TWiT 271/Transcript

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Episode 271


This transcript is provided by our friends at Pods in Print

Introduction Netcasts you love, from people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte Audio bandwidth for This Week in Tech is provided Winamp, subscribe to TWiT and all your favorite podcasts with the ultimate media player. Download it for free at Video bandwidth for TWiT is provided CacheFly at

This is TWiT: This Week in Tech, episode 271, recorded October 24, 2010: The Chicken Is The Bun.

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Its time for TWiT, This Week in Tech, the show that covers your latest technology news with deep analysis from great minds like these. What the hell? Clayton Morris is here.

Clayton Morris What?

Leo Laporte He’s wearing the Phillies outfit, From Fox and Friends, hey, Clayton.

Clayton Morris Hey, Leo. Thanks for having me on your show.

Leo Laporte I believe – and we should get this out of the way before the others join us, because I think they’re nerds. And they’re not into the great manly sport of baseball. But we had a wager, I believe, Mr. Morris?

Clayton Morris Yeah, last week, I think – what was it? During game 1? You Tweeted that Cody Ross was…

Leo Laporte My boyfriend.

Clayton Morris Your new boyfriend. You’re in love with Cody Ross.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Actually, we’re engaged now, yeah.

Clayton Morris I’m glad I sent you guys an engagement present. I said he’s the most hated man in my house right now. Because of course I’m from Philadelphia, so this just absolutely chapped my behind. And then you and I had a friendly wager that if the Phillies were to win, you would end up wearing a full Phillies regalia on TWiT. And if I was to win – vice versa if you were to win, I’d wear a full Giants outfit.

Leo Laporte Wait a minute, let me just check here. I believe the – I may be wrong, but I think the Giants won!

Clayton Morris Yeah, so I can’t believe this is – I had root canal one time, and this is actually going to pain me.

Leo Laporte We sent Clayton an outfit. But you know, we forgot one thing, Clayton.

Clayton Morris What?

Leo Laporte The black beard. You don’t have a black beard anywhere, do you?

Clayton Morris If you give three days – can we continue this show for three days? I can do that, I can grow it just for you.

Leo Laporte Just grow it. Yeah, yeah.

Clayton Morris Alright, I’m going to do this. I have to take my headset off, I’m taking it off…

Speaker This is so humiliating. Poor guy.

Leo Laporte Oh, my god. Is this what we sent him? Or, yeah, okay. We didn’t make Clayton buy a Giants. It could have been worse, we could have made him buy it.

Clayton Morris I’d wear anything but a Phillies uniform. In fact I wear only Phillies underwear everyday. And here’s this Phillies hat – there’s a San Francisco Giants hat.

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah. We sent you the patriotic one.

Clayton Morris So I’m wearing it kind of like Fifty Cent.

Leo Laporte You’re kind of – very gangsta, isn’t it?

Clayton Morris Yeah, I just keep the bill flat and keep the sticker on.

Joshua Topolsky I think this looks nice, actually. This is a big improvement.

Cali Lewis Great. It just stands out there.


Leo Laporte Oh, the humiliation. Oh my god. If you have it – if you’re listening to audio, you got to check in for the video. You know what? Let’s do this. Let’s put this on the front page of TWiT. Maybe have a – I don’t know – Clayton Morris hands on. His first Giants exposure.

Clayton Morris Oh. This is the first time I’ve ever – you know I used to – when I played Little League, I was playing t-ball, I was on the Phillies, when I played the little league I was on the Phillies, you know Phillies’ version of whatever it was. Baseball I was on Phillies. And I’ve been to tons – dozens and dozens of Phillies games. I’ve never once worn a Giant’s outfit.

Leo Laporte I like soft pretzels, does that count?

Clayton Morris Some soft pretzels and a cheese steak. Or I’m just going to send you – the best cheese steak in all of Philadelphia, little – people don’t know unless they’re from there – is from John’s Roast Pork from South Philadelphia. They’re open only till three in the afternoon. And there’s a line out the door and it is…

Joshua Topolsky The Pat’s.

Clayton Morris No, no. Pat’s is terrible…

Joshua Topolsky Geno’s, Geno’s.

Clayton Morris Geno’s?

Leo Laporte All right, before you guys get – I better bring in Joshua Topolsky. He is with Engadget. He’s obviously been to Philadelphia once or twice, but he’s – right now he’s in Brooklyn.

Joshua Topolsky Fortunately, yes.

Leo Laporte And not a baseball fan. And also joining us – as long as we’re going through the list here, we should also say hello to Cali Lewis, who is also here. And she’s visiting Atlanta.

Cali Lewis I am.

Leo Laporte So really in some ways, you’re also part of this rivalry, since the Giants beat Atlanta to get to the Phillies game.

Cali Lewis Oh. I claim nothing.

Leo Laporte But you are a Texas Rangers fan?

Cali Lewis Sure!

Leo Laporte Good!

Cali Lewis I enjoy going to Rangers fan – Rangers baseball game. What do they call it?

Leo Laporte It’s called baseball, that’s it – home runs, batters, yeah.

Clayton Morris Is that what we’ve been talking about for the past five minutes? Baseball?

Leo Laporte You guys are such nerds. So in fact, maybe Cali and I can have a little wager for the World Series, that might be kind of fun. What would you be willing to do, Cali, if the Giants beat the Rangers in the World Series?

Cali Lewis I’m so not good with bets.

Leo Laporte All right. But I’ll let – you know what? I’ll let Clayton come up with one, since it worked so well for him.

Cali Lewis Right.

Clayton Morris No, you don’t want me on this side.

Joshua Topolsky You look so good in a Giants shirt.

Clayton Morris Because you’re going to end up looking like this if I get involved.

Leo Laporte Fifty Cent! So…

Cali Lewis I think it might actually fall down even further on my head, because you’re – because that’s pretty bad.

Leo Laporte Yeah, it’s pretty big. We – I don’t know why we assumed you had such a large noggin there.

Clayton Morris It’s like Andy Capps’ hot fries. Cliff Lee on Wednesday, that’s a big deal, Cliff Lee for the Rangers going against Tim Limsicum.

Leo Laporte No, I think Kane is going to start for us. Which is a little odd.

Clayton Morris Really?

Leo Laporte Yeah, I would have assumed Limsicum as well. Anyway, enough baseball talk.

Joshua Topolsky This is a tech show.

Leo Laporte Let’s talk about – yeah.

Clayton Morris Congratulations to you, Leo. Honestly, I’ll be a good sport, congratulations.

Leo Laporte And congratulations to the Phillies, who did very well and won their division and really – two years in a row, [indiscernible] (6:55) I mean it’s a great team. And I did not think we had a shot at it. Although I have to say, I kind of – I had – this was bad, I had a Philly cheese steak sandwich during the game last night. I really did.

Clayton Morris Actually beforehand.

Leo Laporte But to really confuse you, I had it from a place called Buffalo Chicken Wings.

Clayton Morris Oh, I know that place.

Leo Laporte Yeah it’s good.

Clayton Morris Yeah, it’s delicious.

Joshua Topolsky Go Geno’s.

Cali Lewis Actually it’s good. I mean Philly Cheese Steak from Buffalo Chicken Wings.

Leo Laporte It’s weird. Geno’s – you’re a Geno’s guy and you say the – Clayton, you say John’s? I’ve been to Geno’s.

Clayton Morris John’s Roast Pork in South Philadelphia. I’m telling you, Pat’s and Geno’s are the tourist traps.

Leo Laporte That’s where I go.

Clayton Morris You go there in the morning when you’re loaded, you probably were loaded if it was a morning.

Leo Laporte I was, I was.

Clayton Morris That’s the only reason you go there. But try it, next time – anyone who’s watching, go to John’s Roast Pork in South Philadelphia. Tell him I sent you and they won’t do anything for you.

Joshua Topolsky Clayton gets a discount if ten people tell him.

Clayton Morris Yeah, right. John doesn’t care. Free Philly Cheese Steak.

Leo Laporte ‘What? I know Clayton Morris.’

Clayton Morris You have to order properly or you get kicked out.

Leo Laporte Yes, that’s right. So tell us, you know – this I know, and then we will talk about tech. How should I order a Philly Cheese Steak properly?

Clayton Morris Well you go in, first of all, you go in to John’s Roast Pork and say ‘anything from the grill? Anybody want anything from the grill?’ And if you don’t – if you don’t know what you’re talking about, if you don’t know that a cheese steak comes from a grill and you walk up and you want roast pork, they have the roast pork ready to go. You’ve got to order it with either with provolone or you want wit. If you get wit, which is W-I-T, that means wit the cheese whiz.

Leo Laporte It’s velveta, yeah. Crap.

Clayton Morris Yeah. It’s the one ever – don’t do the cheese…

Leo Laporte But isn’t that the real?

Joshua Topolsky That’s the way to do it.

Leo Laporte I thought, that’s what I thought that was the real thing.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, you got to get the cheese wiz.

Clayton Morris No, no, no. No, no the chopstick, really good chopstick, and provolone.

Leo Laporte Provolone.

Clayton Morris The provolone, a little red sauce, that’s the oomph.

Joshua Topolsky So it is some hoity toidy cheese steak chopstick.

Leo Laporte Ain’t it? So I want a cheese stick wit?

Clayton Morris Yeah, cheese steak wit. That will get you with the nasty cheese, or you can get a cheese steak with provolone, and that’s the good cheese. Trust me, I’m telling you.

Leo Laporte The chat room is just like – ‘this is supposed to be a tech show!’

Joshua Topolsky I agree with the chat room.

Leo Laporte ‘You guys are…’ So when Joshua joined us, before they began recording, he said ‘I got a bone to pick with you, Laporte.’

Joshua Topolsky Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky Me and you.

Leo Laporte Joshua, me and you buddy, to the max. So you did it again, you did again. Look, here’s Engadget from just the other day. MacBook Air 11.6 inch, first hands on! Exclamation mark. Update video! Exclamation mark.

Joshua Topolsky Oh, okay so you had – let’s just go back…

Leo Laporte That’s the demo table. We were all there. Well, I wasn’t.

Joshua Topolsky So on Windows Weekly, you complained that Engadget was – were just trying to get page views by posting hands-on from events.

Leo Laporte You’re not trying to get page views?

Joshua Topolsky Well, we – everything we do tries to get page views, because that’s how we run our business, we need to get people to look at it or else we go away. But we’ve been doing hands-on posts from events since the dawn of Engadget, right? So that’s something we do. Our readers want to see this stuff for real in the hands of a human being out in public, not on some like nice press shot. So that’s the idea of the hands-on. The first hands-on, that’s like our first hands-on. But, I mean the idea is, I mean it’s our first encounter with the thing. But I would argue that there was no one else who had that hands-on up before we did on that day.

Leo Laporte Actually, we beat you, because we had the live video from…

Joshua Topolsky You had detailed photos up before we did?

Leo Laporte Well, how detailed. Let’s see. Let me look, is this detailed?

Joshua Topolsky Detailed enough, it’s a hands-on.

Leo Laporte Detailed. No – but we had a – yeah, I showed you the video before the – I’m not going to fight with you.

Joshua Topolsky It’s Steve Jobs. I didn’t see a device in that video. So I think...

Leo Laporte I just showed you the Steve Jobs interview. We actually had a hands-on – and Becky Worley is holding it up and she’s showing in front of the camera and all that stuff. We did that live. So, no, we did beat you. But we didn’t it on the front page of Twit with exclamation, we’ve got a – it’s a demo! Everybody’s there! What’s the big deal?

Joshua Topolsky Well, the big deal is...

Cali Lewis Calm down, calm down, guys, make up.

Joshua Topolsky ….it’s not for our pride to say that we had the first hands-on. The big deal is, our readers who aren’t there and that’s….

Leo Laporte They want to see it.

Joshua Topolsky Thousands of – millions of people.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky They want to see what this thing looks like in person. They want to see if it looks like next to a real MacBook, they want to know what it looks like next to an iPhone, they want to see the ports, they want to see the bottom of it, they want to see it open and close. And that’s what we do. I mean, the idea is, we have gadget junkies who are sitting around waiting to get a closer look at this. Here, look – this is how big it looks compared to a regular MacBook.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky So that’s the idea of the hands-on. It’s to show the fanatics who are reading our site like what this thing actually looks like.

Leo Laporte I stand corrected. I now understand your nomenclature. Hands-on means the first time we got our hands on this device. It doesn’t matter where, it could be a demo event.

Joshua Topolsky And it’s not a – we’re not trying to be disingenuous at all. It’s – the goal is to show people what the thing is actually like in person, in your hands, and give them a better idea of this product that they can get from a press shot. And yeah, these are some beautiful pictures I took.

Leo Laporte They actually are. You took these? They are very nice.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah. I took these. You don’t know. This is crazy – this is the most stressful thing in the world at these events, is we rush out after Jobs is done and we run to these tables and desperately try to get these photos as quickly as possible and get them online. You know, because it is – there’s a certain amount of a race going on because you want to get them – you want to be the first to get them out there.

Leo Laporte Does that make it – just out of curiosity – does that make a difference if Gizmodo gets like, beats you by 30 seconds, does that – is it just pride or does it actually make any difference?

Joshua Topolsky I think a long time ago, it made a bigger difference. I think now it’s like, we know that everybody is going to do the hands-on. And readers look at a bunch of different sites. They’re not just reading Engadget. And that’s great, I look at a bunch of different sites too. So, I think it’s we’re still – mentally we still think, let’s get this thing up there as quickly as possible. But I don’t think the race is quite as intense as it used to be. Though I will say this. At the – there was an event that we did – oh, the iPad event. Nick Denton from Gawker bet me on Twitter $1,000 that Giz would get a hands-on faster than us. And we had ours up first, and Denton has yet to pay up. So….

Leo Laporte Well, what a surprise there!

Joshua Topolsky He can send me a check for $1,000 whenever he feels ready. I’ve asked him, but he hasn’t paid up. But that’s the last time I actually remember being – thinking like, we got to get this. Because somebody said [indiscernible] (13:07) they said Denton just challenged you to get photo – they said, Giz is going to photos before you.

Clayton Morris But doesn’t this speak, though, to the way in which we’re getting information? We’re all on such information overload. I mean – and your readers depend you guys. And they’re not going off to other sources on a regular basis. I don’t know …..

Leo Laporte I don’t know if that’s true. Is that true? I think it’s not – I think people are not so brand aware. I think they – do they even know now nowadays all of – this is Engadget, oh, this Gizmodo. They just – they go to the Web, they do a search and they end up where they end up. I have a feeling brand matters less.

Joshua Topolsky I think at certain segments, the hardcore, they have their allegiances or they prefer the way one site does coverage over another. But then you have a broader audience, that’s the SEO audience, right? The search audience.

Leo Laporte The ones you’re optimizing for, yeah.

Joshua Topolsky They are hitting – well, they are hitting Google and they want to see who has coverage of this stuff. And whatever comes up first or second or third, they’re going to go check out. I think that there is some delineation between the two, though. You’ve got people who are loyalists, right? I mean, you definitely have….

Leo Laporte It’s interesting. I’m looking at our chatroom. There are some people who do go to Engadget first and then there’s some people who just say I go wherever, it doesn’t really matter. I think there’s some animosity towards Gizmodo, because of the iPhone 4 adventure. There’s some people who actually disdain Gizmodo because of that.

Joshua Topolsky Giz doesn’t – no, they’re not at these events anymore. They haven’t been at the last few Apple events.

Clayton Morris They haven’t been invited. They haven’t been invited. And I heard that right from someone at Apple who told me.

Leo Laporte You know why I haven’t been invited.

Clayton Morris They are our common enemy.

Leo Laporte I want to check from Nick Denton, because I was actually – this is really hands-on.

Joshua Topolsky Here we go. Now you beat us.

Leo Laporte I beat you, absolutely. I beat everybody. But I’m not proud of that. That wasn’t my finest moment.

Joshua Topolsky But does it matter? That’s what I am – I guess what I’m saying for TWiT. You’re….

Leo Laporte We’re live. We’re live.

Joshua Topolsky It’s about analysis, right? And it’s about context. And that’s why I come to TWiT. I don’t come to TWiT because I think I’m going to see a first hands-on.

Leo Laporte No. In fact I don’t think we are in the – we’re obviously not in the ball park – but first of all, we get far fewer views than Engadget or even Gizmodo. We’re not in the same race as those guys. We’re not a blog.

Joshua Topolsky It’s totally different. I don’t think of – I mean I think of you guys as something – I mean I would never think, oh, man, does TWiT have this stuff? Not because you couldn’t get it or you’re not covering it.

Leo Laporte Oh, no, in fact I’m just pointing out. In two cases we beat you – but I don’t care. It’s not about a race.

Joshua Topolsky You beat us soundly and I feel ashamed.

Leo Laporte No! Anyway, I do want to apologize.

Cali Lewis There doesn’t seem to be any monetary value in it.

Leo Laporte Not for me.

Cali Lewis Their page views. But as we’re pointing out, people really look at multiple sources rather than just a single source. So…

Leo Laporte Cali, you are in this business too. You cover – I mean, GeekBeat really is a gadget show primarily, right? And so you cover this stuff too.

Cali Lewis I have the whole ego thing as well. I want to get – I want to be the first out with the news. It’s a lot harder for me, because I produce video rather than putting up a blog post with some pictures. I also have a whole blog, with a team of bloggers that do that. And so we are a little bit more into that.

But I think it’s interesting from a video podcaster’s perspective. We don’t get sourced when we are the first out to market with something, not out to market, but out with the news, when we do actually have something that no one else has covered. So that’s a whole other perspective. But I don’t think there’s actually any monetary value to it.

