pournelle Yup, ‘85 sounds good.

Leo Laporte Look at John. Look at John, Fear and Loathing at Comdex Parties.

John C. Dvorak Those glasses – those are the glasses that the Tech Grouch wears.

Leo Laporte Would you wear them? Oh, you do.

Jerry Pournelle Fear and Loathing at Comdex Parties, yep.

Andrew Keen But you don’t wear glasses anymore.

Leo Laporte The party. Okay.

John C. Dvorak Glasses like that?

Leo Laporte On Monday before leaving, I met with Wes Thomas, was that Karen Thomas’s father?

Jerry Pournelle Yes. Karen Thomas’s father.

Leo Laporte The event-minded PR star from East Northport, New York. Wes would coordinate “The Party”, referring to the Dvorak-Pournelle-Hearst yearly ad hoc party. Again, yearly, I suspect there might have been an earlier one?

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte It’s designed as an alternative party for writers and celebrities and anyone who could find it. There would be no written invitations. Unfortunately, there was no acceptable place to hold the party. Wes had lined up the Neiman-Marcus Fashion Mall, but some nervous administrative –

Jerry Pournelle Oh, that – wait, that was about the fourth one –

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jerry Pournelle The Neiman-Marcus party.

Leo Laporte Well, wait a minute, no, no, the Hughes Cottage, the Hughes suite, the Terrace Room and the Fashion Mall had all been considered. For a short time, we were going to the Italian-American Hall. It was too far a walk, raced out to the Meadows Mall to pick up a rented tuxedo. Where did you have it?

John C. Dvorak I don’t know, I don’t even remember this column.

Jerry Pournelle I remember it, I remember it.

John C. Dvorak I jumped into the rented Ford and zipped over to the secret Apple party. This was the party of Comdex. Apple held it at the Bay Shore Restaurant, rock-and-roll groups, dancing ladies, and a huge crowd, in a drunken frenzy.

Andrew Keen What year was this?

John C. Dvorak This was ‘85.

John C. Dvorak ‘85.

Leo Laporte These were the good old days.

Jerry Pournelle Well, I guess – our first one had been [indiscernible] (111:14) like ’83, maybe ’84.

John C. Dvorak I think the first one was in the hotel. I think it was at the Desert Inn.

Jerry Pournelle It was in the Desert Inn, was the first one.

Leo Laporte You said, this was at the Gable ballroom. It was an unscheduled event, 100 or so party-goers, Jim Seymour holding court at the bar. Finally, most guests arrived in the ballroom, food and liquor donated from InfoWorld, 800 Software, Gates Distributing, Computer Currents, Hercules, the party began. Philippe Kahn made his annual good-luck appearance with his traditional public announcement of “Champagne for everyone!” Even the reclusive Bill Gates, even in ’85, he was reclusive, attended. Listen to these names, Trip Hawkins, Dan Bricklin, Lee Felsenstein, Gary Kildall, and David Bunnell.

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, we used to have great parties.

John C. Dvorak Well, the thinking behind the party was that if you had some big names, and Jerry and I talked about this stuff all the time. You put some big names, you get Hearst, Pournelle, Dvorak and you organize a party, throw another few big names out, and then everyone just gravitates to it. And so it was very successful for year after year, and then of course it, it became too big.

Leo Laporte Here we go.

John C. Dvorak And that became a problem.

Leo Laporte Another suggestion from the chat room, this is Dvorak’s Inside Track column, in the back of InfoWorld, Comdex Party Success Formula. I decided to organize a Thursday night party as a last minute ad-lib to save the show for myself and friends. I called my friend, Will Hearst, and fellow columnist, Jerry Pournelle. This is it. This is the beginning. It would be the first annual No-Name Party.

John C. Dvorak No-Name.

Leo Laporte And the date is December 24, 1984.

John C. Dvorak Okay.

Leo Laporte And the chat room got it.

John C. Dvorak Well, you didn’t give my people a chance.

Leo Laporte Set my people free, says John C.

John C. Dvorak All right.

Leo Laporte But we did get the answer.

John C. Dvorak You got one from Twitter and you got one from the chat room. The first one was from Twitter.

Leo Laporte Bear on twitter, he got 1985.

John C. Dvorak Right, he is off –

Leo Laporte I think the chat room won that one big time.

