TWiT 215/Transcript

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Episode 215


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This is TWiT: This Week in Tech, Episode 215 for October 5th, 2009: Who Needs This Crap?

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Leo Laporte It’s time for TWiT, This Week in Tech, the show that covers all the things that have happened in the week of Tech – well not all of them. Like, really not even a large portion. In fact frankly, we just cover whatever we the hell want to cover. And despite the administrations of Mr. John C. Dvorak, who tries to keep us moving, tries to keep us covering Tech. What is that, is that your, that’s – John’s showing us a picture of his shed.

John C. Dvorak It’s my new house.

Leo Laporte What are you, a gold miner?

John C. Dvorak It’s my 401k.

Leo Laporte It’s all that’s left. if you want to find out – are you going to blog that? Why do you have a snapshot of a shanty?

John C. Dvorak I took this somewhere in Wyoming.

Leo Laporte It’s a great picture. It looks like a ghost town.

John C. Dvorak Actually the – after I – I sent you the photoshopped version, it’s quite nice. I’m using it as a background for a new thing I am doing for Mevio called The Tech Grouch.

Leo Laporte Do you sit on the porch on a rocking chair with a shotgun?

John C. Dvorak I got a beard. I got the…

Leo Laporte Hey, I’m John C. Dvorak, the Tech Grouch.

John C. Dvorak No, no, no, I’m not John C. Dvorak. This is somebody else.

Leo Laporte Aren’t you tired of being the cranky, grouchy guy? Don’t you want to be like…

John C. Dvorak You?

Leo Laporte Yeah, like me. Mr. Nice Guy.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, I do. I have always wanted to be like you, Leo.

Leo Laporte Also here, Wil Harris from Hi Wil, how are you today?

Wil Harris Hello, I’m very well, thank you. I have got my glass of port and I am very happy.

Leo Laporte Oh, that looks good.

John C. Dvorak A little late in the evening for port?

Wil Harris It looks nice, doesn’t it? A little Tawny ten-year.

Leo Laporte Ten-year Tawny port. It’s like show-and-tell on TWiT today. And we were supposed to have Frank Barnako on the line and he’s – I think – this happens all the time. People are about to appear on the show and then their internet goes out. You think it’s a conspiracy of some kind?

John C. Dvorak They’re out to get you, Leo.

Wil Harris It’s the stress.

Leo Laporte Maybe just, yeah just like they never used Skype and then as soon as they start using a lot of bandwidth…

Wil Harris Yeah. The whole internet just goes kerplunk.

Leo Laporte Kablooey! It’s too bad, because Frank wrote a blog post that I thought was very interesting, why bloggers and podcasters should be happy about the idea that Comcast might be buying 51% of NBC Universal.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, well, I’ll tell you what. My experience of not getting bumped from the show has been that I watched it, and you’re talking about – and nobody picks up, tries to – I don’t know what happens. But he’s probably listening right now and he probably will get back onto the show within the next 15 minutes.

Leo Laporte I hope he will. Do you think first of all that this rumor which in fact Comcast is – well, maybe it’s one of those non-denial denials. But it seems like they’ve denied it.

Wil Harris No, it’s a total non-denial denial.

Leo Laporte You think…

Wil Harris Because the first story that aired was that Comcast was buying NBC Universal 100%, and the non-denial denial was, ‘that story is not accurate.’

John C. Dvorak Right.

Wil Harris It’s like, there’s a difference between not accurate and not true.

Leo Laporte So you think it’s true, they are going to have a controlling interest…

John C. Dvorak I think it’s true, too.

Leo Laporte Is this – my first thought is that this is the way Comcast can keep companies like – they can’t buy everybody, but NBC has been very, very active, first with Hulu and then with their own site in putting shows online. Companies like Comcast hate that, because it means people can watch those shows using cheap internet access instead of expensive premium cable access.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but they’re using the internet, the so-called ‘cheap’ internet access is actually expensive Comcast internet net access generally. And you need to get some bandwidth if you want to watch TV on your – through the internet.

Leo Laporte Yeah, but Comcast, what do they get for internet access? 50 bucks? But your cable bill is I bet you well over a hundred bucks because of all the premium stuff that they want you to...

John C. Dvorak I use a satellite dish.

Leo Laporte Ah. How much is your satellite?

John C. Dvorak I think 50 bucks, something like that.

Leo Laporte I just – my sense is – and maybe I’m wrong – that the cable companies hate the idea of people just using their bandwidth.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but they’re not idiots. They know it’s a done deal.

Leo Laporte I guess it is a done deal, isn’t it? Nothing they can do about it.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, so they got to take defensive measures and I think this is a good one.

Wil Harris Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Wil Harris Yeah, I guess if you feel like the entire world is migrating from cable to IPTV, as a cable company you kind of feel like you need a stake in TV.

Leo Laporte Yeah, you and I, Wil, are doing IPTV plays, basically. So I love the idea. I think the thing that gives us a, I think a little bit of a leg up is that – and this is always true when businesses change dramatically like this – that the old line business can’t afford to cannibalize their business and so…

Wil Harris You can’t – it’s a massive opportunity, because for smaller players coming into the market, there’s no opportunity cost.

Leo Laporte Right.

Wil Harris Everything is upside. Whereas if you’re an incumbent, then there’s a lot of downside to go with a potential amount of upside. There’s a lot of people right now talking about – whether it’s the New York Times, with all the recent pay wars, et cetera – is the internet going to make up for the shortfall in traditional revenue streams? Or is the question of – for people like you is, well, I don’t have a traditional revenue stream to protect. The internet is just all money, it’s all money, all the time.

Leo Laporte I want to apologize because I gave a speech on Friday. I thought it was just a small group of people and a lot of them were young people or people who were kind of trying to figure out how they can make this move to the internet. And so I wanted to reassure them, and I was talking a little bit about TechTV and how it failed because advertisers really didn’t have faith in broadcasting intended for intelligent audiences. Advertisers thought, intelligent people are going to watch the ads, they’re just going to decide what to buy because they’re intelligent, we can’t influence them. And I wanted to make the point to these young people and these people in transition that in fact you could do a smart network – TWiT’s been nothing but aimed at intelligent people – and make a living. So I told them what we – kind of our revenue situation, and of course that became a big story all over the internet as if – like I’m rolling in dough or something.

John C. Dvorak You are. Sounds like it to me.

Leo Laporte Well there’s costs, there are taxes. It’s not, I didn’t write myself a million dollar check last month.

Wil Harris Actually, Leo, it’s really, really funny because I did – ironically I did a talk at Tech Crunch, a Tech Crunch event in London a couple of weeks ago at which I mentioned that it was really, really hard to get a sense of the new media world in Britain, because nobody really talks about money. It’s a very British thing about, nobody likes to talk about money. Nobody likes to mention money and…

Frank Barnako Hello, Leo. Hello, Leo. I am here.

Leo Laporte We hear you Frank, hang on.