Leo Laporte I don’t know.

Joshua Topolsky I mean, monetary value in terms of – for a publisher, like….

Leo Laporte Revenue. Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky There’s obviously value in having it first. But I think that with us, we do these huge freaking Apple days, it’s a huge day for us because people want to see the liveblog.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky And then they expect this coverage to sort of roll out. They’re there anyway. And they’re looking for the rest of the coverage on this stuff.

Leo Laporte Right. Isn’t it interesting how Apple gets all this attention? Did you find, Joshua, when the Windows Phone 7 was launched that there was equal attention, an equal interest? No?

Joshua Topolsky No. That’s actually really crazy, to be honest with you. Google can have a big event, Microsoft has big events, Dell, Sony – anybody who’s gigantic do a – they do a big event and the numbers are – it’s staggering how different the numbers are on Microsoft event day versus an Apple event day. I mean, a significant difference in readership turnout. And I don’t fully understand it. I mean, it is like Apple has mesmerized the gadget community or the industry in some way that is – you can’t quantify it. It just – it’s actually kind of magical.

Leo Laporte Clay, you cover the mainstream, Clayton. So do you think that that’s reflected in the mainstream audience as well? That they care more about Apple than anything else?

Clayton Morris Oh, sure. When I post a story about Windows 7 or we post something on or we do it on my tech show, Gadgets and Games, I mean people say, oh, I don’t care about the – Josh, you were on a few weeks ago, when we were talking about the N8.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah.

Clayton Morris People – they’re not interested in it.

Leo Laporte The N8 is not that interesting, let’s face it.

Joshua Topolsky What you’re saying is actually the thing that is causing these huge spikes in traffic and this huge interest, it is that Apple touches the mainstream in a way that a lot of these other companies don’t. Microsoft, everybody knows Microsoft, but for some reasons they don’t connect with this large sort of casual audience the way Apple does. Apple has this ability to pull in my mother or somebody’s grandmother, saying, hey, I heard there’s going to be a Verizon iPhone or stuff that you would never expect to hear from people who aren’t interested in this industry, really. And I think that’s part of the – that’s part of where those numbers come from.

Clayton Morris And it’s also reflected in the messaging, right? it’s their advertising campaigns. It’s – Microsoft’s all over the place and I’m trying to understand what – I was watching that Microsoft ad, I think it ran last night during the Giants.

Leo Laporte They did during the game with the people staring at their phones and running into trees and stuff.

Joshua Topolsky They really have.

Clayton Morris And it’s something really struck me about.

Leo Laporte That’s a terrible ad!

Clayton Morris Yeah. Something really struck me about that. And I thought – you know what? They’re insulting all of us.

Leo Laporte Yes!

Clayton Morris Because how do you sell a phone by – you’re basically pointing out – and, Josh, you talk about this sometimes, the aspirational value of Sony, right? But Apple really paints that picture for people, that sort of aspirational value of things.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah.

Clayton Morris Whether it’s FaceTime, their FaceTime commercial – but even – so this Microsoft commercial, when everyone’s sort of falling asleep and crashing their car because they’re looking into their cellphone, we all do that. It’s a habit we have. So you’re basically making fun of someone because they have this bad act.

Cali Lewis Which I don’t mind, I don’t mind that, I mean I crash into poles. I mean I’ve got a big bump on my head from one time when I crashed into a pole because of it. So it’s funny.

Leo Laporte Microsoft’s message seems odd. It’s saying our phone is not as engaging as theirs, so you’ll be safer.

Joshua Topolsky No, I think what they’re trying to say – maybe they’re not doing a good job. I actually think those ads are pretty decent, but I think what they’re trying to say is, they’re trying to address an audience that doesn’t have a smartphone yet. And they see people. I actually feel that what they are doing is playing, they are playing their base really well where they are looking at the people who maybe haven’t adopted smartphones yet, they are looking at people with iPhones and BlackBerries and they are constantly doing that, you know I’m looking at my scrolling and my thing here. And I think the whole idea is to say --

Clayton Morris But I think their premise is off, Josh.

Joshua Topolsky What’s that?

Clayton Morris I think their premise is off because the value of the smartphone is that it is engaging. It’s almost – it’s a PC now and so –

Cali Lewis But there are a lot of people who just want to be able to do work when they need to but have – they place a lot more value on their family time or doing things just that they love to do. There are –

Joshua Topolsky Like people with families for instance.

Cali Lewis There are a huge number of people that are that way. We don’t see that from day-to-day because we’re total geeks. But they’re – I think they’re playing too good.

Leo Laporte Is this going to be a good strategy is Microsoft’s going to pour $400 into the ad campaign for Windows Phone 7?

Joshua Topolsky Well, this is not going to be the only –

Leo Laporte This is not the only ad.

Joshua Topolsky Path they go down.

Leo Laporte I understand.

Joshua Topolsky I think that they’re off to a decent start. I think those ads connect with people. I think a lot of people recognize that. I mean let’s be honest, we live in a – we are in an increasingly distracted society, right? And it is kind of obnoxious that we’re all looking at our devices. I go to parties, go out to I dinner with people and it’s like groups of people just staring at his phones like there’s nothing else going on around. I --

Leo Laporte Right. But is that the way to sell a smartphone, is --

Joshua Topolsky But I think what they’re saying is this is the smartphone that will let you – this is their message, I know that.

Leo Laporte It’s get in and get out, I understand.

Joshua Topolsky It will – that will do what you need to do and then get back to your real life.

Leo Laporte But is that what people want? Or do they Angry Birds?

Joshua Topolsky I think they want both.

Leo Laporte I think they want Angry Birds. I think they want a phone that engages them and yes, they don’t like it that people are walking into trees, we’d like not to do that but we don’t want a phone that is not engaging so it saves us from ourselves, we want a phone that engages them.

Clayton Morris They need to explain the narrative, right? It’s like politics and it’s why certain kids, it’s why we’re seeing Linda McMahon having trouble right up now in Connecticut with her messaging her ad campaign. She’s saying the same old thing and her poll numbers have plummeted. And now it looks like Richard Blumenthal is going to take that race. She’s been saying the same thing for two months, I was talking to a pollster about this. So what Apple does is that they sort of built a narrative. Microsoft is trying to build a narrative and if you think about building the narrative like the Jerry Seinfield-Bill Gates’ crap –

Joshua Topolsky Oh that is not a narrative. That was just nonsense.

Clayton Morris No, it was, it was. They were trying to --

Leo Laporte They never finished it, is the problem.

Clayton Morris And so Microsoft is trying to…

Joshua Topolsky Because it was so bad.

Leo Laporte Right.

Clayton Morris …Josh, to your point, Microsoft is trying to build this narrative, the story arc, they are laying the groundwork now that we’re all too engaged in our phones. What’s the next step? Do we then – do we finally then see the phone…

Joshua Topolsky I’ll tell you what the next step is. Right now, they’re selling the philosophy of Windows Phone 7 which is get in, get out, get back to life. That’s literally their tagline, right? They are saying that everywhere they can.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky So, the next step is going to be they are going to show how the product – this is actually just they do with – they have been doing this for Bing. I don’t know if you noticed that they had this ad campaign with Bing where they have the information, the search overload ads, right?

Leo Laporte Yeah, that also makes me – it looks like a bunch of crazy people.

Joshua Topolsky Those ads have been really – they’ve worked really well for them because --

Leo Laporte Have they?

Joshua Topolsky People identify with the idea that they go searching for something and they just get a bunch of crap that they don’t want. And so Bing saying, look, here’s your problem, here’s the philosophy.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky Your problem is, we’ve got search overload. Now they have new ads, I don’t know if you’ve seen them. But they show what Bing does, they show how it works, they show it has the little music player, it’s got this search window that looks like this, it does image search like that. So I think they are going to follow a very similar path with Windows Phone 7. They are going to say, look, you’ve – we’ve a problem. People are staring at their devices and they’re not paying attention to their real life and these devices are complicated and annoying --

Leo Laporte These are the people who are – these are the crazy people --

Clayton Morris But I don’t buy that, though. I don’t believe. Josh, do you buy that the iPhone 4 or that iOS is complicated?

Joshua Topolsky No, I don’t. But then again, I’m not – I don’t have --

Leo Laporte You are not – you are not the target for these ads.

Joshua Topolsky I am not. Look, smart chip – smartphone ownership is like 19% in America, okay? That means there is a huge market that they’ve never touched a smartphone, never played with one, don’t know if they want one, they’re thinking about getting it but – so the market is not the 19% that has the iPhone and the --

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky The Nokia or whatever else they’ve got. I don’t think they have a Nokia but they’ve got some Android phones --

Leo Laporte It’s BlackBerry, iPhone and Android although if you listen to Steve Jobs’ talk obviously the only thing that worries him at all is Android because that’s all he’s ever talking about.

Joshua Topolsky Oh, Android is not a problem, it doesn’t even matter –

Leo Laporte It’s all fragmented, it’s uh, uh, uh.

Joshua Topolsky But the market for Microsoft is and Steve Ballmer has said this a lot is the – it’s the people who haven’t bought the smartphone yet; it’s the market that doesn’t exist yet.

Leo Laporte You know, it’s a big bet. They are spending a lot of money, they are laying a lot of money and it’d be very interested to see how well it does for them. I mean we don’t know but I agree with you. That’s obviously what they’re saying as well. We kind of – basically, what they’re saying is we have lost that – those group, that group to Apple and Android.

Joshua Topolsky The first way.

Leo Laporte The first way. So we are going to go after the second way. I think there’s a big question of whether that sec – you look at, it’s like selling – it’s like selling a pork – a Philly cheese steak to a vegetarian. I mean maybe those people don’t want a smartphone. Maybe the reason those people don’t have it is because they don’t need it.

Joshua Topolsky No, no they want a smartphone --

Clayton Morris Or they don’t know they want it.

Cali Lewis They know. They know --

Clayton Morris Once they taste that Philly cheese steak --

Joshua Topolsky But, Leo, I think that actually – that actually is a really interesting point. I think that they do want it but I think that there is a feeling – a lot of people have a feeling of what’s the word I’m looking for, they are kind of annoyed by people who own iPhones and BlackBerrys, they think they are poncy –

Leo Laporte Everybody is annoyed by Apple folks.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah but I think right and I think those people are like, I want a phone that is about –

Leo Laporte Except Apple folks.

Joshua Topolsky Me, it isn’t for these New York jerks who are driving their BMWs.

Leo Laporte Right. You could say it Joshua. They’re Jews. It’s the phone for Jews, that’s what you’re saying?

Joshua Topolsky Jews in New York? That’s --

Leo Laporte Yeah, New York --

Clayton Morris I don’t know, I don’t think, Cali –

Leo Laporte By the way I apologize to the Jewish people who are listening to the show. That was not intended as a slur in anyway – I’m going to be – I’m so, so, sorry.

Joshua Topolsky Looks like hurtful to me, Leo.

Leo Laporte Go ahead.

Joshua Topolsky Thank you for going down that horrible road.

Leo Laporte NPR is going to fire me as a commentator now. My career is shot.

Clayton Morris No, the only way they do that is if you put on one of your communist hats.

Leo Laporte Well, I would never do that. Where is that hat?

Joshua Topolsky Here we go. Here we go.

Leo Laporte This is going to get me a job on Fox as a commentator, isn’t it? I think it is.

Clayton Morris Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Topolsky That’s how – Clayton, this is how you got your job, right?

Clayton Morris Right. I was in a full outfit. I was in a – I just had one of the dear leader outfits so you can pick up. The Halloween emporium –

Joshua Topolsky Isn’t this the opposite of the, how you get hired at Fox. Don’t you need to put on like a tea – a tea hat or a something --

Leo Laporte There is no tea hat. What are you talking about?

Joshua Topolsky A teapot hat or something.

Leo Laporte Tea hat. Tea hat, what are you talking – they don’t wear hats. That’s poncy.

Clayton Morris They are bald.

Leo Laporte Alright. Moving along, Steve Jobs gets on the – as long as we are in the Air, first of all, how do you like the Air? You are the guy with hands-on, you like that Joshua is a nice piece of meat. Is it nice? Do you like it?

Joshua Topolsky Are you – are you willing to accept my hands on?

Leo Laporte I will touch your hands and love them.

Clayton Morris You’re groping.

Joshua Topolsky The Airs? They’re really nice pieces of hardware. I mean the 11.6 inch. You know I should have – I have it here somewhere but it’s not in this room. They are really sexy as far as hardware goes, the external hardware. Internally, they are not powerhouse.

Leo Laporte They are low and slow but people are saying with its SSDs, they are running pretty fast. They feel snappy.

Joshua Topolsky They are fast but I got to tell you going from a MacBook Pro like a pretty fast MacBook Pro to the Air, there’s a noticeable difference in terms of graphics and scrolling something that’s

Leo Laporte Let’s have an unboxing. This is a hands-on.

Clayton Morris Yeah, actually it’s downstairs

Joshua Topolsky First unboxing.

Clayton Morris I was using it all day but here’s the box but --

Leo Laporte Now is that the big one or the little one?

Clayton Morris I got the 11-inch. I am a huge fan of it. I mean I got it --

Leo Laporte I bought the little one. I bought the cheapest little one that they had.

Clayton Morris Yeah, the 11.6-inch and it’s beautiful. I mean, look, again I’m using –

Leo Laporte It’s a nice box.

Clayton Morris I’m talking to you right now. Here’s the box. It’s downstairs, she was using it earlier.

Joshua Topolsky It’s okay. It’s okay.

Clayton Morris She’s got to write her show tomorrow, so she’s using it right now. But I’m using the 15-inch MacBook Pro and just – look, I’m just all about heft these days. I just don’t want to have to carry the six or seven pound…

Leo Laporte I agree.

Clayton Morris How much is it? Six pounds, seven pounds, the MacBook Pro?

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, something, six – I think it’s like six, something like that.

Clayton Morris And quite honestly, I could be doing this right now with an HD webcam and an external microphone plugged into the MacBook Air and be fine doing that and that’s about – unless you are doing heavy video editing and unless you are doing lot of heavy audio editing, you are not going to be using that. It’s not a pro machine and you are not going to be using it for that purpose. I mean it’s a great –

Leo Laporte Cali, did you get one – have you got one, yet?

Cali Lewis No, I haven’t gotten one because I’ve been –

Leo Laporte You’re out of town.

Cali Lewis Going to the store to get one because I’ve been traveling here to Atlanta. But, at first, my initial – I don’t know, I have something against the Air just from the beginnings of it but I think I’m – once I actually get my hands on it and I think I’ll kind of turn around, I love that it’s solid states. So I think the specs are looking really good. And yeah I would like to have --

Clayton Morris Oh, it’s the first ones – the original ones, Cali, you’re right were – you couldn’t recommend them overpowered, under – I mean underpowered, overpriced, it didn’t make any sense. It was the only laptop in their lineup that just didn’t – you would say, why would you get an Air? I would see people with Airs and I would say, why you have that?

Joshua Topolsky Right.

Cali Lewis Yeah, exactly.

Joshua Topolsky No, and they were actually kind of poorly made. Paul Miller, one of our editors, had one. The hinge broke, the logic board died. Now it wouldn’t boot properly. I mean they are actually –

Leo Laporte They had a lot of problems with them, didn’t they? Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, they – I think they were experimenting with a bunch of new ideas about how to build stuffs and those ended up being – their kind of this weird, sort of black sheep in the family and the --

Leo Laporte They are essentially – this one is essentially a netbook that costs twice as much though, right?

Joshua Topolsky Oh, it’s more powerful than a lot of the netbooks that are out there.

Leo Laporte Is it? Okay.

Clayton Morris And it’s much sturdier too. A lot of the netbooks are crappy plastic –

Leo Laporte They all feel cheesy. Yeah, they all feel cheesy.

Clayton Morris And the netbooks don’t have this.

Leo Laporte That is kind of neat. He’s showing a USB key and this is where they put the software, the operating systems so forth.

Joshua Topolsky The recovery, yeah. I mean look, let’s be honest. The day of the optical drive is really coming to an end and I do believe that. I think that pretty soon we’re going to – most people are going to have fast enough connections to be able to get software online and not be installing stuff on disks. So I think that’s a smart move. The thing about the Air is they are very expensive given how powerful they are. I mean the little one for $1,000, it’s a good price for an – you think oh that’s pretty cheap Apple computer but --

Leo Laporte It also feels like it fits into the product line. You got the iPhone, then you got the iPad. Then it seems like a logical next step to go to the Air, and then the 13-inch. It just feels like that’s a kind of almost a linear --

Joshua Topolsky Yeah. But now what about the MacBook, $999.00, same price.

Leo Laporte That’s got to be dead, right?

Joshua Topolsky No. I mean, that’s an actual regular laptop.

Leo Laporte No. You know, who buys a lot of those? Schools. It’s the students.

Clayton Harris Students. Sure.

Leo Laporte Because, it’s much more robust than the metal ones. You could throw it around. So that’s education.

Joshua Topolsky It’s also more powerful and it has an optical drive, and it’s a regular computer. Make no mistake about it, the Air – at least the little air is doesn’t really seem like, you wouldn’t think like I’m going to get rid of my full-size MacBook and I’m going to use this as my main thing. I mean, if you just do email, some web browsing, watching videos on YouTube, you’ll probably be fine with it. It is very much Apple’s netbook but, I mean, it’s a much higher-end device than a netbook in terms of built quality and --

Clayton Harris And Josh, don’t forget the sex appeal of it. I mean, I’m telling you what, every woman in the office that I pulled it out and showed it to said that’s hot.

Leo Laporte Oh, dear.

Clayton Harris They said that’s hot.