John C. Dvorak Right, the chat room --

Jerry Pournelle Yeah, they win, ‘84 was –

Leo Laporte With a link and that was web2745.

John C. Dvorak All right.

Leo Laporte Thank you, web2745.

John C. Dvorak Well, if that doesn’t bore him stiff, nothing will.

Leo Laporte I tell you. Now we’ve officially jumped the shark.

John C. Dvorak No kidding.

Leo Laporte Pretty much every show now.

John C. Dvorak Once again. Oh, yeah. It’s a weekly shark jump.

Leo Laporte We should call the show, forget TWiT, jumps the shark.

John C. Dvorak Again.

Leo Laporte Again.

Jerry Pournelle The Weekly Shark Jump. I like that.

John C. Dvorak The Weekly Shark Jump.

Leo Laporte Hey, you know, that’s a great name for a show.

John C. Dvorak It would be.

Jerry Pournelle Weekly Shark Jump.

John C. Dvorak You know what, now you can jump the shark.

Leo Laporte Wow.

John C. Dvorak You pre-jump the shark.

Leo Laporte Ladies and gentlemen, we do thank you for joining us. If you would want to watch this unedited, unexpurgated and live, you could do so at every Sunday. We do it at 2200 UTC. That’s 3:00 PM Pacific, 6:00 PM Eastern. You can also join the chat room. So you too can watch and mock as we jump the shark. That’s and of course after the fact, the show is memorialized for all eternity at You’re trying to make that squeak,, just frankly. That’s it. Is this going to be edited, I doubt it – I doubt it. John C., great to have you, as always and No Agenda is fantastic with that Adam fella. Don’t forget the Tech Grouch, and of course Cranky Geeks, your TV show now.

Jerry Pournelle That’s Triangulation.

Leo Laporte Triangulation is a show that John and I did once many moons ago with Larry Lessig and really should do again.

Andrew Keen Larry Lessig?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah, he was a guest. That’s Adam – Andrew Keen. He is ajkeen on Twitter,, if you would like to follow him. His book is called, wait a minute, let me get it right.

John C. Dvorak Apparently, no fan of Lessig.

Leo Laporte I love – you love Larry Lessig. Don’t you? Who doesn’t love Larry Lessig.

John C. Dvorak See.

Leo Laporte No, he shook his head. The Cult of the Amateur, How the Internet’s Screwing Everything up for Everybody. I keep getting that subtitle wrong.

John C. Dvorak Oh.

Jerry Pournelle I like that thesis, I’m not sure.

Leo Laporte Oh, you know what, Jerry? You should read the book. It’s very well thought out, very well written and quite challenging. It got my blood boiling.

Andrew Keen It did?

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah, I was pissed.

John C. Dvorak You were pissed?

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah, coz I am the amateur.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but that’s bogus. You’re not the amateur, you’re a fake amateur.

Leo Laporte But, I represent – I am a believer in the democracy of the Internet and I think that’s part of the power of it.

John C. Dvorak As long as you are the leader.

Jerry Pournelle As long as you are in charge, now come on, you’ve kind of taken my place, Leo.

Leo Laporte Oh, man. You stole my heart.

John C. Dvorak He is going to be putting that on his business card now.

Leo Laporte If Jerry Pournelle says, I have taken his place, I don’t’ think so, Jerry. But I do – I am immensely flattered that you’d even say anything like it. Jerry Pournelle is literally the guy who got me started in this business many, many years ago, and really informs everything I do because always Jerry represented the user, users first. Jerry, thank you so much for being here, He continues to write the Chaos Manor column. You can subscribe to it there and read all of his other readings. Thank you, Jerry, for being here. We really appreciate. And John and I want to come to your – I think we should do a TWiT from Jerry’s library.

Jerry Pournelle Any time.

Leo Laporte We would love to do that. John and I would come down.

Jerry Pournelle We can set things up here, yeah.

Leo Laporte Just look at it. And John tells me that’s just a fraction of the total --

Jerry Pournelle This is a small room. The great hall is the one that you see through the door over my shoulder.

Leo Laporte Holy cow! I want to go to the great hall.

John C. Dvorak You’d probably find a few books you would like to read.

Leo Laporte One or two. Jerry, thanks for being here, you’re the greatest. Thank you, all, for joining us. We will see you next time. Another TWiT is in the can.

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