Wil Harris And – I mentioned that in America, talking about money is a much more open thing and everybody tries to help each other and everybody tries to be free with information in the spirit of entrepreneurship and of course this thing came out a week later and I was like…

Leo Laporte Yeah, I think that proved the point.

Wil Harris See? See?

John C. Dvorak By the way, you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me that I was talking to somebody from England the other day and they were buying a house around here and I said, so what did you pay for it? Oh, by the way, in California – I told them – I said in California, we tell people what we paid for our houses and what we sold them for, this is what we do.

Leo Laporte That’s right. We got no, we have no shame or pride. I know it’s gauche to talk about money, and I wouldn’t normally – I wouldn’t walk up to somebody…

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but beyond – yeah, it’s gauche in an old sense. But that old sense is a structured management style that was designed to keep people from actually knowing what other people made…

Leo Laporte That’s true.

John C. Dvorak So you could screw them.

Leo Laporte That’s really true. I tell my employees this, don’t you dare tell anybody else what you make, because it’ll just cause jealousy and you will all want more money.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, so you’re management now?

Leo Laporte Yeah, management now. Anyway, hey Frank, we got Frank Barnako. Thank you Frank, I really appreciate it. I don’t know what happened there. It looks like we lost you.

Frank Barnako All it took was a shutdown.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Restarting always helps. So it’s…

Frank Barnako I am kind of laughing because my father-in-law is a Windows guy and I’m always tweaking him.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Frank Barnako So I’m hoping he is not watching.

Leo Laporte But it wasn’t a Mac? You are using Windows 7, right Frank? Yeah.

John C. Dvorak Too late.

Leo Laporte Frank, you’ve been on TWiT before but not for a long, long time.

Frank Barnako Right, long time ago, yeah.

Leo Laporte It’s about time we got you back, go ahead.

Frank Barnako I was just going to say, it was back when there was, I think there was only one show. And now look at you.

Leo Laporte Really? Is that true?

Frank Barnako Now look at you.

Leo Laporte That’s kind of amazing.

Frank Barnako It may have been MacBreak.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak I thought TWiT was first. So let’s get to that article that Frank wrote.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I am glad we got you on, because we really wanted to talk about this NBC-Comcast deal, which, in your absence we have concluded is in fact a real deal despite Comcast’s non-denial denial. You agree, Frank, that this is probably what’s going to happen?

Frank Barnako Well I think that Comcast certainly wants to do it. They tried to do Disney for what, X number of billion dollars a few years ago.

Leo Laporte Who hasn’t tried to do Disney?

Frank Barnako The Comcast people clearly want to have content and as I put on the blog and as I was thinking about it, all these folks – and I didn’t say you, Leo, but clearly you’re the archetype out there, you’re the model. And I think that Comcast is going to want to have more content available to sell to its subscribers and to other subscribers. And the best way to generate more dollars is to have content that can’t be gotten anyplace else. And I think podcasters and blog-casters have a real opportunity here that Comcast will look for more and more content. And god knows, the internet is producing it right and left in those niches that each of us cares about, although they are different niches and they add up to a big audience.

Leo Laporte You don’t think it’s a defensive move from Comcast that they’re just saying, ‘boy, we’re going to get and eat alive?’ Because really, Comcast’s business is purely a delivery mechanism. Although they did have Liberty Media, they have in the past toyed with content creation. In fact, they spun it out, I think that they – it seems they’re a little schizo. They can’t decide if they want to be in content creation or just distribution. But it seems to me now that it’s clear that distribution is not where the money’s going to be. It’s going to be creating content, yes?

Frank Barnako I believe that’s true. And as a content creator, I and you both know that distribution is critical. It’s the lifeblood of anybody who’s making content. And Comcast has that big hype, and they avoid ending up being just a pipe if they have extra-special content. Again, I’m thinking about the Roku Box and how Netflix is putting itself into various places. So it is a content option. And I think Comcast is clearly thinking down the road, yes, they want to have as many subscribers as they can, they’ve got, what, something like 22 million now. And I just think the more content they got, the more subscribers they’re going to have. And the more content they’ve got that they can sell, that should make podcasters a little bit of dollars.

Leo Laporte I’d like to see that. Wil, you were going to say something? I mean you’re in this too.

Wil Harris Yeah, I mean I have to say, I think in the long run, the money is not actually in content. It’s actually in distribution…

Leo Laporte Really?

Wil Harris …and aggregation.

Leo Laporte Oh, in aggregation, like what Channel [ph] Flick (12:52) does? As an aggregator?

Wil Harris Well, I think content – what we’re seeing is an explosion of content as you’ve talked about. Content has never been – there’s never been more content, and content’s never been cheaper or easier to produce. And that leads to a proliferation and that leads to a devaluation in the marketplace. You’re already seeing the number of TV commissions go down, the budgets for TV commissions go down, and that’s going to keep going down and keep going down and keep going down.

I think when you look at what – where value is in this kind of new economy, you have to look at what’s scarce. Because we’re looking at – proliferation creates scarcity, right? The irony. The proliferation of media online and the massive amount of media online creates a scarcity in terms of large audiences, because everybody’s watching lots of different things. Which means that the audience for each thing is smaller. So actually the value in this kind of new economy is in the aggregation of large audiences, not in the production of content, which is – kind of becomes a – I think of little value above…

Leo Laporte It’s fungible, it’s a commodity.

Wil Harris Yes.

Leo Laporte John, do you agree? I mean you worked for Mevio?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, well…

Leo Laporte And I mean they’re the first podcast aggregator ever.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, and the model has changed since I got there a couple of years ago. I would say that the model has changed six, seven times. No, seriously. But I mean not for the worst. I mean every time they look at the model and they say, you know what we should do is this and what we should do is this and what we should do is this, and they keep changing it…

Leo Laporte You got to be nimble in this world because…

John C. Dvorak Nobody knows what the end model is, because everybody is experimenting. I mean you have an operation that is…

Leo Laporte We’re making it up as we go along.

John C. Dvorak It’s a one-man show that could go on forever. It may have to change, it may not, or maybe someone would just buy you. Folks at Mevio now, they have so much aggregation going on, they’re doing these split deals with all these different producers. Some people make quite a bit of money. Not your kind of money, but they’re making a lot of money.

Leo Laporte They said – in fact, I think Adam Curry said that he had three podcasts making half a million to a million a year.

John C. Dvorak I know of a couple making over 200,000. I don’t look at those numbers. But I know at least two that make over 200,000. I think Cali Lewis makes…

Leo Laporte I’m sure Cali must make that much, yeah.

John C. Dvorak I think she makes a quarter of a million dollars.

Leo Laporte I don’t know if that’s the money to her and I don’t know if Adam’s…

John C. Dvorak No, no. This would be the money to her.

Leo Laporte Okay, because I think Adam was probably quoting the revenue, so – yeah they split it. So she was quoting the revenue, total revenue, and then the amount of money to her is half that. But – and she only does a few shows.