Leo Laporte They said they liked your 11-inch.

Joshua Topolsky It is a really sexy device. I mean, I – it’s sort of horrible to describe products as sexy, but it’s kind of like sex.

Clayton Morris But it is sexy, that’s what sells.

Leo Laporte Well, it is easy to… it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful.

Joshua Topolsky Well, I don’t know it is just a weird way to describe.

Clayton Harris Didn’t the Vivienne Tam edition for HP do bonkers sales? I mean --

Leo Laporte That wasn’t sexy though.

Joshua Topolsky It was sexy.

Cali Lewis Yeah, that did pretty well. I have one of those. I mean, it’s pretty and nice and everything but six months, maybe a year down the road, it doesn’t work anymore.

Leo Laporte Right.

Leo Laporte The Vivienne Tam was the nice girl, no the good girl, and the MacBook here is the nice girl, or is it the other – I never can remember.

Joshua Topolsky I think it’s – Vivienne Tam was the slightly less expensive girl and --

Leo Laporte Right.

Clayton Harris Apple is the pricey girl.

Leo Laporte Cali, I just want to apologize. How many people have I offended now so far? I think the Koreans --

Cali Lewis Girls.

Joshua Topolsky The Jews, girls, women.

Leo Laporte The Jews, girls

Joshua Topolsky Philly fans.

Clayton Morris Philly fans.

Leo Laporte Phillies fans. Is there anybody left?

Clayton Harris Tea Party members.

Leo Laporte Tea Party members.

Joshua Topolsky I think I offended Tea Party members.

Clayton Harris You covered all your bases.

Cali Lewis I just wonder, you know, with the whole USB thing, the software on the USB stick, I wonder if that’s going to kind of generate a whole new education need for how to go about dealing with software because people who are used to the whole CD thing, are they going to get all confused and is this going to create a big issue or is it going to be fairly natural for them and I’m not really --

Joshua Topolsky No, now you have the App Store. Now you have a MacApp store.

Leo Laporte Think about it. Well, I am going to get to that subject because I think that’s actually the hottest topic of the week but we’ll talk about this later. But think about it, I am going to ask each of you, when is the last time you used the DVD or CD player or burner in your laptop? Clayton, when is the last time you used it?

Clayton Morris I used one time I went to my mom’s house and she had some random Neil Diamond CD. I was like oh this is too good to pass up. And I grabbed it and I burned a Neil Diamond collection.

Leo Laporte You used it to rip Neil.

Clayton Morris Yeah, that’s one time. I never once put a DVD in this and it’s got a great DVD burner.

Leo Laporte I think that’s fairly common. Joshua, do you use the CD player on your laptop? No?

Joshua Topolsky I had to install Photoshop or something and I used the DVD drive --

Leo Laporte There you go, installation.

Joshua Topolsky Because there’s no way to do it.

Leo Laporte Installation.

Joshua Topolsky

No, I mean, what am I doing? I am ripping Nirvana CDs, that’s not happening.

Leo Laporte How about you, Cali? You used the CD or DVD drive on your laptop?

Cali Lewis Three times a year for installation or ripping.

Leo Laporte Yeah. I think that’s like the floppy. You can actually get rid of it now.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, for the most part. I mean, look, most of my programs I have on my computer, I mean, 99% of the programs I have on my computer, I installed --

Leo Laporte Downloaded them.

Joshua Topolsky Download, yeah, I downloaded them, which is why should we segue?

Leo Laporte We’re going to segue but we are going to take break. We were going to segue because I think this says more about Apple than anything that they announced this week, even Steve Jobs’ ridiculous phone call which, I guess, we could play a recording of. Apple announces an App store, and by the way, so does Mozilla and we even saw Microsoft with that leaked slight stack on Windows 8, say we want to do an app store. App stores are coming because of the success of the iPhone. We’ll talk about that in a second. Before we do though I want to mention our friends at Citrix, in fact hosts if you like to take a little break, we got Clayton Morris with us. This’d be a good time you can get out of that giant’s outfit. It must be driving you crazy.

Joshua Topolsky You can keep a bird’s nest in this thing.

Clayton Morris It’s a hot hat.

Leo Laporte It’s a Fifty Cent hat. Joshua Topolsky from Endgaget, Cali Lewis from, it’s great to have all three of you. Take a break. We’re going to talk a little bit about Citrix, the folks would do all those great remote access products, you know, in fact when it comes to enterprise, Citrix is the remote access solution for Windows. They also have great consumer products. We’ve talked about all of them. GoToMyPC is the one I’d like to tell you about right now is the best way to do a remote access to any Mac or Windows PC.

It’s as secure as online banking. It uses 128-bit SSL. So you can even be at a Starbucks or the McDonald’s, the open access point using it and nobody’s snooping on you, you can do anything you want. In fact, you can use it as a VPN because if you want to search safely at an open access point, all you do is you fire up your computer, go to, enter in your secure credentials, now you’ve gone to your office computer, you surf from there and you’re completely secure.

I think it’s a really great solution. Here’s the deal. You can install it right now and try it free for 30 days. Go to 30 days unlimited use for free. And now anywhere you go, as you travel the world, an internet café, a home, in the garden, wherever you are, you can log on and go to and use that office computer. You can send and receive email, run any program, access any network resource. It’s all there, just as if you were there, full screen. Very easy to set up, PC World just gave it their world-class award for best remote access software. Try it free 30 days. We thank them for their support for This week in Tech, some nice people there at the Citrix’s place. So Clayton --

Joshua Topolsky I signed up for it during the spot actually.

Leo Laporte Isn’t that great? You see how – you see it’s just. Well, now Clayton, you can’t have a Phillies hat and a – take off the Giants, go ahead take it off. Take off the Giants T-shirt.

Clayton Morris Oh, I am sorry. I just put this on because I didn’t want people to see me.

Leo Laporte The invisible Philly.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah.

Leo Laporte No, you’re a good sport, Clayton. And you know – oh you went down and got the Air. You stole that from Natalie. That was nice of you.

Clayton Morris Yeah. I did, in case we --

Leo Laporte Or is it Myles’ computer?

Cali Lewis No, that was nice of Natalie to allow him.

Leo Laporte Yeah, maybe, yeah.

Clayton Morris No, it’s mine.

Joshua Topolsky That was horrible.

Clayton Morris Anyway, sorry.

Leo Laporte No, show us more, I want to see more. This is nice.

Clayton Morris You know what, this is great. We showed this on my show on Friday. We got a little stopwatch out.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Clayton Morris And let’s just do a straight --

Leo Laporte Boot time.

Clayton Morris Yeah, let’s --

Leo Laporte You know, I put a Corsair SSD into my 15-inch MacBook from a year ago and it does make a huge difference in boot time.

Joshua Topolsky Yes, I was going to say about this. People are making a big deal about the boot time, but if you put an SSD in any MacBook --

Leo Laporte Sure

Joshua Topolsky

-- ordinary MacBook, it will boot very, very quickly. My new SSD --

Clayton Morris Even in the new iMacs. Those new iMacs with the SSD where Snow Leopard boots off the SSD are fantastic.

Leo Laporte Joshua, would you know whose drive Apple is using in here?

Joshua Topolsky Well, this actually isn’t a drive. They’re hardwiring --

Clayton Morris Oh yeah, surface mounting, yeah.

Joshua Topolsky NAND flash to the logic board.

Leo Laporte So who’s controller, I guess, is what I should ask?

Joshua Topolsky I don’t know. I think we should have a tear down. They certainly have that information.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky I should of course --

Leo Laporte Our solid state guy, Allyn Malventano, I think said that it’s using a SandForce, a controller, which is as good as you can get.

Joshua Topolsky So get your stopwatches out. We did 14 seconds on this which is --

Leo Laporte Okay, ready?

Clayton Morris Yeah, ready and --

Leo Laporte set, go.

Clayton Morris Go.

Leo Laporte Oh, there’s blue. It’s blue. There is the Apple. Now, of course it only has 2 gigs of RAM, so it’s not doing a very big long power on self test. 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 – 15 seconds to desktop.

Joshua Topolsky This is – I just want to say that this is a fast but pretty common for SSDs.

Leo Laporte Yeah. I will tell you what --

Joshua Topolsky Actually This is not the instant on they’re talking about. I don’t know, there hasn’t been distinction made about this. When they say instant on, what they’re talking about is so --

Leo Laporte From sleep.

Joshua Topolsky But when you close a normal MacBook, it goes to sleep, right.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky It’s in a low power mode but it’s not in some kind of crazy hibernation. So these new devices, when you close them after an hour of being close, they go into a some kind of deep sleep, like a hibernation. Now when you open them, they start right back up from that. That’s what Apple is calling instant on because you can sleep them for 30 days or so.

Clayton Morris Right.

Leo Laporte They say – they’re saying instant on with the iPad, too. And if you turn it off, it is not instant on.

Clayton Morris What they really mean is resume, instant resume.

Leo Laporte Instant resume. And Apple’s always been better at that than Windows machine. Windows machines usually take a little bit to get going again. But I found always that even laptops – all OS X start up pretty quickly.

Joshua Topolsky The Windows boots are pretty still fairly painful to me.

Leo Laporte Yeah, yeah.

Clayton Harris Oh, yeah, even Windows 7 machines where you can go literally and have breakfast and come back.

Leo Laporte I have to say, though, this is Steve Jobs’ relationship with the truth is a little bit fuzzy.

Joshua Topolsky And non-existent.

Clayton Morris I wish you had a phone call that would capture the essence of fuzzy.

Leo Laporte You know, just a little bit --

Clayton Morris If only you did.

Leo Laporte He sounds – by the way, on this phone call, he sounds like --

Joshua Topolsky Best earnings call ever. Can I just say that? Best earnings call in the history of --

Leo Laporte I wish I’d been on this call. He sounds like a little old man or something.

Joshua Topolsky We were freaking out when we heard this. It was so –

Leo Laporte Were you on the call?

Joshua Topolsky Yeah we were on the call and it was just like what is going on, this whole thing is totally off the rails and amazing. Whenever Steve Jobs is being – just talking intimately about how he feels it is magic.

Leo Laporte Well now he’s leading, it’s apparent – if you listen to him, it’s apparent he is leading.

[Audio clip]

Leo Laporte Wait for it, wait for it, here comes the best part. What, is that the first thing you think about when you think of open – Windows, windows like opening the window, what?

Joshua Topolsky I think what he means is – obviously he is – the first thing that everybody thinks about is like Linux or open source.

Leo Laporte Yeah, oh yeah the first thing I think of is Windows, open Windows.

Joshua Topolsky But I mean, most people, most people the heat of this is going to trickle into you know the Wall Street Journal…

Leo Laporte He is not using open in the way that I am using open.

Joshua Topolsky He mean like you could develop whatever you want for Windows, you can put whatever kind of software you want.

Leo Laporte What’s the most closed device in the market today? The iPhone and iPad.

Cali Lewis That’s not necessarily a bad, I mean we have to admit that it’s not necessarily a bad thing, there are good things about both of –

Leo Laporte No, I’m not saying it’s bad, but Steve Jobs is saying we are the open choice like Windows. I mean he is very confusing to me.

Joshua Topolsky Well, here’s what he is saying is…

Cali Lewis And he is using a different definition.

Leo Laporte Of the truth.

[Multiple speakers]

Clayton Morris I mean there is this weird definition of open and there are certainly some great posts this week about what it means to be open. Whether or not Android is open. I think even Leo and you’ve been asked that on TWiG this week.

Leo Laporte We did a TWiG, in fact we did this conversation on TWiG into great detail. I won’t play all of his call, I just thought that was a funny.

[Audio clip]

Joshua Topolsky But there is also, I mean, you know in the computer industry, we are – the gadget industry we all think, I mean there does seem to be this feeling like open is better. The more open the better it is and that’s true in a lot of cases. But it’s not true in every case, I mean more open…

Leo Laporte No I understand but that’s not the argument Steve Jobs is making, he is saying…

Joshua Topolsky Steve Job is just saying…

Leo Laporte Android is closed.

Joshua Topolsky What he is really saying is it’s a smoke screen, it’s not really open they are lying to their customers, and they’re actually closed, and it’s no different than what anybody else is doing. You could see he wants to diminish their selling point.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky Right.

Leo Laporte Yeah, he is obviously scared to death of Android.

Joshua Topolsky Well he should be I mean they are becoming the Windows of smartphones. I mean if you don’t see a parallel between…

Leo Laporte Wait a minute, but Windows is open.

Joshua Topolsky No, no but look. You know that’s the thing, with Windows you could pay a license fee and put it on whatever you want it and you could make any manipulations you wanted...

Leo Laporte Well, that’s what’s funny about this because Android is much closer to Windows, frankly.

Joshua Topolsky I think that’s his fear, is that they are going to do what Windows did, which is they started later right.

Leo Laporte He doesn’t need to fear anything, he is making – they sold 14.1 million iPhones in three months.

Joshua Topolsky I don’t think.

Leo Laporte He’s making billions, he made 4 billion in profits this…

Clayton Morris Should he have said Linux?

Leo Laporte Should he have said nothing, he should’ve just shut up, because he is not what…

Joshua Topolsky What if he’s said the…

Cali Lewis You know I get this big feeling lately that obviously he is not going to be around much longer, he can’t stick around forever, right, so he….

Joshua Topolsky He’s not that old.

Cali Lewis …is trying to make moves, no he is not that old. He said, he is getting better all of that but he will have to move on at some point and people will have to take over his position and I just get the feeling over and over again that he is trying to put, put himself and Apple in general in a position of authority. Obviously they already are but I keep getting this impression that he is just trying to say that loud and clear, that they are the best, that they are you know in a position of authority and doing it right and everybody else is doing it wrong before he walks out the door.

Leo Laporte Yeah that’s interesting.

Cali Lewis And maybe I’m crazy but…

Leo Laporte No, that’s interesting.

Joshua Topolsky I think Steve Jobs has a history of letting people know that they have the right idea and everybody else has the wrong idea. I mean if you go back to the great interview with him where he talks about how Microsoft has such a bad taste.

Leo Laporte But he believes that I mean it’s not – when he says that he’s believes that firmly.

Joshua Topolsky He really believes everything he is saying. I don’t think Steve Jobs is faking.

Leo Laporte No, I disagree.

Joshua Topolsky I think Steve Jobs, I think Steve Jobs is manipulating.

Leo Laporte I think there’s two Steve Jobs, yeah.

Joshua Topolsky I think he is manipulating with the way he – the way he describes certain things. But I do believe that he says what he means.

[Multiple speakers]

Clayton Morris … earnings call.

Leo Laporte Remember, remember he said…

Clayton Morris That’s what weird for me.

Leo Laporte He said for instance, nobody is ever going to want to watch video on a small device. He said for instance nobody is ever going to want to ever read a book on a portable device. He says things that he knows are untrue all the time.

Joshua Topolsky You know that’s true he actually does that weird thing where he says the very opposite and then immediately does the thing what he says…

Leo Laporte No one will ever want a 7-inch tablet, he said.

Clayton Morris And he also lied to [indiscernible] (44:57) this week when he said that you don’t need a bag for your MacBook Air, he knows that you do.

Joshua Topolsky No I think that one, that one…

Leo Laporte So, here is my opinion, here is my opinion on Steve. I love Steve, he is a brilliant guy, there are two Steves. There is a Steve who is brilliant businessman and marketer, who will say what he needs to say to forward Apple as a business. There is also a Steve, and I think this is the fundamental Steve who believes in products, who believes in making great stuff. And I think you can listen to every single thing Steve says with both minds, and it’s instructive to listen with both minds. So when he says 7-inch tablet is wrong, if you listen with a marketer’s mind you know what he is really saying is, don’t buy that 7-inch tablet because wait till 2011. And if you listen with the product mind I think he genuinely says no that’s the wrong form factor, wrong size, it doesn’t feel right to me. And I think both of those are instructive.

Joshua Topolsky His language is pretty strong.

Clayton Morris Yeah, because the proof is in the pudding. I mean the proof is what sales, you know what ends up getting sold and my mom, or you know my dad; she is not listening to an Apple earnings calls and listening to the nuance of Steve Jobs voice, she is going to go to an Apple store and she is going to put her hands on the new MacBook Air and say well, I’m looking for a new laptop and if at the end of the day if she buys it, that’s where, that’s why…

Leo Laporte So who was the audience for this?

Joshua Topolsky It was analysts and journalists.

Leo Laporte But I mean why did he do that? What was the …

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (46:16) trickle down, I mean, this will get out there. Look, all these stuff trickles down; and what Steve Jobs says on an earnings call ends up in The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal; and regular people read that stuff, so.

Leo Laporte And he is super smart, so he probably knew that only a tag line would be remembered. So what are the three sentences that are going to get reported in the popular press from this call, what is the import of this call? Don’t buy a 7-inch tablet, Android has – Android is not what it appears to be, in fact it kind of underscores, there is fear in the world that Google might be a little bit shady.

Joshua Topolsky Well, what about the part where he went crazy about, he just totally [indiscernible] (46:56) RIM for the first part of that, he just got on to say about, how RIM is suffering, and they’re going to have a really hard time getting their act together. It was just like weird for two or three minutes.

Leo Laporte That was good too.

Joshua Topolsky He started about how bad he hates RIM and how stupid they…

Leo Laporte You beat him, Steve. That’s good, that’s just hitting a guy when they’re down.

Joshua Topolsky He hasn’t beaten them [indiscernible] (47:14).

Leo Laporte You don’t think so?

Joshua Topolsky Well, they still have a huge market share. People are very loyal to their BlackBerrys.

Leo Laporte First time though this quarter, the first time ever that Apple outsold BlackBerry.

Cali Lewis Do we have any numbers, do we have any numbers on businesses that are using iPhone instead of BlackBerrys at this point?

Leo Laporte That’s a good question.

Clayton Morris There has been a, well I mean I know I can speak to some of the big, you know large businesses that are in our building, there has been a freeze put on iPhone purchases. I mean there’s been, I don’t know what, I don’t what that speaks to, I don’t….

Leo Laporte Security?

Clayton Morris … security, I’m not sure. And I certainly haven’t spoken to the appropriate people there to find out. But I’ve heard this from a couple of different people at some different big companies within our same building and I don’t’ know if there is some backlash against that, they’re waiting, maybe they are waiting to have broader BlackBerry integration again. And I don’t know if the Torch was enough for them to say, alright we’re coming back to the table for Torch. A lot of them are on AT&T, so I’m not really sure but I don’t know that it’s a – I don’t think it was a runway iPhone enterprise extravaganza.

Joshua Topolsky There has been some adoption but look, enterprise and IT guys, they don’t change quickly.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky There is a lot of problem with the iPhone for enterprise. I mean, they’ve gone to great lengths to fix those problems but you’re not going to see big companies saying you know what, through the BlackBerrys out, let’s get everybody an iPhone. It’s not good business for them at this point I think to do that.

Leo Laporte I’ll tell you what’s changed, I think Microsoft is looking at this, and I know Apple is, is that in corporate it used to be that the IT department chose your phone for you. And I think increasingly we are seeing people bring their phones into the corporate and say integrate my phone.

Clayton Morris Yeah.

Leo Laporte So that’s the change and I think both Apple and Microsoft both are aiming not at business anymore but at individuals who they hope will bring those devices into the enterprise.

Joshua Topolsky Well now you can do that, I mean a few years ago nobody had a smartphone right for their regular phone, everybody would have a Razr or some dumb phone, and so you’d go to work and everybody had a BlackBerry because their job gave them a BlackBerry they had to use. And now it’s the opposite, you have a really advanced phone that you buy just to use for your phone. So the opportunity is there to bring it in and say hey, let’s use this instead of that terrible Curve you’re trying to give me.

Clayton Morris Yeah, that’s exactly when I got a Curve and we had a number of executives who said well, I want an iPhone and they actually had them get an iPhone. And now they are all walking around with iPhones and then suddenly you saw this movement, this ground swell where it seemed like the IT department was going to start handing out iPhones to everyone. They handed them out to reporters, so they could do live streaming and stuff like that. But you know, it wasn’t as massive adoption, now there has been a bit of freeze on it. So, but you had all these executives walking around with iPhones and everyone else was being handed BlackBerry Curve.

Joshua Topolsky You could hear the disappointment in Clayton’s voice there by the way.

Leo Laporte Guess who got it?

Clayton Morris No.

Leo Laporte Guess who did not get an iPhone?

Joshua Topolsky Yes, you got a Curve.

Clayton Morris No, I had to buy my own Curve – I had to buy my own iPhone.

Leo Laporte So, but I think that it is interesting that Microsoft which normally would be aiming at the IT department with, certainly did with Windows Mobile for years is now aiming obviously at end users.

Joshua Topolsky They’ve aimed away from enterprise. I mean this is a distinctly not, non-enterprise play to them, for Windows Phone 7.

Leo Laporte Let’s talk about the App Store because I think this is – of all the things Apple announced and I think the Air is a great product, I of course ordered one immediately, I think iLife, there is lots, they went on and on with the iLife, they could have really cut that short. Was that your experience Joshua sitting in there?

Joshua Topolsky Yes, painful, I mean just painful, was in the Phil Schiller to talk about iPhoto, I mean all due respect to Phil Schiller, I am sure there is some great features in iPhoto and I am sure he took some wonderful family vacations that he wanted to show us his fake pictures up, but it is truly, truly a test of one’s will power to live blog a description of how to use the iPhoto faces function.

Clayton Morris Why are you a photo book hater Joshua, that smells like photo book hater.

Joshua Topolsky I’m not a hater, it’s just that, come on they’ve spent like…

Leo Laporte He doesn’t have a baby.

Clayton Morris And it’s running through the island.

Joshua Topolsky No, you know, it’s funny, my wife Laura who also writes for the site was saying when we have a baby this is going to be awesome.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Joshua Topolsky But right now…

Clayton Morris All the trailers, trailers was a good feature, I mean, I think you know…

Leo Laporte Yes, but they went on, oh God, that trailer took him ten minutes to make a trailer, it’s like that’s not the point, right, you want to show this fast, it’s going to win me…

Joshua Topolsky Yes.

Clayton Morris It was fast for making a trip.

Cali Lewis Let’s look back at history that any software he knows that they do are like that…

Leo Laporte I guess.

Cali Lewis We were just hoping for the Air so it was – were annoying.

Leo Laporte Okay. I get it.

Clayton Morris I wanted to see more of Lion though, to be honest with you, I wanted to see more of Lion, remember we saw the update to Snow Leopard, we saw a long demo of Snow Leopard, we didn’t see anything hardly anything of Lion.

Joshua Topolsky I don’t think they have that much to show but I think after, Cali to what you were saying, I think after years and years of iPhoto demos with very small changes I think really incremental, I think you have the iPhoto ‘8, ‘9, and ‘10, that ‘11 demo could have been you know five minutes…

Leo Laporte You know we kind of got it.

Joshua Topolsky It was really awesome, you are going to love it, let’s move on with our lives.

Leo Laporte We kind of got it. Yes. So, iLife, you are right, they didn’t mention much of the Tiger although they mentioned I think the most important thing which is this new mission control which takes Exposé and space, I don’t know, to be bundled, but really the whole thing here is – and you start to see this with iLife full screen a la the iPad…

Clayton Morris Right.

Leo Laporte And an App Store, a la the iPhone and iPad, and I thought that was a big tidal shift in how Apple thinks about its desktops.

Clayton Morris It’s cleaning up the desktop, it’s getting rid off the clutter, and I’m finding we were talking about information overload and they are sort of the pre-show about things and I have to say having an App that runs full screen you are singularly focused on that one App whether it’s iPhoto, you don’t have tweet deck running on the side while you are doing other things, you can focus on making that photo book of your kid, you can do this one thing, and then you can close the – you can close your laptop and you can go do other things but it’s full screen, it’s beautiful and it – I’m excited about that because I’ve got multiple windows, I’m constantly switching and I can’t get anything done half the time because I end up having all of these windows open.

Cali Lewis Don’t you think you are actually going to do the same thing? You are just going to escape out of the full screen mode, won’t you, I mean…

Leo Laporte If you can.

Cali Lewis You know that it is there.

Leo Laporte If you can.

Joshua Topolsky Yes.

Leo Laporte Joshua…

Clayton Morris I’m waiting to see what happens with the iPad because as soon as I get, you know, it’s – I love the iPad for reading and I’m worried now with multi-tasking am I going to be hitting that button all the time double tapping that home button…

Leo Laporte Right.

Clayton Morris I am going to have multiple things running constantly.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s what full screen does, right, is it makes you – becomes very – this is kind of what Apple originally inveighed against in their user-interface guidelines was modality. You don’t want to be modal, you, and you don’t want anything to take over the system, this is a significant change in how they think about operating systems. Joshua you said you disagree with Clayton’s assessment.

Joshua Topolsky I think the idea of a full screen application is one of the most obnoxious things in the world. Like the idea that I would want my laptop to have just one task happening, you know, maybe if am doing some intense photo editing, okay, I just want to focus on that but to me one of the greatest things about a desktop or laptop computer and one of the things that is still lacking on an iPhone or particularly on the iPhone and the iPad is there is no glanceable information, there are no notifications, there are no – there’s none of this extra information that I need to have like Twitter for instance, it’s important for me to have a Twitter window open and somewhat visible to me all the time because people ask me questions and say stuff to me on Twitter constantly throughout the day and I want to be able to respond to these people right then and there; Twitter keeps moving, you know it’s not a static thing. So same with IM clients and I think that the idea of having this single application experience is really not satisfying to me in any meaningful way and it’s somewhat disappointing to see Apple pushing the paradigm of the iPad into their desk top space because – or laptop space because I think it’s actually – it’s a bad move, I think it goes in the wrong direction for the computer…

Clayton Morris Because I agree with you, because I have that many windows up on mine too but I come back to the general consumer again, for the general consumer is it a bad thing? It’s bad for Josh maybe and it is bad Clayton, and maybe it’s bad for Cali and Leo.

Joshua Topolsky Right, well, you know it’s funny, is that this actually goes back to what Microsoft is doing with the Windows Phone 7 as we were talking about. I mean they are saying the same thing, right, don’t uni-task, don’t have all these confusing stuff, just get in get out and get on with your life, this is the same idea, let’s simplify, let’s make it – you got a single task, get that task done, and you know, get on to whatever, get on to taking more pictures of your kids.

Leo Laporte Cali?

Joshua Topolsky I have killed the conversation, have I?

Leo Laporte No, no, no, we are waiting, we are thinking, we are pondering.

Cali Lewis I agree with Joshua, you know, it’s I certainly don’t want to live my life that way, I have things that I need, I need those notifications, I need to know when I’m getting an e-mail that I’ve expected for hours on end, I need that in order to work efficiently. Now you can take the other side of that, maybe I would actually work a little bit more efficiently if I’m focusing on one task, but there is so much that we do that is back and forth between apps, ,so do I want full screen mode, you know I think we just need clarification…

Joshua Topolsky It’s not realistic to me.

Leo Laporte I guess I’m okay if I have the choice, and I think you are all okay if you have the choice, and...

Cali Lewis Yes, a choice is fine.

Leo Laporte And that’s – you know, if you want – if you are Clayton’s imaginary neo-fight user, you can use the full screen, if you are multi-tasker like us you could use but my concerns and a completely fallacious and I’m probably just being paranoid though, is that Apple is not going to give us choice in the long run. Apple…

Joshua Topolsky No, no, your concern is – is well, that’s the well placed concern because the truth is that they may give us the choice at the beginning but Apple doesn’t actually want you; it’s clear from what Steve Jobs is saying at this event and from what they have been doing on the iPad and the iPhone, that they don’t actually want you to have a bunch of - they don’t want you to deal with window management. This is what they are trying to do.

Leo Laporte That’s right. There was a fight very early on When Steve Jobs went to Xerox PARC and first saw windowing interface there was a fight in the earliest days of technology between overlapping windows and tiled windows. And this was a very academic fight, but it was really about fundamentally how people use computers, whether they multi-task or whether they wanted to see the entire thing that’s going on at once and overlapping windows won, but it looks like, I have to say, very regressive, it’s almost like going back to DOS, we are going back to a day where not only are they not overlapping anymore but they, there is one window, and I think you have to tie this in to the App Store, because it’s rally a two-pronged attack on complexity. I think Apple is saying computers are too hard to use, we had huge success with the IOS, normal people really like this kind of simple interface, why don’t we bring this to the desk top, wouldn’t we do well, and there is some additional benefits because you have the App Store, now we tightly control the chain, we tightly control security…

Clayton Morris And we are starting to see that already with this, which is not shipping the Flash…

Leo Laporte There is no Flash on it. You know you can install it right now.

Joshua Topolsky Sure but…

Leo Laporte There is no Java on it either.

Joshua Topolsky That’s a somewhat separate issue but what you are saying about the App Store is I mean look they like to control things right, they like to have a clean uncluttered space…

Leo Laporte And their argument, and this is where you wear two hats as Steve Jobs, one argument is it’s great for business because we control it all, the other argument is it’s great for users, Steve Jobs is thinking well, let’s make it as cleaner, nicer, simpler, it’s zen.

Joshua Topolsky Well, it is; it is better for users, and it’s better for Apple as well and it is actually better for developers, developers have found…

Clayton Morris Sure.

Joshua Topolsky Gold mines in the App Store.

Leo Laporte Yes, clearly.

Joshua Topolsky The thing is it’s better for users as long as, and the problem is the as long as, as long as Apple keeps letting you install and use apps the way…

Leo Laporte Right, s long as we have choice, I’m okay.

Joshua Topolsky If there is choice, if there is a choice between full screen and window…

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky If there is choice between App Store and self install or side load, however way you want to refer to it, the concern here is, and look, honestly look, when the day comes if it’s like it’s only the App Store…

Leo Laporte Then we can take to the streets. Then we can fight.

Joshua Topolsky Then it is like people are going to jump ship.

Leo Laporte That’s it. Bye-bye. Yes.

Joshua Topolsky You know, the iPhone is new, the iPad is new, these are devices that didn’t exist, it appears to have been around for a long time and people are very used to the way they use computers and very comfortable with the way they use computers; they are not just going to be able to make a big sea change and say, well, guess what, you can’t side load an app on your computer anymore and people are just going to accept. Some people will, a lot of people won’t.

Clayton Morris And I don’t think they’d allow you that.

Leo Laporte You had a great article, listen to this from Engadget on the IOS app Store review guidelines, and I think this is kind of telling when you listen to these rules, these are the rules that are going to be in effect for the App Store when it launches in 3 months.

Joshua Topolsky It’s kind of scary and weird.

Leo Laporte Apps that crash will be rejected, okay. Apps that exhibit bugs will be rejected. Apps that are beta, demo, trial, or test versions will be rejected. So no more will you be able to, for instance, use a beta of Chrome. Apps must be packaged and submitted using Apple’s packaging technologies included in Xcode. No third party installers allowed. I wonder how much tie-in there is in to Xcode at this point.

Apps that require – this is really interesting, apps that require license keys or implement their own copy protection will be rejected. But Apple doesn’t have its own copy protection yet. In fact, Apple’s own products require serial numbers, so many of them, the Pro Apps. This is really weird. Apps that present a license screen at launch will be rejected, like iTunes? Yes, like iTunes.

Apps may not use update mechanisms outside the App Store. You’re starting to see some outlock in here. Apps that use deprecated or optionally installed technologies, for example and this is in Apple’s own words, Java or Rosetta, will be rejected. Apps that look similar to Apple products or apps bundled on the Mac…

Joshua Topolsky Yes, this is a – this rule is crazy to me, but it’s also – this rule also did exist at some point on the iPhone and they have somewhat relaxed it.

Leo Laporte Somewhat but you can’t get an alternative keyboard. You now can get alternative browsers.

Joshua Topolsky You can’t get an alternative keyboard but you can get alternative browsers…

Leo Laporte Yes.

Joshua Topolsky Mail clients, a lot of the core functionalities.

Leo Laporte But they have used this before to kill competitive products on the iPhone.

Joshua Topolsky Yes, I mean that is an absolute garbage rule.

Leo Laporte It says, Apps that look similar to Apple Products will be rejected, including the Finder, iChat, iTunes, and Dashboard. In other words…

Joshua Topolsky I mean how specific are they talking about? That’s the question. Do they mean, if it looks exactly like iTunes, you can’t do it. Okay, I get that. But if it’s a music player application…

Leo Laporte doubleTwist, I use doubleTwist to sync to Android phones and on my Mac. Bye-bye.

Joshua Topolsky Right, does that look enough like iTunes to Apple for them to say, you are not allowed to put it in the store? I mean that’s probably…

Clayton Morris What about – I mean I love what you also said too which is funny because it happens to me all the time. I use GarageBand on a regular basis but I use it on a regular basis and it crashes all the time. And so would it allow apps in the App Store that crash all the time. According to the rules they wouldn’t with bugs. What else crashes? iMovie, I have problems with iMovie. And these…

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] (62:31) crashes?

Clayton Morris Sure. And I was starting to see this a la carte approach to getting rid of the boxed software, two, was also the death knell to boxed software this week.

Leo Laporte You asked Steve Jobs if the iPhone will eventually allow apps to be side loaded from other sources like…

Joshua Topolsky Yes, actually, Nilay Patel, our Managing Editor asked when we were at the event. Actually when he was doing that walk-through he ended up with a circle around him which he likes to do once in a while and everybody can kind of ping him with questions. So Nilay asked him if he would allow apps to be side loaded on to the iPhone the way they are obviously going to allow on desktops once they have the App Store in place.

And his answer was interesting. He said not at this time. But he didn’t say no. So it’s possible that this could be a good thing. Maybe he would just say, look, we are doing it on the desktop. Let’s do it on these handheld devices. And that will leave you a lot of the stuff. I think a lot of the questions about what you can and can’t do on your phones, it would be a non-issue.

They just said, look, in our App Store we don’t do this. If you want to use our App Store, you can’t do X, Y, and Z. If you want to make a mechanism that does something outside of this, you can go sell it somewhere else and try to get people to load it onto their phone. That’s fine. But it’s not our problem. But they haven’t done that yet.

Leo Laporte I guess it’s foolish for me to be so worried because time will tell. But I just – it seems like this is the kind of thing Apple has done or would do which is just kind of slowly close it down. Cali, does that make you nervous at all? Am I just being paranoid?

Cali Lewis Well, we know that Apple likes to close. I mean that’s why they have succeeded. If we’re going to be completely honest, they have succeeded with their closed system, in a sense. It does appear that it’s going a little further than we would comfortably like. I think they are actually going to make some changes between now and the 90 days when the App Store is released. This almost feels like they just took and threw the guidelines without much processing.

Leo Laporte I hope you’re right. I hope this is not something – but I wonder if they have really thought this all out. They have got the strategic plan.

Joshua Topolsky They do tend to go back on some of their ideas. I mean we’ve seen them do that with – recently with the App Store where they are saying…

Leo Laporte Right, partly because people have rattled their cage.

Joshua Topolsky That will happen.