John C. Dvorak And she’s not the big money winner. There are two others shows that I’ve never even heard of…

Leo Laporte They are bigger.

John C. Dvorak Yeah. But they are not about tech, they’re like – I don’t know what they’re about…

Leo Laporte See, I cannot…

Frank Barnako I think Wil and…

Leo Laporte Go ahead, Frank.

Frank Barnako I think Wil and John are making the same point I was writing about and thinking about. Comcast is not going to want to have onesy-twosy aggregator, onesy-twosy podcasts and video shows on a long menu. It is just as you’ve done with the TWiT network, it’s a 24x7 wheel of tech content. You give me a 24x7 wheel of digital photography content and I’m going to watch that, I’m going to pay 3 or $4 a month for that channel. So the person who puts together, as you’ve done, the kind of niche programming into a format that is easily handled by a cable company the distribution is –no they don’t have to worry about whether all the lines are working, whether the shows have arrived on time. But they in effect, they do just become the distribution, they become the marketer, they make a piece selling it to subscribers, and that aggregator who has put it all together, that’s the one that has the right opportunity.

Leo Laporte Now, here’s – I’m going to throw a monkey wrench in this. Go ahead, go ahead, John.

John C. Dvorak Well, I was just going to say – well, actually throw the monkey wrench in, I have a plug, David Spark wrote a really good column about making money as a podcaster that I want to plug.

Leo Laporte But he left me out of that. I felt a little hurt, to be honest.

John C. Dvorak Did he? Oh, you saw the article?

Leo Laporte Yeah, it was a very good article and that’s where I get that 500,000 to a million figure from.

John C. Dvorak Oh, well I think he was remiss to leave you out, but I…

Leo Laporte That’s because – you know why he left? He asked me many times to be on TWiT and I don’t have – he’s a PR guy, I don’t put PR guys on TWiT.

John C. Dvorak Oh right. He probably left you on purpose. He snubbed you.

Leo Laporte He snubbed, I’m snubbed! You know how easy I am to offend?

Frank Barnako Screw you, Spark! Screw you, Spark!

Leo Laporte David is very funny, great comic, old friend, worked together at TechTV. And I am sure it was just a mistake.

John C. Dvorak Anyway, he has these – the nine models are – and they’re the most accurate models I’ve ever seen put in one article.

Leo Laporte No, it’s an excellent article. I highly recommend it. Is that on his blog? Where does that get posted?

John C. Dvorak It’s on Social Masher Mash-ups or some Masher Mania or something, I don’t know what it is. But look up David Spark podcasting and you’ll probably find it.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I thought it was an excellent article. So here’s my monkey wrench. I’ve been reading Accidental Billionaires, which is the Ben Mezrich book. It’s going to be a movie any minute now, Justin Timberlake playing Mark Zuckerberg. So the story – it’s, I think, a highly fictionalized story of the founding of Facebook. But it did – kind of a light came on for me, and I’m sorry if I am slow to this party. But it’s very obvious to me that going forward, advertisers are no longer going to be satisfied with scattershot advertising, the kind they get even on this show a little bit. They’re going to want to know more and more about the people they advertize to. And this is what Google and Facebook offer them. They can say, “I want the five best, biggest dentists in Muncie. I want the one person who’s going to buy our big screen TV in Petaluma, California.” They can be very, very specific. Which makes their ads incredibly more efficient. And I think platforms like Facebook and Google are going to be a problem for even internet broadcasters, because we just can’t get that granular. What do you think?

John C. Dvorak I think we lost Frank for one thing. But

Leo Laporte We’ll get him back.

John C. Dvorak I have a – this is the Holy Grail of advertisers.

Leo Laporte Exactly, that’s what they want.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, well, it’s not achievable. I think it’s a wishful thinking situation. That’s why you have to do advertising in the first place, because you can never...

Leo Laporte Well, don’t Facebook and Google give them exactly that?

Wil Harris Well, I think Facebook and Google do give you that kind of granularity, and they do give you that kind of access. What they don’t give you, either yet or conceivably at all, is any kind of nice way of exploiting that. I mean advertising as a culture, as an industry, is about touchy-feely kind of reaching into your emotions and motivating you to do stuff.

Leo Laporte No, that’s what – see, this is where you’re wrong. That’s old school advertising, that’s – you know, there’s coercive advertising.

John C. Dvorak Oh, here we go.

Leo Laporte I think the advertising model is moving away from coercion and tricks and is moving towards influence. The most successful…

Wil Harris …it’s about creativity.

Leo Laporte No, no, no, no. Advertising, starting at the turn of the last century, when Freud’s theories were used to create the business of advertising and PR, they went from being – if you look at a Sears catalogue, advertising used to be a list of features and benefits and that’s it. And then along came, what’s his name? The father of PR, Freud’s cousin who said, wait a minute, what, say again?

Wil Harris I can’t think of the guy’s name though.

John C. Dvorak I thought Hill & Knowlton invented the whole thing.

Leo Laporte No, no, this guy is…actually Hitler used his theories very effectively. This guy said, no, no, no. What you want to do is tap into Freudian wants and needs. You want to create a need for a product. You want to make people think that they’ve got bad breath or BO and that fear, that terror, will make them buy. And for almost a century, that’s what advertising has been. It has been to trick people into buying a product by coercion, by misrepresentation, by fear…

John C. Dvorak I remember the commercial, don’t broadcast BO.

Leo Laporte Exactly, exactly. Where do they…?

John C. Dvorak And then they would honk that horn, BO.

Leo Laporte That actually haunted me in high school because BO happens to rhyme with Leo and…

John C. Dvorak They called you BO Leo.

Leo Laporte They said Leo has BO. So thank you, Hill & Knowlton.

John C. Dvorak I thought your real pronunciation though was Léo.

Leo Laporte It was but they didn’t care. They – you know, middle school has no boundaries, no respect.

John C. Dvorak Oh, now I get it.

Leo Laporte Now, I have to have a moment here.

John C. Dvorak This explains everything.

Leo Laporte I have to have a moment here. All right, so I hate advertising like that! And so but I believe, I truly believe that one of the reasons we succeed and podcasts succeed is because we don’t use coercion or tricks or duplicity, what we do is we use influence. Which is I think a much more powerful way to reach people. It’s word of mouth. It’s having somebody, it’s – believe it or not, getting kind of back to that original features and benefits thing. That’s the kind of ads we do. We trust our audience to be intelligent. We explain to them why this is a product they might want to try. And I think that that’s going to be, in the long run, more effective, especially when you combine that with much more targeted advertising. So I don’t know if I’m with you, Wil. I don’t know if it’s about emotion anymore. I think it’s changing.

Wil Harris Well, I think you’re possibly right. I think that it’s really hard to say that advertising is – I think there’s two trends in advertising. There’s what you are saying and it kind of influences and the kind of features and benefits, and then there’s this kind of statistical kind of spreadsheet-based advertising, which is if you pay x-amount of dollars for banner on the side of a webpage, it will give you x-number of clients, which will generate an x-number of people clicking through, which will generate x-percentage of leads, which will generate x-percentage of acquisition.

Leo Laporte Right, and it works.

Wil Harris Well it does, but it’s kind of soul-destroying, isn’t? And I think the inevitable move from that is towards purely advertising where you’re purely getting paid based on acquisitions rather than…

Leo Laporte Well, we don’t do that, and you’re right. That is an acknowledgement that…

Wil Harris And that’s a real, real, real problem, because the way the spreadsheet-driven internet advertising industry works is moving inexorably towards a model where producers, publishers are only paid when a customer of theirs does something. And that’s a real problem.

Leo Laporte That doesn’t acknowledge – and in a way it is a kind of a counterargument to what I am saying, it doesn’t acknowledge the branding and the imaging that comes from advertising.

Wil Harris Yeah. It doesn’t acknowledge the brand and the image that comes with it, right? And so what I’m saying is that the brand and the image that comes with it is inevitably always going to be here and that’s why we’re not going to ever move to a purely kind of statistical Facebook likes and dislikes. It’s also by the power of brand, the power of image, the power of emotion and advertising.

John C. Dvorak You should talk to Steve Jobs.

Wil Harris Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah, he uses emotion, doesn’t he? Very effectively. Very effectively.

Wil Harris Awesome! Brilliant! Wonderful! Awesome! Really, really great! Awesome!

Leo Laporte Isn’t that a funny video? Isn’t that funny video? David Sparks’ article, by the way, was on Mashable and it is from October 1. And it is a good article that talks about the nine models for revenue; including subscription, donations and aggregation, which is kind of we do. We do a kind of mini-aggregation, my theory being that if you are looking for a certain style and quality that you would come to us, because you know that’s what you’re going to get. See, I think Mevio doesn’t do that, because it aggregates so many podcasts. You can’t do that.

John C. Dvorak It’s not a single channel. They also don’t do what you do, which is to have – you actually have more – you’re more like an international TV station.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak Because you have…

Leo Laporte Exactly. It’s much more like a station, you’re exactly right.

John C. Dvorak And you run it like a station. You’re like the station manager. You’re mean to your employees and you have this kind of – the typical station manager – you’ve – I think you’ve had a couple of operations, you’ve hit yourself in the head a few times, so you lower your IQ.

Leo Laporte I keep the cocaine in lower left and the bourbon in the lower right drawer.

Wil Harris But you know…

John C. Dvorak And the joke is you do have the bourbon there, I don’t know where you keep the other stuff. Show them, show them, there you go.

Leo Laporte I got two kinds of bourbon. I got your single barrel, Evan Williams – I like this bourbon because it’s named after the founder of Twitter. I don’t…

John C. Dvorak You know what’s interesting about that bourbon is not it’s, it’s rather inexpensive.

Leo Laporte Really?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, it’s like $20. It’s an outstanding product.

Leo Laporte You know because [ph] Kirk Harnak (25:47) gave me this. I thought it was kind of fancy. It’s smooth!

Wil Harris Well, I guess the great thing about being your own station manager is that you can hide your own boots, right…

Leo Laporte I hide my own boots. Frank, we got you back. What’s going on, Frank? You got – is Comcast mad at you for that article?

Frank Barnako No, I haven’t heard a word from them, no. I guess I am happy I have Cox.

Leo Laporte Oh, you have Cox. Cox is mad at you.

Frank Barnako Yeah. I can attest for Cox’s Internet connectivity today.

Leo Laporte Nothing worse than angry Cox.

John C. Dvorak It doesn’t seem too good.

Frank Barnako In the comments you were making at [ph] O&A (26:18), you talked about this Sparks piece. How’s begging doing these days?

Leo Laporte Not so good.

Frank Barnako Is begging [ph] hearing (26:28) – there was one suggestion – one of his nine models was, you put a PayPal button on the website. Does that still work or is that moving?

Leo Laporte We do it and it was my thought, my plan that that would be how we’d fund the network. I really didn’t want to take advertising. But it just isn’t – not enough people contribute. And I am not – I have too much pride to do the public television begging that is required.

John C. Dvorak Adam and I do that on our No Agenda show.

Leo Laporte You do? And how effective is that?

John C. Dvorak It’s actually better than you’d think. It’s still not – hasn’t turned the corner, but we haven’t turned up – I mean I used to do public radio a lot, so I’m used to this model. And as opposed to just commercial radio. And I think it works. And I think, I think – but you do have to do what they – you have to look at the experts. And the experts are the people that do public TV and public radio.

Leo Laporte Yeah, you know, that’s so annoying…

John C. Dvorak And they get into massive begging gimmicks, giveaways.

Leo Laporte I can’t do that. I can’t do that. I just don’t want to do that. And frankly, I was hoping that it would be cleaner to do donations and certainly I value – we do have donations, we do about 10,000 a month in donations. That pays for the rent, that pays for servers. It does kind of – I kind of dedicate it towards the fixed costs, except that salaries now have way outpaced that. But for a long time that’s how we ran it. I now consider it – it’s certainly an important part, they’re the equivalent of an advertiser. But it’s also – I consider it a buy-in.

And I think that that’s one thing you got to really think about is creating allegiance with your audience, creating a community and a buy-in from your audience and giving them away to buy in for $2 a month is more than just for financing. It really is to – boy, that bourbon’s coming right to my head. I think I will have another. It’s…

John C. Dvorak Can you use a glass, please?

Wil Harris It this like The Liquor Show? You’re on the bourbon, and I’m on the port.

Leo Laporte No, I’m sorry. Let’s move on. Are you all excited about Windows 7? Okay. I’m having a house party.

John C. Dvorak I signed up for that, and they never sent me. I got refused, I guess.

Leo Laporte How could they refuse John C. Dvorak?

John C. Dvorak I never got anything.

Wil Harris Can you tell me something? Are those videos real or are they fake?

Leo Laporte Those are not fake. You’ve seen on my blog, you’ve seen elsewhere the Windows House Party videos. That comes from which is an…

Wil Harris And they’re not like viral marketing or anything?

Leo Laporte Oh, far from it. They may make you sick.

Wil Harris Because I showed that to everyone in my office, and they all went, oh it’s viral marketing.

Leo Laporte No, it’s serious. Although the funniest one, the funniest one, there is a Windows 7 House Party kind of mash-up of this video that all they did was bleep the word activities, and it sounds filthy. You remember the book, Memoirs of a Shy Pornographer?

John C. Dvorak No.

Wil Harris Who wrote that?

Leo Laporte It’s a classic book. And the guy becomes a pornographer by taking his novel, which he could never publish, and just blanking out random nouns. And the human mind is so filthy, that if you blank out random nouns, it turns into porno! It’s quite a funny book, highly recommended, Memoirs of a Shy Pornographer.