Leo Laporte And so I am rattling the cage. I am saying, be careful.

Joshua Topolsky But I think…

Cali Lewis It’s not a bad thing to rattle the cage.

Leo Laporte Right.

Cali Lewis It’s a good thing, totally.

Clayton Morris Josh, you touched on developers, Josh, a few months ago. And I have spoken to a few of them. And they are really excited about it. I mean think about the difficulty if you’re a small developer, getting your program out there. I mean you just do not have…

Leo Laporte Okay.

Clayton Morris Adobes that…

Leo Laporte But think of your Adobe because what is Adobe thinking, oh, crap.

Joshua Topolsky Yes, but Adobe…

Clayton Morris They’ve got the distribution channel. They have got the distribution network.

Leo Laporte They don’t need it.

Clayton Morris But these small companies, I mean these small companies that have to front-load stuff, they just don’t have the capability. They have one place that you can go and put your software and you can lose your 30%. But you’re already losing a lot of money in credit card fees and other things you have to run through to run it on your own.

Joshua Topolsky Sort of to make boxed offer packaging.

Leo Laporte Yeah, 30% is not bad

Joshua Topolsky On Adobe, I mean I don’t know – but I don’t know if you’re a Photoshop user or not…

Leo Laporte I am.

Joshua Topolsky Or any Adobe product besides Flash, but they have these bizarre custom installers that will like pop up [indiscernible] (65:49)…

Leo Laporte So does Microsoft, yes.

Clayton Morris Yes.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Joshua Topolsky No, I know. And that I find that stuff to be deeply annoyed. I would rather have a centralized place where everything is like I can check for an update. I can find out if there’s something new and I can decide, yes, it’s updated without having some weird pop up stuff.

Leo Laporte I am not saying this isn’t appealing. I understand that it’s very appealing. That’s what scares me.

Clayton Morris And they are still maps that we use, right.

Cali Lewis I don’t think that they are actually going to move towards not allowing us to have our own installations. I think that would be crazy of them. I don’t think that they are going that route.

Leo Laporte All right, okay,

Joshua Topolsky I agree, they are going to continue to let people deal with their software the way they want.

Cali Lewis Yes, they have to.

Joshua Topolsky But they are going to give you some option. And I would say a majority of users who are Mac users are going to eat this option up. And why not? It’s an actually really good idea. Why not have a centralized place to get software on your Mac? I mean it’s not…

Leo Laporte Well, in fact, they may not have to enforce it. They may just – it may be so popular that it just becomes where all the apps are and you just use it and that’s it. They may not have to say.

Cali Lewis I mean I can’t even see Final – like Final Cut, I am sorry. I work with Final Cut everyday. I can’t see that being available as a one quick install on the App Store honestly.

Leo Laporte I bet it is.

Joshua Topolsky It will, it will be.

Leo Laporte I bet everybody Apple products will be.

Joshua Topolsky It’s a big package though. How big is that? It’s multi-gig.

Cali Lewis Yeah, it’s huge. I don’t know how big that is but it’s huge.

Leo Laporte There are several DVDs. Yes, no, it’s big.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, we’re going to have to get some more bandwidth into people’s homes before they are…

Leo Laporte 44.4 gigs, somebody in the chat room says.

Joshua Topolsky Is that true?

Leo Laporte Yeah, it can’t be. That’s awfully big.

Clayton Morris Yeah, that’s big.

Joshua Topolsky I don’t know about that.

Leo Laporte Well, after being installed, I think that probably is true.

Cali Lewis Might be.

Leo Laporte Yes, I think a lot of people compared this to Steam which is a great system. Maybe this will just be like Steam.

Joshua Topolsky It’ll put Steam out of business actually. That’s what it’s going to do.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Let’s take a break. We got a great panel here, so much fun, Clayton Morris from FOX & Friends and Games'n Gadgets is here; also Joshua Topolsky from Engadget; and Cali Lewis from GeekBeat.TV. And you are expanding. You’ve got a couple of new shows. We’ll talk about that in just a little bit, Cali.

But first, I want to mention our friends at Audible is a great book store for people who love audio entertainment, 75,000 titles. And I am going to tell you how you can get two of them absolutely free. It play on all the devices, the iPhone, the iPad, Zune, the Kindle, Android devices, in fact, they have a great app for both iPhone and Android and BlackBerry too although they don’t mention it sometimes as much as we ought to probably.

It will allow you to browse your library. One of the nice things about Audible is every book you’ve ever bought on Audible is available on your library. And unlike maybe TV and movies, people often re-read books. And so it’s really nice. I’ve been an Audible member for 10 years. I’ve got over 400 books and I can always go back and download a book and listen to it. And this is a really nice way to do it with these new apps for Android, iPhone, iPod with Touch and BlackBerry.

If you go to Audible, I was really excited about Keith Richards' new biography. I can’t wait to read that. Did you read that in The Times today? Oh, I can’t wait to read that.

Clayton Morris Yes, but you know, he might be out of Pirates, the next Pirates movie because of the stuff he says in it.

Leo Laporte He says he is the original Johnny Depp.

Clayton Morris Yes.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Joshua Topolsky What Johnny Depp?

Clayton Morris Apparently, Disney is getting cold feet about it. And so…

Leo Laporte No, really?

Clayton Morris Yes.

Leo Laporte Oh, it’s too bad. It’s called Life. It is not yet out on Audible because it’s not yet out for either in the book store. But I’d be willing to bet, there will be an audio version from Audible.

Joshua Topolsky I hope it’s read by him, that would be nice.

Leo Laporte It’s not. I looked. It’s not

Clayton Morris Because it would be 872 hours long.

Leo Laporte And then I had all my blood taken out of my body.

Joshua Topolsky It’s not actually – that didn’t happen, right, that was just a – that’s an urban legend. I am sure it’s…

Leo Laporte I don’t know, we’ll have to read the book.

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] (69:34).

Leo Laporte Is it – no, I think that’s the Swiss treatment for heroin addiction. They take your blood out. And they put new blood in. I believe…

Clayton Morris Oh, I think that’s a lie.

Cali Lewis So scary.

Leo Laporte We’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we.

Joshua Topolsky I just have to get addicted to heroin and go to Switzerland to find out.

Leo Laporte Yes, you can try to find out.

Clayton Morris To find out, that could be your hands off.

Leo Laporte No. They do have pre-orders. I don’t know, are you guys Tom Clancy fans? Because the new Tom Clancy, Dead or Alive, is available on Audible for pre-order. This is – Lou Diamond Phillips narrates this one, that’s going to be fun. If you like thrillers, if you like fiction, if you like non-fiction, if you like history, there is – it’s just all here. 75,000 titles. They have a great sci-fi and fantasy section. I’m a big sci-fi fan. And I try to actually limit myself. I get like a sci-fi book and a non-fiction book, because I want to fill my brain with facts as well as fiction.

It is a great resource for you. Now here’s how you get two books absolutely free. Go to, You’ll be signing up for the Platinum account. That’s two book credits per month, and the first two are free, you can cancel it at any time, you will get to keep those books forever. Offer’s good in the U.S. and Canada. There is no expiration date. This is going to go on forever.

This is interesting. American Plastic: Boob Jobs, Credit Cards and our Quest for Perfection. So you never know if you’re going to – the fun thing…

Clayton Morris Read that, got that for my mom for Christmas.

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s a great book for mom.

Joshua Topolsky Really? Wow.

Leo Laporte The riveting story of how cosmetic surgery and plastic money melted together to create a subprime mortgage crisis of the body.

Cali Lewis What? Wow.

Joshua Topolsky They’re going to blame the mortgage crisis on plastic surgery. It’s amazing.

Leo Laporte Uh, this is bizarre. Apparently the author is a sociologist for the American Plastic Company.

Cali Lewis That just sounds way too fascinating not to read.

Leo Laporte I agree! I agree!

Joshua Topolsky Let’s listen to it right now and…

Leo Laporte Well, you want to listen to a little of it? Here, let’s just try it. Just a little snippet of American Plastic: Boob Jobs, Credit Cards and…

[Audiobook clip] (1:11:35 to 1:11:50)

Leo Laporte What?! Is that real?

Joshua Topolsky Is that a real show?

Cali Lewis I didn’t know about it.

Leo Laporte I’m horrified!

Joshua Topolsky This author is…

Clayton Morris If it is, why aren’t I watching it?

Joshua Topolsky That’s disturbing. It is truly disturbing.

Leo Laporte The chat room, is that – yes? No, the chat room’s saying it’s a real show.

Cali Lewis Yeah, they are saying it’s real.

Joshua Topolsky So we are like, we’re only about two or three years away from The Running Man as a TV show, correct?

Leo Laporte Oh, my god.

Clayton Morris I hope so. I hope so.

Joshua Topolsky Right? Whether we actually are criminals …

Clayton Morris I want buzz saws. I want to see buzz saws for real.

Joshua Topolsky And I want to see…

Clayton Morris The guy with the chainsaw…

Joshua Topolsky I mean we really are just closing in on The Running Man as an actual reality show.

Leo Laporte There’s a tassel in front of your face, Clayton. I’m just going to move that out of the way there. Yeah I saw it.

Joshua Topolsky I can’t wait.

Leo Laporte My – how about this? Do you love – who doesn’t love P. G. Wodehouse and Jeeves? Here’s a new recording of My Man Jeeves. This will be very British [ph] I assume (1:12:43)

[Audiobook excerpt] (1:12:45 to 1:12:49).

Leo Laporte All right, I’m not buying that. That’s – forget that. Some guy with a Brooklyn accent reading, My Man Jeeves.

Joshua Topolsky Reading a British book.

Cali Lewis That’s just wrong.

Leo Laporte That’s really wrong. There’s books for kids, Emily and the Incredible Shrinking Rat. It’s brand new. I’m just looking through the new stuff. This is just really fun. I’ll tell you what. Go to right now right now. Look at the new releases, look at the coming stuff – coming attractions, new – oh, yes, yes! October 26, Keith Richard’s Life?

Clayton Morris Who reads it?

Leo Laporte I saw on – in The Times article, a guy named Jamie Foxx.

Clayton Morris I have it. Jamie Foxx reads it?

Leo Laporte That can’t be the Jamie Foxx. Look in The New York Times, because that can’t be – I must have misread that. There he is.

Clayton Morris There he is.

Leo Laporte Oh, and then I lit a cigarette, and Mick said, you’re a wanker!

Joshua Topolsky Where is he? Do you how far in the article ….

Leo Laporte He actually – he said some nasty things – no, I think I might have found it on Amazon. Anyway…

Clayton Morris The new David Sedaris is on there too.

Leo Laporte Oh, I love him.

Cali Lewis Oh, he’s good.

Clayton Morris And he reads all his stuff.

Leo Laporte He does his own stuff. In fact let’s look at that. There’s a whole David Sedaris collection on here.

Clayton Morris Squirrel Seeks Chipmunk: A Modest Bestiary is the new book. It’s a kids’ –

Leo Laporte It’s not a kids’ book.

Cali Lewis Wait, it’s a kids’ book?

Clayton Morris Well, kind of – who knows? Basically, he personifies animals. And he writes all these different…

Leo Laporte Let’s just listen to a little bit of that.

[Audiobook excerpt] (1:14:14)

Leo Laporte Oh, this is the beginning. It’s got music. Elaine Stritch is on this, too.

[Audiobook excerpt] (1:14:20 to 1:14:25)

Leo Laporte Well, I don’t know. I’m sure there will be some reading at some point. Audible – we don’t have – it’s only an hour and a half show, folks. for two free books. Sign up today, you’re going to love it! It’s great. Audible – your mom should have an Audible subscription, actually. That would be a good Christmas gift.

Clayton Morris You know, I actually – you remember a few years ago, there was a company that was doing the CDs – I got her a subscription, like a year-long – because she had a long commute, and she runs this non-profit, it’s like 45 minutes away. So I got her for Christmas these CDs by mail.

Leo Laporte I did that.

Clayton Morris She would – when she was done with a book on tape, she’d mail them back. I should get her this, yeah.

Leo Laporte Audible’s so much better, because – yeah, you – first of all, you only get them for a month, you have to mail them back, it comes in a box you got to keep the – I used to do that when I commuted to TechTV. And then Audible came along in 2001, changed my life.

Clayton Morris Yeah.

Leo Laporte You know, give her – this is a great Christmas gift. Give her an iPod and a subscription to Audible.

Cali Lewis She will love that as a gift.

Leo Laporte It’s a great gift, yeah. I mean it’s a gift that – all year long, you get…

Joshua Topolsky Keeps on giving. Keeps on giving.

Leo Laporte Boy, you’re a wordsmith.

Joshua Topolsky I really am, that’s true.

Leo Laporte You ought to be a writer or something.

Joshua Topolsky I’m a professional wordsmith, actually.

Leo Laporte Professional wordsmith. All right, let’s move on. We’ve talked enough about Apple, I’m bored to tears. Let’s talk instead about – let me think. Google. Seems that Google has been using the Dutch sandwich and the Irish doubleswitch.

Clayton Morris The Dutch oven, what?

Leo Laporte No, I know, this is hard to believe. Let me get my terminology straight.

Cali Lewis I think you have it backwards there.

Leo Laporte It’s the Double Irish and the Dutch Sandwich. What do you think? Clayton Morris, what do you think those are? Google’s doing it.

Clayton Morris The Dutch Sandwich. I think I had one one time. It’s like ice cream in the center, and you put like…

Leo Laporte There’s a waffle, isn’t there a waffle involved?

Clayton Morris You can get like a waffle or you can get a little crunch to it, and you get it rolled in chocolate and it’s delicious.

Leo Laporte Anybody know…

Clayton Morris It’s much better than a Dutch oven.

Joshua Topolsky That’s – the Dutch Sandwich is a sex – it’s a sex act.

Leo Laporte No, no. Don’t go to Urban Dictionary.

Joshua Topolsky Very nasty. It involves four people.

Leo Laporte No, no. It’s something Adam Curry used to do.

Clayton Morris And it also involves wooden shoes, and I’m not sure how that all works out.

Joshua Topolsky It’s a very sexy sex move.

Clayton Morris Oh, Leo’s leaving.

Joshua Topolsky Leo’s going to demonstrate. I don’t…

Clayton Morris He has a pair of those wooden shoes. And there they are!

Cali Lewis Oh, no. Oh, no.

Joshua Topolsky Wow.

Cali Lewis I can’t believe you have them.

Clayton Morris Clogs.

Joshua Topolsky Clogs, I believe. Are those clogs?

Cali Lewis Where did you get those, Leo?

Leo Laporte These are Dutch wooden shoes, they’re – yeah. So, let me demonstrate. So you get the wooden – no, no. I won’t do that to you.

Joshua Topolsky Not going to do a Dutch Sandwich for us?

Leo Laporte No, I’ll…

Clayton Morris You need satin sheets …

Cali Lewis When you actually get to the explanation of this, it’s going to be so much more boring.

Leo Laporte Actually, it’s kind of interesting. So it turns out, if you are a multinational corporation, what you do – Clayton, you should be paying attention. You too, Cali. What you do is you set up…

Joshua Topolsky Why shouldn’t I be paying attention?

Leo Laporte Because you’re an ink-stained wretch, you’ll never make any money.

Joshua Topolsky All right.

Leo Laporte You’re a journalist! Don’t you know what that means? So…

Joshua Topolsky Well, you know I’m a young man, anything could happen.

Leo Laporte That’s true, you could sell out at any time.

Joshua Topolsky I’m hoping to.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky I’m hoping to sell out to AOL, at some point.

Leo Laporte Actually, I believe you did.

Clayton Morris I believe he already did.

Joshua Topolsky I didn’t get anything.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I was going to say, I don’t think you participated in that.

Clayton Morris Not really, no.

Leo Laporte I don’t see Ryan Block and Peter Rojas anywhere. Where did they go?

Joshua Topolsky GDGT. GDGT.

Leo Laporte I know, I know.

Clayton Morris Now this is the brilliance of Leo Laporte, everyone. If you’re listening to TWiT for the very first time, this is what Leo will do now. He’ll make tax bills from Google.

Leo Laporte You got it! You got it!

Clayton Morris Interesting. And I – I just wanted to hear how you were going to this because you are a professional broadcaster.

Leo Laporte Here’s the deal. All right. Yeah. Clayton – and you’re about to be wealthy. So here’s the deal. You set up a dummy corporation in Ireland, okay? Why Ireland? Because Ireland was the pits of Europe for a long time, just an economic devastated – I mean just – scorched earth – terrible situation.

Joshua Topolsky So now you offended the Irish, so flat – add one more to the list.

Leo Laporte Oh, well believe me, I ain’t done. I’m going to offend everybody before this is done.

Cali Lewis Well, we have another, what, 15 minutes?

Leo Laporte I got plenty of time.

Cali Lewis He can offend a lot more people.

Leo Laporte Wait till I start talking in the Irish accent. So Ireland, in order to – and by the way, it’s The Irish Miracle, they call it.

Joshua Topolsky Right.

Leo Laporte Or maybe that’s Saint Bernadette. Anyway, The Irish Miracle was, they took this economically depressed nation; and by eliminating corporate taxes, they – all these American companies moved into Ireland and actually, Ireland had a huge – over the last decade – just incredible success by eliminating corporate taxes. So what you do is you set up a dummy corporation in Ireland, you transfer your intellectual property – this is what Google did, by the way – to this dummy corporation in Ireland. Now the IRS is very – you have to transfer it for fair value, and this is where you can get into a little bit of trouble. You can’t just say, here, give me $1 and I’ll give you the page rank algorithm. So there was some decent amount of money exchanged and Google had to pay taxes on that decent amount of money. But now, all the intellectual property is in Ireland, Google licenses it, the profits go to Ireland. Then, that’s when the Dutch Sandwich comes in.