Wil Harris Can you play us a bit of the video?

Leo Laporte Yeah, let me put, you want me to play the censored one? It’s pretty funny.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Wil Harris Yeah, go on.

Leo Laporte Let me see if I can find – has it. So the premise is there’s actually a company called that does house parties for businesses. And so Microsoft went to them and contracted with them and they had a process, I got selected, you get a copy of Windows 7 autographed by Steve Ballmer.

John C. Dvorak Autographed by Ballmer?

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak Did you get your copy yet?

Unidentified Speaker Hey! Welcome to the party.

Leo Laporte This coming Monday.

Unidentified Speaker You know what? Let’s take a minute or so to tell you about how great it is to [indiscernible] (30:26)

Unidentified Speaker …now the four of us got to have our parties a little ahead of schedule, you know, try everything out. So we thought we’d be able to tell you some of the tips that help make our parties really fun.

Unidentified Speaker Yeah!

Frank Barnako Of course the first thing you want to do is [indiscernible] (30:38) make sure you do that a couple of days in advance of the party, you’ve got to play with [indiscernible] (30:44) before the party.

Unidentified Speaker Second, look at the activities you and your guests can try at your party and choose the ones that seem to you to be the best most fun.

Unidentified Speaker There’s a video of each activity from one of our parties and we have tried them all, right.

Unidentified Speaker You just look at them all ….

Leo Laporte It’s getting filthier.

Unidentified Speaker …and decide which one seems to be the most fun for your guests.

Unidentified Speaker Right.

Unidentified Speaker And some of the host notes, they list [indiscernible] (31:05) right? [indiscernible] (31:08) them but….

Leo Laporte You get the idea.

John C. Dvorak It’s a good gag.

Leo Laporte It’s a great gag, it works very well. So we’re having the party October 22, they send you streamers, napkins, balloons, and with a copy of Windows 7, some suggested activities. It’s, you know, it’s hokey but I know a lot of people who are having these parties – all of them tongue and cheek, however, they’re still having the parties, right.

Frank Barnako Right, right. It’s hokey and you must think that Microsoft expected to get criticism and comments and people would say what the heck is this thing, but nonetheless as you say there are parties and people are talking about Windows 7 and the word of mouth is important.

Leo Laporte It’s working. It’s working. Actually, I’m excited. I like Windows 7, I know that’s kind of so uncool to say you like Windows but I really like Windows 7. And I think it’s going to be a –

John C. Dvorak You liked Vista too when it first came out.

Leo Laporte I did and I was wrong about that. My like turned to hate very quickly. In fact, John, you said – are you still stating this that by the time 7 comes out it’s going to be as bad as anything else?

John C. Dvorak Yeah. It’ll be clogged up and slow and, I mean, it’ll have the same issues – as bad or as good as anything else because I don’t think Vista is that bad.

Leo Laporte Yeah, well, it isn’t now. It kind of – it had some big compatibility issues.

John C. Dvorak Well, there’s just going to be some with Windows 7. Obviously the XP compatibility mode is going to have to be downloaded for people who want to use XP programs, certain ones anyway and so the downloads are supposed to available on the 22nd, it’s not going to be on the disk, or I guess whatever’s on the disk, it’s doesn’t work.

Leo Laporte If you buy a new computer you’ll get it. I’m waiting, actually there’s a new Dell that I really like, the Dell Z, Latitude Z, it’s a very thin kind of their MacBook Air and it just came out and I’m looking forward to getting it but I’m waiting because I want to get Windows 7 on it.

All right, we haven’t had – it’s been a while since there’s been a tech IPO. There is a tech IPO, we’re going to talk about that in just a second. Our guests, once again, John C. Dvorak, from and of course, Cranky Geeks, Angry Geeks, pissed-off tech people, I don’t know. What is it? What is the new one?

John C. Dvorak Stuff like that, the Tech Grouch.

Leo Laporte The Tech Grouch but you’re not going to be the –

John C. Dvorak Go to to get a sample.

Leo Laporte But you’re not going to be the Tech Grouch?

John C. Dvorak I am the Tech Grouch.

Leo Laporte Oh! But it’s going to be –

John C. Dvorak But I’m not really, if you know what I mean, I have to – it’s a –

Leo Laporte Oh! This sounds good. Why – but aren’t you worried that you’re getting typecast?

John C. Dvorak This is not – no because this is a different character.

Leo Laporte Is this the first time you’ve played a character?

John C. Dvorak No – I don’t know, I’m not sure that that’s true.

Leo Laporte Old Grouch meets technology.

John C. Dvorak Hey! I understand they’re bringing out a PS3 Slim, who needs it? I understand that they’re going bring out a small Wii and it’s going to be called the Wii Wii. Beatles rock band, who the heck needs –

Leo Laporte What are you? Are you like the guy from ZZ Top, what is that beard?

John C. Dvorak That’s the – if you’d let the thing play I have that joke in there – what is this crap? Hey you kids, go learn to play the guitar like I did. You’ve seen ZZ Top, haven’t you? Go to, use the code-word ‘tech’ for a 12% discount.

Leo Laporte You even got an ad in there, is that going be how long it is, 30 seconds like that?

John C. Dvorak Yeah 30 seconds.

Leo Laporte That’s pretty funny. Is it going – is the idea to go viral? Is that the plan?

John C. Dvorak Well, the idea is…

Leo Laporte I like it.

John C. Dvorak …to get someone to watch it.

Leo Laporte He is wearing a Plaid Hunter’s shirt, a Plaid Hunter’s cap.

John C. Dvorak That cap, by the way is the same cap that [ph] Carson (34:42) used to use when he played that rube that –

Leo Laporte That’s right. I remember that.

John C. Dvorak And my wife got me that cap – well, I’m sorry.

Leo Laporte Where did you the get ZZ Top beard?

John C. Dvorak I got it from the local party store. I actually wanted to get –

Leo Laporte And there’s the shed behind you, that’s the shed.

John C. Dvorak Well, no that’s a different shed.

Leo Laporte It looks the same, how can you tell the difference?

John C. Dvorak It’s a shed. I mean what do you want?

Leo Laporte A shed’s a shed. Oh my goodness.

John C. Dvorak I think this is my future here.

Leo Laporte This is the fun. Actually I really like it. And it’s you, it’s clearly you, I mean, it’s your voice.

John C. Dvorak No, it just looks like me.

Leo Laporte He’s even wearing – he’s even wearing – take the glasses off. If you took off the glasses we wouldn’t know.

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte You’d look like Mr. Potato Head but now it’s pretty obvious.

John C. Dvorak Those are giant glasses though from the ‘70s.

Leo Laporte Oh they’re special glasses?

John C. Dvorak They’re big, giant monster glasses.

Leo Laporte Are they the ones you wore in Computer Chronicles when you demonstrated the –

John C. Dvorak Yeah, those.

Leo Laporte PS2?

John C. Dvorak I found them. That’s what gave me the idea to do the character.