Joshua Topolsky It’s delicious.

Leo Laporte They send it to Holland, where Holland allows you – I don’t know, it gets complicated here. But Holland allows you to set up a corporation in, let’s say, Bermuda, which is what Google did. So the money goes from Ireland to Holland to Bermuda…

Clayton Morris So there’s no income tax at all.

Leo Laporte No tax at all.

Joshua Topolsky I think, I think, what you’re describing is business as usual for a…

Leo Laporte For multinationals. And this is what’s really sad, $60 billion every year, it’s estimated as lost, not just Google but Google only saved a few billion. Few billion in taxes doing this technique, but 60 billion a year is lost to American tax payers, by this Dutch Sandwich and Double Irish technique.

Cali Lewis Where did these names –

Clayton Morris Has it done anything to the Ireland’s economy? I mean, last year I was in Dublin and you know they have a really – they’re very proud of their thriving tax sector in downtown Dublin.

Leo Laporte Guess why?

Clayton Morris Have they been able to reap any of the benefits of this?

Leo Laporte There is a problem because Ireland doesn’t get any taxes from these big companies but their employment. They get the employment. Right?

Joshua Topolsky [ph] Callus – (1:20:35) such as the financial damage as the [ph] Callus (1:20:38) hospital visits due to [indiscernible] (1:20.41).

Leo Laporte No, you’re back with – you’re back with this – the wooden shoes. Let me tell you –

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (1:20:49) actual Dutch Sandwich.

Leo Laporte All right. Is anybody incensed – but you’re just saying it’s business as usual from multinational.

Joshua Topolsky Come on, I mean, seriously – I mean it doesn’t surprise you that they’re using [ph] pay tune (1:20:57).

Clayton Morris It’s the same old tune. It’s the same old tune for large companies…

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (1:20:59) to make a bunch of extra money.

Leo Laporte The corporate tax rate – nominal corporate tax rate in the U.S. is 35%, I know because I pay 35% corporate taxes. But Google…

Joshua Topolsky [ph] Not (1:21:10) you?

Leo Laporte Yeah – well, I don’t – I’m not apparently rich enough to do the Double Irish, Dutch Sandwich.

Cali Lewis You can try though. You can try.

Leo Laporte I’m not flexible enough.

Clayton Morris But the problem – you’re talking about this but any – any sort of international legal scholar, not that I know any, would tell you that this is all legal.

Leo Laporte Oh, it’s completely legal.

Clayton Morris [ph] That’s the sad part. And they setup these laws this way on purpose (1:21:29).

Joshua Topolsky The problem is that people are doing it; problem is that it’s okay to do it. I mean that it’s not just okay, but this kind of stuff is the norm for corporations.

Leo Laporte Google is paying 2.4% in U.S. taxes. 2.4%, how much did you pay last year?

Clayton Morris That’s mind-blowing.

Leo Laporte In corporate – in U.S. personal taxes, I mean I…

Joshua Topolsky Oh, god, well, look, come on, it’s really very flawed tax system in this country, do we not?

Leo Laporte [ph] I guess it happen (1:21:52).

Joshua Topolsky I don’t know if how politically everybody get, but I mean, we do have Clayton here so –

Leo Laporte Well, I think that you can’t blame Google, well maybe you can, Google is not the only tech company doing it, it certainly not the only multinational doing it. I – obviously the laws have to be reformed.

Joshua Topolsky I’ll blame Obama, definitely his fault.

Leo Laporte It’s his fault.

Joshua Topolsky He started this; he’s got to finish it.

Clayton Morris Hey, it’s Joe Canadian points out in the chat room, people are doing the Dutch Sandwich there’s the KFC Double Down chicken sandwich which is also –

Joshua Topolsky Let me tell you something, I’ve had the Double Down.

Leo Laporte You have?

Joshua Topolsky I had it – it was grilled not fried chicken.

Clayton Morris [Indiscernible] (1:22:22) it’s delicious but I cannot in good conscious bring myself to eat that thing.

Leo Laporte Oh, no, but see, you missed something.

Joshua Topolsky [ph] I mean it’s that (1:22:27) single piece of actual [ph] [indiscernible] there (82:29).

Leo Laporte Joshua did the healthy version; he grilled, not fried, Double Down.

Joshua Topolsky I was on a low-carb, I was going [ph] to work a (1:23:35) low-carb diet for about a month and I have the double – the Double Down is totally allowable, if you’re doing low-carb, no problem, so –

Leo Laporte Which tells you what’s wrong with the low-carb diet by the way.

Joshua Topolsky Pretty delicious. You know what’s – no it’s actually what’s right with low-carb diet.

Cali Lewis I don’t even know what’s in a Double Down, I keep hearing this, but I have no idea what it is.

Joshua Topolsky It’s very simple, it is two chicken patties either fried or grilled as the bread and then inside of the chicken patties is cheese and bacon.

Leo Laporte And some sort of sauce, there is like –

Cali Lewis Wow!

Joshua Topolsky Just like a delicious cream sauce.

Leo Laporte Cream sauce of unknown origin.

Cali Lewis [ph] [Indiscernible] the bacon [indiscernible] (1:23:08).

Clayton Morris But the problem is there’s no bun. So just a greasy thing all of your hand.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky But the bun is the chicken. Yeah, it’s the bun is the chicken and [ph] the meat is [indiscernible] (1:23:19).

Cali Lewis Do they give you some sort of special love or anything?

Joshua Topolsky They give you kind of thing you can unwrap sort of like eating a burrito.

Leo Laporte Yeah, Double Down glove, take out.

Joshua Topolsky They give you a surgical glove [ph] so you can [indiscernible] (1:23:31).

Leo Laporte I think that’s a great invention. I’ve invented it.

Cali Lewis [ph] You love [indiscernible] times (1:23:34).

Leo Laporte The Double Down glove. I knew – I worked with a producer who wanted to invent the [ph] Cheeto Mint (1:23:41) because she would still watch football games and her hands would get orange from the Cheetos, so she invented these [ph] Cheeto Mints (1:23:56).

Clayton Morris [indiscernible] (1:23:49) you know, if you’ve got blood on your clothes, then you don’t need to worry about laundry, you’ve got other problems to [ph] [indiscernible] Cheetos Mint (1:23:55).

Leo Laporte It gets blood out.

Joshua Topolsky [ph] I think a [indiscernible] sort of (1:24:00) device for Cheetos if you could [ph] like if you got into the [indiscernible] (1:24:02).

Leo Laporte [ph] Tong. (1:24:01)

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, [ph] tong. Cheeto tongs (1:24:04) they are the right size. Like chop sticks put together – can we patent that?

Leo Laporte I just read it. I just want to –

Cali Lewis The part of the fun of Cheetos is licking the fingers. I mean why do you want to [ph] mess with then? (1:24:18)

Joshua Topolsky Straight off the Cheetos with the knives.

Leo Laporte So Google TV, it seem like a good idea at the time, I ordered one, have you got your Logitech review yet Joshua Topolsky?

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, did you see, we did The Engadget Show last night. We had a review on stage and we demoed it, played around with it. There’s some really cool stuff, there’s some really dumb stuff. At the end of the day, most people, the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of humans on the planet do not want to spend $300 on some weird box, they have to hook up to their cable box to use Google searches on their television, it’s just not realistic. I think that the stuff built into a TV is far more likely to get [ph] attraction (1:24:59) than the stuff where it’s like a separate box, you have to go and get. So Google TV can be a success or have some impact as long as companies like Sony and Panasonic and any other – Visio, they want to start building that stuff into the TV. I think they have a really hard fight if you – they’re asking people to spend $300 on a separate box for you.

Clayton Morris People keep asking why this is different than WebTV…

Cali Lewis It is a very good move though towards the future.

Clayton Morris …and I think it’s different – I think it’s significantly different because the web is different now, and it’s not WebTV because the web is so much more robust, but I agree with Josh completely in playing with it in the Logitech box, it just doesn’t make much sense for the average consumer and I have to say, it’s – it’d be better baked into a television and if the price wasn’t [indiscernible] (1:25:40).

Leo Laporte [ph] Or you can get a television, Sony is great…(1:25:41)

Clayton Morris Sony. And I played with the Sony and I played with Sony Television [ph] with it (1:25:45) baked in and it – you know, it makes more sense, look if you’re going to get a new television and you’re in the market for a new television, you’ve got Yahoo! Widgets, you’ve got these other TVs with Internet capability, and you’re not paying much more to have Internet-ready televisions, get it. I don’t know that it’s a game changer at all.

Leo Laporte Cali what do you think?

Cali Lewis No, I think, it is a game changer not necessarily in the sense that everybody will be buying one of these things, but it is impacting the future, I mean, we all know that everything is going to become integrated more and more and more people are watching podcasts on their TV, they’re having to work a little bit to do that…

Leo Laporte Well you –

Cali Lewis …but more and more people will be able to just very easily do it.

Leo Laporte You know why they’re watching podcasts because NBC, ABC and CBS are blocking actual TV shows.

Clayton Morris Well I want to say I agree with Cali. I think it is a game changer but I don’t think it’s like – I don’t think Google’s device is the game changer. I think the game changer is big companies with lots of money are starting to look at the living room and they’re saying what can we do to actually innovate here and how can we make this experience better for users. Unfortunately, the roadblock everybody hits and they’re going to keep hitting is how do you make it better for users – excuse me – how do you make it better for users when you’ve got these cable companies that are still basically throwing up blockades and this is – and also this – the content providers throwing up blockades to get in that content in an easy decent way and that’s what – what’s happening now is like –

Leo Laporte Hulu’s blocking ABC and NBC are allowing you to watch promotional clips but not full TV shows.

Clayton Morris Yeah, well, Hulu came right – Google is – didn’t Logitech write on their website immediately say they put up a video that we can’t get to Hulu now.

Leo Laporte All you have to do is change the browser’s user agent to…

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, but – but an average user [ph] in it. (1:27:35)

Leo Laporte Are you laughing at me?

Clayton Morris [Indiscernible] (1:27:39) because I just you know I can – because I love this stuff –

Leo Laporte We call it Dutch Sandwich.

Clayton Morris [Indiscernible] (1:27:43) picture of my mom, she doesn’t even know how to turn on a television, she’s going to change the user agent and so I know the game changing thing...

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (1:27:51).

Clayton Morris Yeah, I just – the game changing thing bothers me a little bit, I mean I really think of a game change something…

Leo Laporte This is the opposite of what we were just talking about with Apple full screen, you know App Store, this is like as complicated as you could make a TV.

Joshua Topolsky Well, the box itself is – the interface itself isn’t that complicated.

Leo Laporte Except it takes 45 minutes to set it up.

Joshua Topolsky No, that’s the problem, if you just plug in your TV and your cable box and suddenly it existed there, that’s a different story.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky But the problem here is – and this is the [ph] same in good (1:28:17) Apple experience this was – I thought something that was really striking when we reviewed the Apple TV. They took – you know even in their presentation Jobs shared Iron Man 2 and Modern Family and all the stuff you’d want to watch on your Apple TV, right? When we got a review unit no Iron Man 2 and no Modern Family, the content maker said, guess what, we’re not giving you the stuff on your device. You can have it if you go to video store, you can have it if you buy it, but you can’t have it on your device to rent, you’re not going to be able to watch it streaming online. And that’s what they’re doing here, Hulu is saying, they’re saying – you can’t get to Hulu, ABCs, you can’t watch Modern Family.

Leo Laporte Isn’t this – isn’t this just temporary? Isn’t this, though, a case of these companies? You know, it’s like the record companies, no, no, no, they’re going to fight every step of the way, but ultimately it’s going to happen.

Joshua Topolsky Well the record companies – the record companies, didn’t have the kind of control that these guys have it. It’s a completely different situation. I mean, Comcast and Time Warner in collusion with the content makers have control not only of the – where the content is coming from and what you’re looking at it on, but the pipes that it comes down on.

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky So I mean it’s a crazy situation that we have here where, you know, when I buy cable why do I have to buy 600 channels when I only watch 14 of them? I mean it’s – and people have been railroaded like that for years…

Leo Laporte Right.

Joshua Topolsky …and there’s [ph] no ended site (1:29:34) right now that [indiscernible] (1:29:36)...

Leo Laporte So you don’t think à la carte television is in the future.

Clayton Morris Never.

Joshua Topolsky It should be.

Leo Laporte Really?

Joshua Topolsky It should be. It should be in the future…

Clayton Morris [ph] I’ll – (1:29:41) never.

Joshua Topolsky …but it’s not going to be in the future until we find a way to circumvent the situation.

Leo Laporte Haven’t they – when people wants something, which – and they clearly want à la carte TV, if not by channel-by-channel – if not show-by-show but channel-by-channel, if people want something haven’t they always in the long run, hasn’t technology always inevitably given them a chance to get it.

Joshua Topolsky Well, look at – look at carriers and cell phones, I mean, you’ve got a situation where the dream scenario would be you buy a phone, right? That you can actually afford and then you say I’m going to – I want this kind of service, maybe I’ll just pay monthly for this service and decide when to end that contract instead of having some elaborate two-year contract. But the reality is you have to pick a certain device and a certain carrier and get locked into a two year contract and that doesn’t seem to be changing anytime soon. And I think the same is true for TV, it’s a real problem, we have huge, huge corporations that have huge amounts of control over what are going to be – or what already are vital services and there’s no way to disconnect, there’s two things, you can’t say just give me what I want, how I want it, because it’s – your lines are controlled and content is controlled by a single company.

Clayton Morris If the cable companies can actually get good box…

Cali Lewis I think more than à la carte or sooner than à la carte we are going to wind up seeing just the – just more content, more user generated content, let’s say, or side by side with the TV that we already get. I agree, I think à la carte is –

Leo Laporte That’s what you and I do Cali, and that’s good for us, because that’s what you and I do.

Cali Lewis It’s very good for us. Very good.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, but is there going to – when is the shift going to happen when that stuff becomes the mainstream? I mean we are so far from that. I mean we are also so far from, there’s a lot of bad content, a lot of – very little quality content, obviously you guys are producing some of the best in the industry.

Leo Laporte Oh you…

Cali Lewis [ph] Oh shocks (1:31:26).

Joshua Topolsky [ph] I am told (1:31:28) shameless flattery is very [indiscernible] (1:31:31).

Leo Laporte Yeah. I love those first looks by the way. Have I told you how much I love those?

Joshua Topolsky [ph] Oh you like that [indiscernible]?

Leo Laporte I think it’s such a good idea. Yeah I love that.

Clayton Morris But there’s two different audiences, I had a meeting with a few weeks ago and talking about a show that I do –

Leo Laporte They are great, I love, they are great.

Clayton Morris Yeah, they are fantastic. And you know it’s interesting they shed some light on how their audiences are watching television and consuming content on set top boxes versus the web and we – me and my buddy Jim do paranormal shows, I love UFOs and ghosts and stuff like that, so we do this Paranormal Report show once a week. And we are figuring out the different audiences he saying look, the people that are watching on the Roku box, which I love, never watch it on the web, and the people that are watching on the web never watch it on these set top boxes but they get enormous traffic through the app on the Roku box. And people are sampling this and someone in the chat room said I am not sure people actually want à la carte television, I think maybe we assume that they do, but isn’t there a certain amount of sampling going on that people like the Clicker and it’s the sort of age old Clicker thing, right, [ph] we just – (1:32:32) give me that Clicker and –

Joshua Topolsky [ph] Why can’t you have both? (1:32:33) I mean à la carte doesn’t just have to be I want all of the – I only want these specific options. I mean I think there is a way to do both that will please the consumer. And also if you want to flip around, like for me I could tell you very effectively and clearly what channels I want and don’t want, right. If I could get a package from the cable company that just have those channels I’d be fine that, I wouldn’t feel like oh man I wish I had – I don’t – what kind of random, like Animal Planet or something because I am never going to – maybe I would watch Animal Planet –

Cali Lewis You are never going to watch Animal Planet?

Joshua Topolsky I might watch Animal Planet [indiscernible] (1:33:05).

Clayton Morris Why do you hate animals?

Cali Lewis I am very disappointed.

Joshua Topolsky I don’t hate animals, I am an animal lover. I am –

Leo Laporte No, he likes them, we know how he likes them, he likes them with a Chicken Is The Bun.

Cali Lewis Right.

Clayton Morris He likes them deliciously. But hey we just got cable, we just got this house. Yeah this is a perfect example of [ph] how the cable companies… (1:33:21)

Leo Laporte It’s beautiful – are you living in Switzerland now, it’s beautiful.

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] (1:33:25). No we are up actually in the Poconos, this is the…

Leo Laporte Are you really – oh, I am so jealous.

Joshua Topolsky Give me your exact address.

Clayton Morris Literally moved in yesterday, and so this is a little [indiscernible] (1:33:34).

Leo Laporte My daughter is up near you, if you ever want to stop by Bard College across the river there from you.

Clayton Morris What’s her exact address?

Leo Laporte I’ll tell you.

Joshua Topolsky [ph] Give her (1:33:40) exact location, yeah.

Clayton Morris But we had cable come out here, and this is the thing we went through two boxes already in a day. We had a guy come back out again because these Scientific Atlanta boxes and these Samsung boxes are terrible, if the cable companies could step it up and the hardware, Josh, I would love to get your perspective on this, if they would step up and say you know what not only do you have the great DVR content now that actually works, but you have got all of this à la carte program that you can pick and choose from, you have got all of this on-demand stuff. It’s not limited, then they could really – I wouldn’t need to get a Google TV. If I could jump on YouTube right on one of these cable boxes…

Joshua Topolsky You mean like a TiVO box, I think is what you –

Clayton Morris Exactly.