Leo Laporte Is it really?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte We’ll be back.

John C. Dvorak I’m bored. What can I say?

Leo Laporte No, you need something to do, it’s good you’ve got a hobby. I’m just glad, it could have been woodworking but no. It’s a – it’s the, what is it? The

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte I like it. All right you get the choice, we were thinking – I was very jealous, dig has this thing where you get thumbs-up and thumbs-down ads. And I think it’s brilliant. At first I thought what advertisers are going to allow people to dig or block ads. And then somebody explained it to me because I’m not so bright. And somebody said, no, no, this is good because the advertiser knows that that ad would only be seen by somebody who wants to see it. They don’t pay for the ones that don’t want to see it. And I just can’t figure out any way to do that with our ads. So you’re just going to have to listen, I’m sorry.

John C. Dvorak That was a long intro for what?

Leo Laporte, there’s no reason to thumbs-down this. It’s going to change your life. GoToMeeting is the online meeting service that saves you money. Now, you might say well how can a $49 a month service save me money? Well, have you checked out the cost of business meetings lately? My goodness $1,000, according to American Express, the average cost of a business trip when you add up the airplane, air fare, the hotel, the taxi, the Kobe beef, it can get expensive.

That’s why I do – as much meeting – I’m not going to do this for Dubai. I want to go to Dubai and, boy, talk about an expensive trip. I’m not paying for it but, boy, it’s an expensive trip. Thank you to TEDx for flying me out to Dubai. That $1,000, that wouldn’t even buy you like a little bon-bon on Emirates.

With GoToMeeting you have all the meetings you want, $49 a month. You have free voice-over-IP, you have free phone conferencing and people are – it’s more engaging. I think that, you know it’s – why do you fly out? You fly out so you can show them the PowerPoint, right. Show them the PowerPoint at GoToMeeting, they can engage with it. They can edit it, they can modify it, they can say well what about this? You can collaborate, you could train, GoToMeeting is an amazing service from the folks at Citrix, so you know, it’s good, it’s secure, it’s easy to use and did I say $49 a month, how about free for the next 30 days? Go to and you can try it absolutely free.

See, this is what I was talking about. We talked features, we talked benefits; we let you try it for free. I’m not trying to trick you. I don’t need to. We just let you try it and you’ll be the judge. We thank them so much for their support at This WEEK in TECH.

IPO, there hasn’t – when was the last tech IPO, I can’t even think of the last one. It’s been ages. Newegg says they’re going to have a public offering. They hope to raise $175 million. I think this is actually something I would consider but – do you have new – can you buy from Newegg in Britain, Wil?

Wil Harris No, unfortunately not. It’s the one thing as a tech hobbyist and [indiscernible] (38:49) is in my roots. I used to read with envy the Newegg Daily Deals that would turn up on you know on [ph] an ARM-tech or hard ACP (38:56) or all these kind of places and there’d always be something awesome to buy and we’d never be able to buy it and over here it’d always be three months late and twice as expensive.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Wil Harris So, I have a little chip…

Leo Laporte Newegg is amazing.

Wil Harris …a little mini chip on my shoulder about Newegg.

Leo Laporte I’ll give you an example. Newegg’s announced the OEM prices for Windows 7. And it costs $220 for Windows Home Premium. But if you buy the – see they’re smart, they sell the OEM version, right. I think you have to buy some sort of piece of hardware with it to justify that you’re building a computer. So you buy it and a stick of RAM but it’s like $99, it’s half price.

Wil Harris Nice.

Leo Laporte And every geek I know uses Newegg. In fact I was – I have been trying to get them to advertise. I think they’d be a great advertiser. Maybe they’ll have the money, now that they’ve got this IPO. Their revenue last year, 2.2 billion with a B. Isn’t that amazing?

Wil Harris It is amazing but I think –

Frank Barnako I was astounded when I saw that number.

Wil Harris Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Frank Barnako I had no idea they were that big.

Wil Harris But their margins are so razor, razor thin. It’s very hard make money –

Leo Laporte Yeah, that’s revenue. Okay. That’s a good point. That’s revenue not profit.

Wil Harris So they did 2.1 billion in revenue but they only made….

Leo Laporte $1.50.

Wil Harris …a 1.4% margin.

Leo Laporte How much, 1.4%?

Wil Harris 1.4% margin.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s tough. Yeah, you are right, that’s how…

Frank Barnako That’s the grocery business.

Leo Laporte Yes. Newegg stopped charging New York State sales tax last year, that’s a big story. I think that’s one of the reasons that these online retailers do so well and of course it’s very controversial with the states. They don’t – you don’t pay sales tax. Amazon same thing. Actually Amazon will charge New York State sales tax, Newegg will not.

So they want to go public. Would you invest? John is this a surprise? I mean I thought we’d never see another tech IPO ever again.

John C. Dvorak Well, the problem with the IPO market is largely due to I think Sarbanes-Oxley and their reporting requirements…

Leo Laporte Right. That – we’ve talked about that.

John C. Dvorak …which is the fact that…

Leo Laporte Yes.

John C. Dvorak I talked to Tim Draper as a matter of fact about this once and he specifically agreed – he agreed with me and specifically said that it’s not worth your while to roll out an IPO unless you’re a $400 million company. And of course obviously Newegg is in that range. It’s just too painful so nobody wants to do it so they – it’s either –

Leo Laporte The pain is the reporting requirements of a public company according to SOX.

John C. Dvorak Yes, and it’s also it’s apparently the stock number is it kills 4% of your bottom line…

Leo Laporte Wow.

John C. Dvorak Just all the work you have to do to…

Leo Laporte Well, if they’re only making 1.4% margin this could be bad.

John C. Dvorak They’ll be losing money.

Leo Laporte This could be a huge mistake.

John C. Dvorak Well, I don’t know if it’s a mistake, maybe they want to take the money and go somewhere.

Wil Harris Will the actual – their 1.4% margin results in 28 million in income in 2008.

Leo Laporte All right.

Wil Harris So can you go – can you do an IPO on 28 million?

Leo Laporte That’s interesting. I don’t know.

Frank Barnako There’s not much money [indiscernible] (42:02)…

John C. Dvorak You can do it on any amount you want but it doesn’t sound like a good idea. I mean I think until they change some things and make it – and put them – make the market more amenable to IPOs I think the entire economy is going to stay in the doldrums because the fact of the matter is if you have companies that are only being built so they can be bought by Google you’re not going to have any aggressive competition and it’s not going to be very interesting as opposed to if you have a company that knows it can do an IPO and then maybe take over the world you’re going to have – it’s a lot more liable. Things right now are dead in the water because of this situation.

Leo Laporte Frank, you’ve been covering this at MarketWatch since 1998, you’ve seen a lot of IPOs; you saw the frenzy firsthand…

Frank Barnako Oh yes. We were one ourselves. But I can’t imagine buying shares of this IPO irrespective of the business’ dollars right now; when do we expect consumer spending is going to come back? I mean – everything I read looks says it’s going to be until – it’s going to be two years before the consumer gets out there to start spending again. So Newegg – I don’t know if that Newegg’s revenues are going to really increase, and revenues are a critical in the recovery.

Right now companies are surprising on Wall Street. I think I read today that 75% of the S&P surprised on the upside with their net bottom line but they did it through cost cutting and the only way to recover now – they’ve got to start getting revenue increases, and consumer spending is not something I’d bet on.

Leo Laporte That’s interesting because people have been saying the recession is over. And the stock market’s been doing very well; but you’re saying they’re doing well not on increased sales at all, merely on cost cutting.

Frank Barnako Absolutely. That’s right. And just look at what happened last Friday when we saw the last month’s job numbers. For the first time in four months the number of jobs lost in the economy actually increased. We’d had a three month gain and then it just fell off the cliff last month, and the companies are still cutting their way to a positive bottom line but you can’t – you can cut your – you can’t cut yourself – you can’t keep cutting and expect to keep making more money.

Leo Laporte Is this – I love the phrase. Is this “a dead cat bounce?” I just wanted to say dead cat bounce.

John C. Dvorak Sometimes it’s called a dead cow too.

Leo Laporte For people who love cats. I know you love cats.

Wil Harris I have to say I think the best IPO prospect in the tech sector in the next year or so is got to be Facebook. Right?

Leo Laporte Oh, but they don’t need an IPO – there’s the irony. They don’t need an IPO.

John C. Dvorak They do if they want to walk away with a bunch of cash.

Frank Barnako Well they do if they want to cash in, right.

Wil Harris Ch-ching; Cash in and cash out.

John C. Dvorak Although a lot of these guys seem to be cashing in on their investors’ money.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak I mean they keep getting more money and then the next thing you know these guys have new cars.

Leo Laporte Twitter is now valued at what was it, a billion, two?

John C. Dvorak Yes.

Leo Laporte Yes. Facebook – what is its valuation? [ph] Two – forty (44:52) billion?

John C. Dvorak I thought…

Wil Harris Well the top rate that Microsoft paid was 15, right?

Leo Laporte Fifteen.

Wil Harris But it’s done nothing – an internal…

John C. Dvorak I think it’s gone up.

Wil Harris [ph] …round (45:01) is like 10.

John C. Dvorak I think it’s like thirty, forty, something like that.

Leo Laporte Really? Facebook’s got to be…

John C. Dvorak It’s something ridiculous – whatever it is you go “What”?

Leo Laporte What? Is it number of multiple of earnings usually? Frank, is it – how do you figure out what you’re worth?

Frank Barnako Well, the number is what an investor will pay for, and so you get that…

Leo Laporte Just like houses.

Frank Barnako You get that Twitter valuation based upon I think somebody invested $100 million…

Leo Laporte 100 million, that’s right.

Frank Barnako …and they grossed it up and they said well $100 million and I get X percent of the business and so it’s worth XYZ.

John C. Dvorak Right. It’s a simple calculation. If you buy a business, if you buy 10% of a business for $1 million then the business is worth 10 million.

Leo Laporte So then the real question is where does the investor come up with her number?

Frank Barnako That’s right.

Wil Harris [indiscernible] (45:50)

Leo Laporte Wil, you’re breaking up. You’re breaking up.

John C. Dvorak I think what Wil’s going to say is that they just basically pull it out of their butt.

Leo Laporte Oh, Wil.

Frank Barnako Fairly plain spoken there.

Leo Laporte Wil’s British, I think he’d probably say derriere or rear or tookus.

John C. Dvorak Bum.

Leo Laporte Bum. I just – I’m kind of glad that there is an IPO at all to be honest with you. It doesn’t sound like something I would – now that I know the margins, I would run out and buy stock…

John C. Dvorak Well, I’m not glad about it because the fact of the matter is this thing’s going to come out and it’s going to have a publicly traded company worth X amount of money and it’s going to – and then the share price is going to drop.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak Which is going to discourage further IPOs. Unless you bring out a hot IPO, that’s what you have to have, something comes out, comes out at $10 and flies to 150 overnight…

Leo Laporte Netscape, Netscape.

John C. Dvorak Then everybody gets jacked up.

Leo Laporte Well, Microsoft just completed the worst fiscal year in its history, revenue down 3%, first sales decline ever, all the top executives had their…

John C. Dvorak Well, maybe if they’d advertised in PC Magazine once in a while it won’t be such a problem for them.

Leo Laporte Do you know this article comes from PC Magazine? It’s kind of interesting.

John C. Dvorak Just saying.

Leo Laporte Just saying. Ballmer’s pay dropped from 1.34 million to 1.265, Robbie Bach, wow, wait a minute, this doesn’t sound right, the CEO made 1.3 million last year, Robbie Bach who is the president of the Entertainment Devices Division made 6 million. If I’m Ballmer I’m pissed.

John C. Dvorak No, Ballmer doesn’t need the money, a, and, b, there’s probably some sort of bonusing or something going on with Bach’s salary; he probably did a really good job of making money for the company.

Leo Laporte Yeah, no kidding. I guess he did. Xbox, you know. And he made 8 million…

Frank Barnako Salary plus bonus, plus stock options.

Leo Laporte Right. That’s – but this is total compensation numbers. CFO got 3.5 million compared to 4.8 million, a year earlier, COO Kevin Turner drops from – he was making 8 million, 8.6 million to 5.4. Poor Ballmer, he’s like the poor kid on the block.

John C. Dvorak Ballmer’s got something else going on.

Leo Laporte I’m feeling sorry for him.

John C. Dvorak He gets $10 per autographed copy of Windows 7 for the Microsoft parties.

Leo Laporte I’m going to send him $10. That’s what I’m going to do. Maybe Ballmer should have like a PayPal Tip Jar on the Microsoft site.

Frank Barnako Speaking of Microsoft’s quarter and the results and Windows 7, do you think that the Windows 7 is going to key off an IT rush, lots of upgrades? I’m reading something on the web today that says IT managers have been sitting with XP for let’s call it 2001 technology so they’ve been sitting with it for almost a decade, is it – are companies going to really go out there and make the switch now to Windows 7 and is that going to help Microsoft?

Leo Laporte I don’t – now this is an interesting – it’s a great question and you know in the past when a new version of Windows comes out it’s very good for the PC marketplace and boy the PC marketplace could really use it right now, they’re just struggling. I think this is going to be one of those times where people say, no, XP’s fine. It still runs, it’s still supported, Microsoft hasn’t end-of-lifed it.

I predict that in fact you’re not going to see this big buy and that this is going to be a further bad news in Microsoft’s bottom line. What do you think, John?

John C. Dvorak Well, I’ve already predicted that it would have a positive impact; I did this some months ago so I have – I should stick with…

Leo Laporte You don’t change that – you don’t change that?