Joshua Topolsky Well, I mean – and that’s the thing that – but here’s the thing, what is the incentive for Time Warner or Comcast to give you better options? First up, they don’t want you off of their main feed, right. They want you to be – they want you to be on the Comcast main feed as much as possible. They don’t want you on the Internet looking at YouTube, because that takes money out of their pocket at the end of the day, because they need [ph] advertisers. (1:34:42)

Clayton Morris [ph] Why? (1:34:41) You are still using their Internet service, you are still paying for cable.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, you are paying for that one part, but then you are not watching the advertisers on the networks that they have deals with, that they have sweetheart deals with that are pushing the content on to their lines. So what is the incentive to Comcast? Is it user outrage because that obviously hasn’t happened yet? I don’t think the –

Cali Lewis I think the incentive is when people do start to in mass cancel their subscriptions.

Leo Laporte They want to stay in business.

Cali Lewis Because they are starting to –

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Cali Lewis It’s going to happen more and more hopefully. And that will be the incentive. It’s just – but it won’t happen for a while.

Joshua Topolsky I think we are light years away from that. That’s like saying, oh, the [ph] carriers were (95:20) – I am not disagreeing with you that that’s what’s going to make it happen is the – there has to be some outrage from people who actually use their services. They have to say, screw this, I am canceling it. But that doesn’t happen in phones. We’ve seen the same thing for years and years and years. And people have had the same complaint like, oh, there’s going to be outrage and people will say, I am canceling my service and I am not going to pay these crazy contract fees and $0.25 for a text message, which in my opinion is a criminal offense and should be punishable by law.

Leo Laporte Right, but we still do it. You are absolutely right.

Joshua Topolsky But we still do it and nobody – there is no outrage and people are just basically, they –

Leo Laporte Well, there may not be outrage but we still do it.

Joshua Topolsky I was just talking to Aaron Woodman from Microsoft about this. He is one of the guys who’s deeply involved with Windows Phone 7. And we were talking about how you change consumer behavior because at the end of the day, all of the stuff is about the behaviors of the consumer and whether or not they will take what they are given, right. And we have a tendency to just take what these companies [ph] throw out (96:10), right. We are used to it. It’s somewhat comfortable. It may not be the best situation in the world, but it is what it is.

Leo Laporte Because we are [indiscernible] (96:18). Is that what you are saying?

Joshua Topolsky Basically.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky But I am –

Leo Laporte I want to read you what Mark Cuban said, I think very interesting, I am not a big fan of Mark Cuban. I think sometimes he really gets it big time wrong. But I am going to read what he said. His article – his column, it kind of takes off from your Engadget revelation that Netflix is testing a streaming-only service. We are going to talk about that in just a little bit.

Clayton Morris is here; Joshua Topolsky from Engadget; Cali Lewis of GeekBeat.TV; real briefly before we get to Mark’s thoughts on Netflix and why Google is about to hand Netflix the keys to the kingdom, I want to tell you about the Edge. I was at BlogWorld last week. Cali, you were down there too. And Ford was doing test drives.

And I took this opportunity to drive the new Edge. I think this is such a sweet car. I had heard that it was the most technologically sophisticated car from Ford. And I have to say, once you get inside, you really feel that way, first of all, looking at it, the beautiful smooth lines, you really can see how computer design has changed how cars are designed, I mean just very fluid aerodynamic shape.

Inside I think – I am very aware of the aesthetics of instrument panels. My 2011 Mustang – 2010 Mustang, one of the reason I like this is very simple clean instrument panel. You see the same thing in the Ford Edge, the center stack, the door trim, the shifter, gorgeous, I took a picture of the shifter and posted it on Instagram. I mean just really beautiful.

Exceptional fit and finish, Ford has really got that down now. These cars are solid. They feel good. Now the best-in-class second row legroom, lots of space back there, the available panoramic Vista Roof, this is one thing I am sorry I did not get on the Mustang, with a forward panel that tilts or opens fully and a fixed rear skylight so the back seat gets light as well as the front seat.

Ambient lighting, I have this on the Mustang. This is so cool. You can change the colors for your moods, you get purple, amber, white, whatever you like that’s a standard in the Limited and Sport and available on the SEL.

But the engine is where you really see technology. It’s got that advanced 3.5 liter Ti-VCT V-6, 285 horsepower, 27 highway miles per gallon according to the EPA. If you get the Sport, you get even more horsepower, 305 horsepower, 280 pounds of torque, sport-tuned suspension, 22-inch polished aluminum wheels, performance tires, I mean it is sweet.

And of course, like most of the Ford vehicles, you get the Ford SYNC. In fact, the Edge has MyFord Touch which is the SYNC+. They have got two screens behind the wheel in front of you. One is the tachometer although it can be programmed, and then the other one is kind of the media and stuff, and then of course you’ve got the big center screen, the 8-inch touch screen in the center stack.

All the SYNC voice –

Clayton Morris I love it.

Leo Laporte Have you seen it?

Cali Lewis It’s sweet.

Clayton Morris Oh, yeah, I have played with it. I absolutely love the MyFord Touch. And I have done a couple of test drives with it in some different vehicles of theirs. And I just love – I love how it integrates with everything. You know you have got Pandora –

Leo Laporte Yes, Slacker, Stitcher, it’s so awesome.

Clayton Morris A Pandora streaming Slacker Radio in that.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Clayton Morris It’s great.

Joshua Topolsky I have got a question about this car.

Leo Laporte Yes, Joshua.

Joshua Topolsky How much, Leo? How much is it going to be?

Leo Laporte I have no idea. They don’t give me that.

Cali Lewis They even have like little customization. You can put a picture of your dog, for example, on the dash.

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah, I have the TWiT logo. When I get in the car, it’s like the Batmobile. I turn it on and the TWiT logo comes up.


Cali Lewis Right.

Clayton Morris The penguin is sitting there, going I’ve got control of your car.

[Sound Effect]

Leo Laporte MyFord Touch is slick, the voice command, the 911 safety features. I just – I am really thrilled with – two USB inputs, that’s kind of new; SD card slot in your car –

Joshua Topolsky I have one in my car.

Leo Laporte RCA A/V input jacks. You have an SD slot in your car?

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, it’s a Golf TDI.

Leo Laporte You are such a nerd.

Joshua Topolsky It’s weird. I was surprised by that SD card slot. I was like why does this exist?

Leo Laporte You’re such a nerd. You know I actually update the firmware in my Mustang with a USB key.

Joshua Topolsky What?

Clayton Morris You should try to update it with this.

Leo Laporte See what happens. Put tiger –

Joshua Topolsky You won’t be able to do one thing in the car at a time.

Leo Laporte I am going to put liger on – yeah, it’s full screen all of a sudden, I don’t understand.

Joshua Topolsky You can always steer at one direction at a time.

Leo Laporte Fortunately, Apple is not designing MyFord Touch. I want you to take a look at the great 2011 Ford Edge, just out. It is at your Ford dealer. Take a test drive this week. I think you will be very, very pleased.

And if you are in the market for a new car, don’t you dare, don’t you dare buy a new car without going to a Ford, Lincoln and Mercury dealer and listen to the Ford SYNC. It’s enough. I am telling you, it’s so good it’s enough to sell a car. There’s lots of other great features but SYNC is – there is nothing – Joshua, you’ve probably test – I don’t know why you bought a Volkswagen but –

Joshua Topolsky Well, long story,

Clayton Morris You watched the commercials.

Joshua Topolsky That’s an American car. You should definitely go to the dealer and look at it because we’ve got to support American company.

Leo Laporte The Volkswagen?

Joshua Topolsky No. Not me. I [ph] don’t have to (101:19) support American companies but everybody else.

Leo Laporte Really? No, in fact – I mean it sounds a little a bit jingoistic but in fact I am pretty proud to be driving an American car. And I think that it’s kind of a rebirth of the American industrial might. And I am just thrilled to see Ford doing so well.

Clayton Morris Yeah, Ford is the only company that didn’t accept any stimulus funds.

Leo Laporte No TARP funds, yep. I mean –

Joshua Topolsky I’d like to see a few more electric –

Cali Lewis And they are so into social media, which is awesome. I like to support that.

Leo Laporte Scott Monty over there; yeah, isn’t he great? And are you ready for electric because, Joshua, get ready – [ph] wait till (101:48) you see what Ford’s doing in electric? I don’t know if I am allowed to talk about it.

Joshua Topolsky Go ahead please.

Clayton Morris But can you please – let me pull it out of you because [ph] we are the (101:55) market for car. Is there an SUV that’s electric I’ll buy it. Can you spill it? I had a Ford Escape.

Joshua Topolsky Leo, look, you’re not a hardcore – you don’t have to worry about these embargos.

Leo Laporte I don’t actually. I don’t do NDAs or embargos.

Joshua Topolsky So just do it. Say it.

Clayton Morris You play it by your own rules.

Leo Laporte I play it by my own rules. You want the Dutch sandwich, I got one –

Clayton Morris Yeah, you play it by your own doctrines.

Leo Laporte I got one right here.

Joshua Topolsky You’re still in the issue. What’s the car?

Leo Laporte Let me put it this way. See me at South By Southwest. We will be – I think we’re going to be driving one of them. It’s not just a car. It’s a line.

Joshua Topolsky What are they?

Leo Laporte Oh, shut up, you’ll see.

Joshua Topolsky Come on, I am being a journalist, right. I am digging for the facts.

Leo Laporte What is that Steve Jobs says? I didn’t say that.

Joshua Topolsky And then I am going to do a first hands-on with the car as soon as I –

Leo Laporte Hands on a Hard Body. So the networks are blocking. And in fact, Mark Cuban, in a blog post says, I personally can’t think of anything stupider for the big broadcast networks to do than to give their shows to Google for free. He says why? Because they are finally getting billions of dollars in retransmission fees from the distributors, that’s I guess the cable companies. This is new money. It’s found money. It’s money they are fighting for. Just ask FOX and Cablevision what they think of each other this week. Well you know, Clayton, what a mess that was in New York.

Clayton Morris Yeah, everyone thinks I gave a speech the other night and everyone at the end – at the Q&A at the end, everyone was, when am I going to get FOX 5 back on my cable? I don’t know.

Leo Laporte Is that still off? Is that still – is it still not on the Cablevision?

Clayton Morris Yeah, I mean up until the other day, I don’t know what the update was. But they are still dealing with this, so.

Leo Laporte What a mess.

Clayton Morris Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky The craziest part of that is the blocking it from the subscribers, blocking to stream it –

Leo Laporte Hulu.

Clayton Morris Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky From the subscribers.

Leo Laporte But Hulu did that.

Joshua Topolsky Right. That to me is criminal. I mean that’s insane.

Leo Laporte I mean talk about net neutrality, you’re saying, oh, let me see what your IP address is. Oh, no, no, no, you’re using Cablevision Internet, no Hulu for you.

Joshua Topolsky I paid for the Internet. I paid for Hulu Plus or whatever –

Leo Laporte But you don’t get it because –

Joshua Topolsky You don’t like my IP, so I am actually not going to get the [indiscernible] (1:43:49).

Leo Laporte Exactly right. Now for anybody who said, oh, there is no problem with net neutrality. There is your proof right there. By the way, that was a brief blockage, they unblocked.

Joshua Topolsky It’s a problem without net neutrality.

Leo Laporte Yes, that’s what I’m saying, yeah, without some sort of protection. Net neutrality is a terrible name. It should be Internet discrimination. We don’t want Internet discrimination.

Joshua Topolsky That’s actually good. You should try to champion that. You want to go? You and I can try to champion that together.

Clayton Morris You want me to call Frank Lantz and have you work on some new words.

Leo Laporte New words, four years, I have been saying, it’s not a podcast, it’s a netcast.

Clayton Morris Oh, yeah.

Leo Laporte How well is that –

Cali Lewis How has that gone?

Joshua Topolsky How is that working out for you?

Leo Laporte Eh. All right. So he says, if Google were to go to those networks and offer them money per month for every buyer of a Google enabled device or TV, that would be different. But Google doesn’t do that. Google refuses to pay people to put it on Google TV. They don’t pay upfront for content as Netflix does. And so Mark Cuban says, Google has just handed Netflix the streaming universe. Netflix streaming content, this blows my mind, Netflix streaming content consumes 20% of download throughput weekday primetime hours.

Clayton Morris Come on.

Leo Laporte One-fifth of all network traffic during primetime hours on weekdays is Netflix.

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] (1:45:10) numbers from.

Clayton Morris That’s incredible.

Leo Laporte Mark Cuban –

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] [1:45:13] reported on that.

Leo Laporte Yeah, CNET reported on it. It says, Netflix grabs 20% of peak time U.S. traffic. This is from Sandvine. Sandvine is pretty reliable.

Cali Lewis I don’t doubt. I mean it’s high number to believe but still at the same time, how many of us are using Netflix? It’s huge.

Leo Laporte I watched five hours of Netflix last night – actually I didn’t because of the baseball game, but I normally do.

Cali Lewis Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky Where do you find five hours to watch anything?

Leo Laporte I get in bed and I like to watch great movies like Showgirls which is what I watched last night.

Joshua Topolsky Oh, you’re in bed watching Showgirls really, you don’t say.


Leo Laporte That is the worst piece of –

Cali Lewis No, it’s so much fun to watch though. Great movie just for the viewer.

Clayton Morris I did the same thing because I mean I love Netflix. So we watched every episode of Dexter.

Leo Laporte Dexter is a great choice.

Cali Lewis Love Dexter.

Clayton Morris And you got the new Star Trek on there and they are starting to get obviously some of the newer movies more quickly on there. But yeah, I did the same thing. One of the worst movies ever made was Sphere, you remember that?

Leo Laporte Oh, Sharon Stone.

Clayton Morris The only movie I ever walked out of a theatre on.

Leo Laporte But if you are in bed half asleep, it’s not a bad movie.

Clayton Morris Right.

Joshua Topolsky So go on.

Clayton Morris [Indiscernible] (1:46:16).

Cali Lewis I need to see this apparently.

Leo Laporte Showgirls is just –

Joshua Topolsky Kyle MacLachlan is great in that film.

Leo Laporte He’s such a – well –

Joshua Topolsky Well, Paul Verhoeven – it’s a Paul Verhoeven movie.

Leo Laporte It’s Paul Verhoeven.

Clayton Morris Self-indulgent writer, Paul Verhoeven.

Leo Laporte A little story – I’ll tell you little story. I was working for Ziff Davis in the television division. This was in the mid-90s when this movie was being made. I think it was ‘95. And we would go down once a week. Ziff Davis said, go down to MGM, and pretend we are going to do TV with them. So my job – I was getting paid to go down – to fly once a week to LA, have an office – I had an office at MGM where I would sit there going, I wish I had an iPad. I would sit there pretending that we were going to do TV with MGM. I don’t think anything ever came of it.

But I do remember the most embarrassing moment. The MGM executives came in and said, we were very excited about this new movie. We think it’s going to be a huge hit, Paul Verhoeven, Elizabeth Berkley from Saved by the Bell, Kyle MacLachlan from Dune...

Clayton Morris And we’ve got [ph] screech (1:47:15).

Leo Laporte And so they had – we’re in a screening room, right, with – it’s me and Gina Smith and a bunch of executives. And they screen the scene where Elizabeth Berkley is dry humping some guy, okay, this is the scene.

Clayton Morris My favorite scene.

Leo Laporte And my god, I mean I am there with these executives. I am like – I am mortified. I am bright – my jaw – I said, this is – what are you thinking? This is the first NC-17 movie. This was going to be the big deal where the movie companies finally did adult movies with major stars. Oh, my god.

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] (1:47:48) remotely good –

Clayton Morris You were so outraged by that that you put it in your – in Netflix instantly.

Joshua Topolsky And years later you are watching it back.

Leo Laporte No, I never saw the movie. I was outraged. I never saw the movie. And then I am going through Netflix, I go, oh, there is Showgirls, I remember that. I wonder what that movie is.

Clayton Morris Oh, it is terrible.

Cali Lewis Last night was the first time you watched it? No?

Leo Laporte Yes.

Cali Lewis Really?

Leo Laporte I didn’t finish it. But I mean I was stunned.

Joshua Topolsky Has anybody ever finished it actually?

Clayton Morris Right, I mean –

Leo Laporte It’s the most horrible movie –

Cali Lewis Oh, yeah, several times.

Joshua Topolsky Oh, really, Cali –

Leo Laporte It says on the Netflix thing it’s a cult – they say, on the Netflix thing now, it was a terrible movie, everybody hated it, but it’s a cult classic now.

Cali Lewis You have to watch it.

Leo Laporte Is it because it’s so bad?

Clayton Morris I think the guys from Mystery Science Theater, Mike Nelson – the guy’s over RiffTrax –

Leo Laporte Right.

Clayton Morris Maybe they – I think they’ve done the Showgirls, you might want to go check it out –

Leo Laporte Oh, I have to watch that.

Clayton Morris Hilarious guy, Mike Nelson from Mystery Science Theater, he has a new thing called

Leo Laporte Excellent.

Clayton Morris And they have – I think they have Showgirls as one of the choices.

Joshua Topolsky I got to see that. I have to see that.

Clayton Morris You have to – you download the MP3 and you play it along with the movie.

Leo Laporte Oh, okay. Okay. So I would watch the Netflix – see, I am telling you, Netflix has got it right. And you said – Engadget said, Joshua, that Netflix is in fact going to do, going to test streaming-only.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean – look, I subscribed to Netflix. And I either have a disc sitting here that’s been here for like six months.

Leo Laporte Right. I never use a disc.

Joshua Topolsky I don’t even remember the last time I got a disc sent to me. So it makes a lot of sense.

Leo Laporte With great flicks like Showgirls on streaming, who needs the disc?

Joshua Topolsky That was great – great American classics like Showgirls.

Clayton Morris Is it Sarbanes-Oxley thing, Leo? I mean is that why they are still have to keep the discs coming in the mail. I mean I can’t –

Leo Laporte You think SOX?

Clayton Morris Is it? I mean why else would – I mean because that 8.95 a month and just to get that one disc that like Josh, I have I think City of God, the DVD which is supposed to be a fantastic movie on DVD, I just still can’t get myself to put it into a DVD player to play it. It’s sitting under a pile of dust.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, I think I have the first episode of – or the first disc for Twin Peaks: Season 2, which I have yet to –

Clayton Morris You are the one that has it. I have been waiting for it.

Leo Laporte Waiting, there is only one.

Joshua Topolsky I am sorry. I didn’t mean to monopolize –

Leo Laporte All right, this is it –

Cali Lewis It does make sense though when you have – because you can’t get everything on streaming with Netflix.

Leo Laporte Right. Well, more and more you can.

Cali Lewis So you need something you really want to see, you need the DVDs.

Leo Laporte More and more you can.

Cali Lewis And they also increased prices to – what, a dollar more?

Leo Laporte A dollar more for Blu-ray.

Joshua Topolsky That’s – so is there a reason that they have Hulu Plus, I mean I have Hulu...

Leo Laporte That’s a waste of money.

Joshua Topolsky And I get so pissed off about seeing that 9.99 on my…

Leo Laporte Well you heard the rumor [Multiple Speakers] (110:12). You heard the rumor they are going to cut that in half though to 4.99.

Cali Lewis It only make sense, it was obvious that that was going to happen I mean.

Leo Laporte Yeah, it’s overpriced.

Cali Lewis That was way too much.

Leo Laporte And there is ads on it.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, but at least you can see stuff that you need to see, like we watched the whole first season of Modern Family, I had never seen the show before.

Leo Laporte That’s very funny, isn’t it? It’s a British [indiscernible] (110:32) on television.

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (110:33) you couldn’t do it anywhere else, either you buy it on iTunes for like 50 bucks or you spend $10 a month and you have to sit through a couple of commercials, but it is better than sitting through commercials during an actual TV show.

Clayton Morris So, here is the problem Josh, it wasn’t [indiscernible] (110:42) but it’s not worst thing in the world.

Leo Laporte But it wasn’t on Hulu Plus.

Clayton Morris [indiscernible] (110:49) it was.

Joshua Topolsky No, I went looking for it, it wasn’t there. [indiscernible] (1:50:52).

Leo Laporte I bought a season on Amazon, if I had known it was on Hulu Plus, I’d pay for Hulu Plus.

Joshua Topolsky It was on Hulu Plus, I think they expired it when they started the new season.

Leo Laporte Oh, they expired it. All right, so let’s play a game, let’s all go to our Netflix queue and see who has the movie that’s been out the longest.

Joshua Topolsky Okay.

Leo Laporte Actually I am going to win this, I may not lose it because I just got – I just finally gave up and send a bunch of movies in. I had a…

Joshua Topolsky [Ph] I am going to check that right now (111:16).

Leo Laporte My oldest movie is September 23, Where the Wild Things Are, that’s not so bad, that’s not even a month yet.

Clayton Morris What kind of…

Cali Lewis Is there a place that you look at that?

Leo Laporte Yeah, you look at your queue.

Clayton Morris I love how your choices are in C-17 movies.

Leo Laporte Stop it.

Joshua Topolsky What’s your date, what’s your date?

Leo Laporte My oldest is 9/23, that’s not so bad.

Joshua Topolsky All right, Clayton what do you have?

Clayton Morris Shipped on – City of God is still sitting at home shipped on 10/05.

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s nothing, that’s two weeks.

Joshua Topolsky I thought you guys…

Cali Lewis Oh, we’re talking about when they were shipped, I thought…

Leo Laporte No, your oldest DVD that you still have on the shelf to how long have you had it for?

Cali Lewis 9/18 is the last time.

Leo Laporte Oh, you guys are – we are all pretty good.

Joshua Topolsky I got 3/23. I am telling you, I was waiting – I wanted Twin Peaks, I got the first season because we have never seen it. I sort of watching it I wanted to get the second, whatever the second season…

Leo Laporte Seven months [ph] he’s had (112:07) Twin Peaks.

Clayton Morris You are the one.

Joshua Topolsky It’s – season two just [indiscernible] (112:11).

Clayton Morris You are the one.

Leo Laporte You know why…

Joshua Topolsky I swear to God, there’s only disc out there.

Leo Laporte There is no…

Clayton Morris Are you serious?

Leo Laporte You know why, there is no – yeah, just send it to him. Just eliminate the middleman. There is no compelling reason to watch season two. It’s like, okay, I get it.

Joshua Topolsky Had enough. I am sure it’s going to be great, okay.

Cali Lewis I don’t even know what Twin Peaks is.

Leo Laporte What?

Joshua Topolsky 1993, so…

Leo Laporte You don’t know what Twin Peaks is?

Joshua Topolsky Classic…

Clayton Morris Wow, what? Did Cali just say she doesn’t know what Twin Peaks is?

Leo Laporte You know why, she is 22 years old. She doesn’t know anything.

Cali Lewis I am not, I’m older than 22.

Leo Laporte All right, 25. She has no idea what happened before 1990.

Joshua Topolsky Are you serious?

Cali Lewis I have no idea, actually I grew up with a really strict family and my stepfather was really, really strict. So I didn’t even have a TV in my house for my growing up years. So I have an excuse.

Leo Laporte And he would never let you watch Twin Peaks.

Joshua Topolsky And I made the recommendation…

Clayton Morris Especially with the Log Lady intros, you would not want to…

Joshua Topolsky I am going to recommend you that you go on your Netflix and you...

Leo Laporte She can’t, you still have it, you dick.

Cali Lewis Yeah.

Joshua Topolsky Season one, season one.

Cali Lewis Watch it and send it back.

Joshua Topolsky You are going to get season one on there but you got to go do it now [indiscernible] (113:19).

Leo Laporte She is scared, wrapped in plastic.

Cali Lewis All right, I am doing it right in a second.

Clayton Morris I like it’s actually happening this moment.

Leo Laporte This must be where [indiscernible] (113:28) go when they die. Isn’t that Kyle MacLachlan in that too?

Clayton Morris Yeah, Kyle MacLachlan is in that.

Joshua Topolsky Lot of great creepy movies for shows.

Leo Laporte My mind is blowing, this is the Kyle MacLachlan version.

Joshua Topolsky So he speaks to the way we are watching the stuff, you can jump in your [indiscernible] (113:46) that’s why I come back to the sort of the à la carte thing and I think the way that people sample things right and you go through your Netflix, yeah I feel like I am going to watch Cake Boss tonight or Saw II or if you’re Leo, Wild Things 2 straight to DVD.

Leo Laporte Not Wild Things, wait a minute now I understand what you are saying, not Denise Richards Wild Things, Where the Wild Things Are, the Maurice Sendak children’s movie, you pervert.

Joshua Topolsky Sure, sure Leo. You got the [ph] Dutch Sandwich (114:11), you got Wild Things, you got a…

Leo Laporte Although come to thing about Wild Things was a pretty good movie.

Clayton Morris Yeah. [indiscernible] (114:11) the pool scene.

Leo Laporte The pool scene.

Joshua Topolsky Was Wild Things written by Joe Eszterhas, he is the guy who did Showgirls? Did he also write Wild Things?

Clayton Morris I think he did, I think you are right.

Joshua Topolsky Did he?

Clayton Morris That would be an [indiscernible] (114:30)

Leo Laporte All right. Let’s fast forward to the year 2010 where Aaron Sorkin writes a movie, a movie, kind of loosely based on Facebook. Finally, a man named Mark Zuckerberg who actually lived that sees the movie. He has asked at the [indiscernible] (114:48) Startup Conference, what he thought of the Facebook movie?

Cali Lewis One of the biggest ones.

[Background Audio]

Leo Laporte I love that, I think that’s a really great way to end this show.

Joshua Topolsky That’s the most eloquent I have ever seen him be and I have to say his point is…

Leo Laporte He is right on.

Joshua Topolsky …really accurate. I think that the perception of, I mean you can – look you have ever seen Aaron Sorkin talk about these characters, you can tell that he has a tremendous disdain for people who do the kinds of things that Zuckerberg did and the people around him do and do you think there is a real disconnect there? He is right about what the perception from the inside versus the outside and he thinks like of course he is motivated by his hatred for women, that’s why he started Facebook. That’s a very childish way to think about why somebody would start something to work on something like Facebook.

Clayton Morris Yeah, and I interviewed Ben Mezrich I think two weeks ago and of course he is the author of The Accidental Billionaires which probably everyone here has read or listened to on Audible which is a fantastic…

Leo Laporte Yes, it is a good Audible book actually.

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] trend is also…(117:07)

Clayton Morris Yeah, absolutely. And he said that Zuckerberg does have that sort of singular focus about things and of course back then or early on he was saying that he talked about the movie as complete fiction, or he said it was fiction and sure there were lots of parts of it that were absolutely completely fabricated, like the girlfriend issue at the beginning of the movie that he is after some sort of personal vendetta which was certainly not true, but I think this is the best thing from a PR standpoint that’s happened to Zuckerberg. I think he looks better as a result of it.

Leo Laporte As it turns out I think he was worried obviously and everybody was worried that it was really going to hurt them. I don’t think it did, I think it’s…

Clayton Morris I know it raised the profile of Facebook to a place that was even higher than they were already.

Leo Laporte And it’s a good movie but it has no more to do with Mark Zuckerberg than Citizen Kane has to do with William Randolph Hearst.

Clayton Morris [indiscernible] (118:01) have a lot to do with Hearst though, some kind of great [indiscernible] (118:03).

Leo Laporte You see that’s the problem, people still think he was in love with Rosebud, it’s a sled, it’s a sled.

Joshua Topolsky Rosebud was involved in the [ph] Dutch sandwich (118:14) I believe.

Leo Laporte Actually, after we are off the air I will tell you what Rosebud really is.

Clayton Morris I don’t like the sound of it.

Leo Laporte It’s a little adult.

Cali Lewis Make sure I am hung up, I don’t know if I want to be involved in that.

Joshua Topolsky [Indiscernible] (118:26).

Leo Laporte I received this note that I should say to one of you, who should I say this to. I should say to Clayton. I should say to Joshua, bingo.

Joshua Topolsky Oh, that’s very cute. Who gave you that note?

Leo Laporte I touched a nerve, did I?

Joshua Topolsky Do you know we played [indiscernible] (118:44) Engadget Podcast Bingo.

Clayton Morris Bingo, Engadget Bingo.

Joshua Topolsky And apparently I didn’t really understand how Bingo was played I guess. I didn’t know how it work and…

Leo Laporte A sad, troubled loner, aren’t you Joshua?

Joshua Topolsky Kind of, yes, absolutely.

Leo Laporte Where is the Engadget podcast, can we find it on

Joshua Topolsky we have a podcast tab, you can listen to all of our latest podcasts and even I have to – we have to do that business deal where we get the podcast on to your network.

Leo Laporte Please, because I love the show and I would love to broadcast it.

Joshua Topolsky We should get the Engadget show on to your, we should get it on to TWiT as well.

Leo Laporte Deal, and if you ever want to do a first look on TWiT, please.

Joshua Topolsky Yeah, with hands on, first hands on it.

Leo Laporte Yeah, first hands on…

Joshua Topolsky I would like do a first hands on of TWiT, is that possible?

Leo Laporte Yes, you can touch me all you want.

Joshua Topolsky Let’s do that.

Leo Laporte But no [ph] Dutch Sandwich (119:32). Cali Lewis is at GeekBeat.TV and you’ve got new shows, you are expanding.

Cali Lewis Yes, so, we not only launched a blog so that you can get more information all day everyday outside of the video shows that I do three times a week on GeekBeat. We also launched WebBeat with a new host. Her name is Pelpina and she’s gorgeous, she’s funny, she’s really sweet and that is going extremely, extremely well. So, we’re very happy about that. It’s all web focused, interesting websites, useful websites, awesome viral videos, interesting things that are happening on the web. So, check it out WebBeat.TV.

Leo Laporte Thank you, Cali, and of course, Clayton, you can watch wear his Giants uniform on Fox & Friends tomorrow.

Clayton Morris Yeah, no, no. Maybe next year.

Leo Laporte You’ve already done your [indiscernible] (120:24).

Clayton Morris This Friday on Gadgets-n-Games, I’ll…

Leo Laporte All right.

Clayton Morris I’ll wear it for you.

Leo Laporte No, no. You know what? The [indiscernible] (120:28) said, look it’s good for you but I don’t – you’ve done it, you’ve done it and you’re done. Our bet is off. You have satisfied it in full.

Clayton Morris Ah, thank you so much. And I try to – yeah, congratulation to Giants.

Leo Laporte Enough [indiscernible] (120:49).

Clayton Morris And we’re doing a big giveaway, can I mention a big giveaway?

Leo Laporte Please.

Clayton Morris You love Sonos, don’t you love Sonos?

Leo Laporte I have – I have now five Sonos ZonePlayers and a sixth on order. I love them. And they are everywhere.

Clayton Morris You’re like Josh. You can’t get discs too, all the Sonoses are gone because of you.

Leo Laporte [ph] I buy in-house (120:55).

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (120:56) to Leo’s house.

Leo Laporte I’m buying them, I am not renting them. I love them. We just got a hot tub, we are going to have Sonos out there everywhere.

Clayton Morris I love the Sonos. We’re doing on my Labor of Love. It’s a podcast I do with my best friend every week. It’s called the Grizzly Bear Egg Cafe and we are giving two Sonos ZonePlayer S5s away.

Leo Laporte That’s a good prize.

Clayton Morris Thanks to our friends at Sonos. They’ve been a long time sponsor of our show. They are giving them away and all you need to do is follow the podcast on Twitter. Just Grizzly Bear Cafe on Twitter and it’s so easy to enter but two of them, that’s $800 because you can’t really experience Sonos with just one in a room. You know you need to have…

Leo Laporte That’s the problem with Sonos. You’ve got really end up and I keep buying more and more [indiscernible] (121:36) everywhere.

Clayton Morris [indiscernible] (121:34) this house.

Leo Laporte You know what I…

Clayton Morris I am like I need to buy five Sonos for this house.

Leo Laporte But it’s great and I use it for my alarm – they don’t advertise on this show and I think I’m really upset to hear that they advertise in your show but they – because I am the Sonos fan. No, but I use it for my alarm clock because the Sonos app on the iPad or the iPhone you can set the alarms and I listened to Pandora. I mean it’s fantastic.

Clayton Morris I just started using the alarm clock for the first time last week [indiscernible] (122:00).

Leo Laporte I didn’t even know it existed.

Clayton Morris I didn’t either. I get up at 5:00 – 4:00 in the morning to go and do Fox & Friends and I set it – you can set it for seven days a week…

Leo Laporte Yep, fantastic.

Clayton Morris …you can pick two days a week, you can pick it one day and it will just do [indiscernible] (122:09).

Leo Laporte It’s the best for [indiscernible] (122:11) ever and because you can listen to Internet radio, you could have a radio station as well. I mean you can listen whatever you want on it, I love it.

Clayton Morris Yeah. And hey – and your buddy, Tom Merritt is going to be a guest on my show host of Tech News Today.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Clayton Morris He’s going to be a host – he’s going to be a guest on my show on Friday coming up this next week.

Leo Laporte He’s actually waiting in the wings right now. His show [indiscernible] (122:28) coming up.

Clayton Morris All right.

Cali Lewis Oh and hey I have to apologize, I know that my audio is a little bad. So, before we get off just, sorry, my headset is not working and I don’t know what to say…

Leo Laporte But, but…

Cali Lewis I never get [indiscernible] feedback (122:38).

Leo Laporte But Cali, you have the best backdrop of all the people.

Cali Lewis I know, it’s a nice brick wall [indiscernible] (122:43).

Joshua Topolsky [indiscernible] (122:44).

Leo Laporte Yeah, she looks like she is at the punch line or something.

Joshua Topolsky Cali, actually, it doesn’t sound that bad. So don’t feel too bad.

Cali Lewis Okay, okay. Good.

Joshua Topolsky That sounds pretty [indiscernible] (122:54).

Leo Laporte You guys are great. This is a lot of fun. I’m going to end on a sad note. The Sony cassette walkman is finally, finally [ph] tying (123:05)…

Cali Lewis Cheers for all.

Leo Laporte I remember buying mine. When did they come out, Joshua? It’s like ’85, I think. I remember buying it…

Joshua Topolsky ’79.

Leo Laporte ’79?

Joshua Topolsky I think it’s before that.

Leo Laporte I remember when it came out –

Joshua Topolsky Was it ’79 or ’81?

Clayton Morris ’79? It wasn’t ’79.

Joshua Topolsky Okay.

Leo Laporte I went to Macy’s and it was – it was like $400, it’s really expensive. I remembered buying the blue one, with a button that you press that I thought would be like you could talk into it now. It just muted it.

So we’ll end with a Sony ad. This is straight from to say farewell to the Sony walkman. Thank you, everybody for joining us and we’ll see you next time. East Meets West is coming up next. Another TWiT is in the can. Now, ladies and gentlemen, the [indiscernible] in the midst (123:45).


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