John C. Dvorak No, I’m not – I’m not saying it’s not going to have the impact of Windows 95 or even Windows 98 or any of the big monster hits that Microsoft has had in the past, or Windows 2000 was a big – they had a string of hits: Windows 2000, Windows XP, these things all did very well.

Then they had Vista which was their first flop in terms of hits and then they got this coming out, everybody seems to like it, it looks pretty cool, I don’t think it’s going to be a mega hit, but I think it’s going to be in line with Windows 98 which as you know was a moderate hit, and I think it will help their finances a little bit and I think they are doing – at least they are trying to do some interesting things with these parties and some other events and promotions…

Leo Laporte Yeah, but I notice, I notice that all the marketing that I’ve seen is aimed at the consumer. That they are trying to sell the consumer, they want the consumer to buy a new PC, but really business is what makes or breaks Microsoft, makes or breaks PC makers. And I think business is not swayed by this. I don’t think they – the marketing to business has been compelling at all for Windows 7.

John C. Dvorak Well, you know Microsoft sticks with this theory that – pull, that if they can pull it through the consumer part of the business that the – in other words I am a consumer; say I run a business but I am also have a computer at home and I get jacked up on Windows 7 or my neighbors do or something, I see it, I like it. I start using and then I give the go ahead to the IT department, go buy it. I mean I don’t think that’s a bad process, I mean there’s no – how they’re going to market directly to businesses anyway nowadays – through Computer World – it’s a pamphlet, I mean there’s no …

Leo Laporte There’s no platform anymore.

John C. Dvorak No, I mean these companies basically screwed the pooch by letting all their conduits for information die essentially and now they don’t have any way of talking to the business man. I mean look at BusinessWeek, it’s boarder line going out of business itself, and this is the main business publication in the country.

Leo Laporte What do you think Wil?

Wil Harris Leo, I think the Wall Street folks are on your side, right now the stock Microsoft is selling at 25 across 30 or 31 maybe in the past six months but the stock is just flat – I mean it’s dead – been dead money for five years.

Leo Laporte It has been a pathetic stock, hasn’t it? For a company that is so dominant, that had so many successful products.

Wil Harris Yes.

Leo Laporte John and I, we’ve been talking about this for four years, what – what’s wrong with Microsoft stock?

John C. Dvorak I think with Microsoft’s.

Leo Laporte Wil, I want to ask you because we asked everybody. I’d love to get everybody on record on this, Windows 7, will there be a big boost for the PC industry or will people just go ‘I’m sticking with XP’, particularly in business?

Frank Barnako It’s not going to be a – huge boost for the PC industry because I don’t believe that at the moment a new operating system is top of people’s wish lists for things in a PC. I think it will have a much better critical and popular reception because I think people will be getting it on – netbooks and laptops primarily. And I think they will like a lot more than that. I don’t think businesses are going to be in a hurry to move to it because again – I don’t think there’s – the businesses right now aren’t crying out for a new version of Windows.

Leo Laporte I don’t think I think exactly right, they are happy with XP.

Frank Barnako Yeah.

Leo Laporte And unless Microsoft says we’re going to kill XP and I don’t think they can. And by the way this is no knock on Windows 7, I say it again. I think it’s really the best version of Windows, probably since ever …

Frank Barnako Yeah, yeah I would – I would agree.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Frank Barnako It’s certainly – it’s the best version of Windows that Microsoft have released in the past decade probably.

Leo Laporte Easily.

Frank Barnako I think [indiscernible] (53:18)

Leo Laporte I think it’s great as the late limited Windows 2000. That’s how good I think it is. Oh! Windows 2000.

John C. Dvorak Windows 2000 is still a great product, still works.

Leo Laporte I thought I’d get some laughs out of that, instead I get moans of joy and pleasure.

Frank Barnako People will agree.

John C. Dvorak [Indiscernible] (53:33) tremendous operating system.

Leo Laporte It really was, in fact I was – go ahead Frank.

Frank Barnako I found myself this summer needing to boot up and run Microsoft Money which they’re taking away from me and let me, don’t get me started on that.

Leo Laporte They are, they are going out of that business. Yeah.

Frank Barnako Yeah and come on into it, where is the conversion program? I need that.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Frank Barnako I need that, but I had a three year old – hell, the laptop was probably five years old, it had Windows 2000 on it and I booted it up and it ran fine; who knows what downloads and updates it took in when I booted it up after being dormant for three years. Worked fine.

Leo Laporte My mom, I have put my mom on Windows 2000, I’ve moved her to a Mac since, but she was on Windows 2000. All by herself, without anti-viruses – just normally secured Windows 2000 ran flawlessly perfect, it’s still running. It was on a Dell refurb, never got a virus, never got a bug – I mean it was rock solid.

Frank Barnako I have to say the – the mum moved to Mac, I think is becoming the, the must have geek move of 2008, 2009.

Leo Laporte It is, it is.

Frank Barnako Because I have done the exact, I did the exact same thing, the end of last year.

Leo Laporte It’s easy to quicken on the Mac by the way.

Frank Barnako Ah! I used to get a – a phone call every week, sometimes two a week from my mother with ‘this was downloaded, well there’s a screen’s come up that says this, is this the right thing, I think I’ve got this virus’. I went home, I bought her a Mac mini, I connected it up. I put Microsoft Word on it so she could do all the letters, and she uses Hotmail so she can still do all her e-mails. Literally I don’t think I have had – I think I have probably had one call in the last 12 months where she couldn’t work out something but no viruses, no spam, no, nothing. It’s been like – I highly advise anybody whose mother is still on Windows to go and get them a Mac.

Leo Laporte Now you’re maligning mothers all over the world, many moms…

John C. Dvorak Boneheads.

Leo Laporte Many moms are more sophisticated than we are, why I bet you there’s moms out there who are writing Haskell code right now or their database on the website. They are about to take over a Facebook.

Frank Barnako Leo, I just registered

Leo Laporte Very wise man. Good investment Frank. You know what I’ve been using Frank, it’s in lieu of Quicken or Microsoft Money is Mint, [ph] they’re quick, quick into its [indiscernible] (56:05). I just bought Mint. But I love Mint. Now it’s not quite the same, because you don’t really balance your check book. You just let the bank tell Mint – and all your financial institutions – Mint what’s going on but you get this great dashboard.

Frank Barnako Yeah. Mint is the one product I wish was available in the UK.

Leo Laporte You got Spotify, we got Mint.

Frank Barnako Yeah.

Leo Laporte I wonder what …

Frank Barnako Mint would be more helpful to be honest…

Wil Harris The problem with Microsoft Money, and Mint’s all well and good but Microsoft Money has all the investment records, all the portfolio.

Leo Laporte Right.

Wil Harris The transactions, the holdings, the profits, gains.

Leo Laporte Yeah, so come tax time that’s much more, yeah.

Wil Harris Yeah, and right now anybody with Microsoft Money and there’s millions of them remember, Microsoft tried to buy into it, they really thought that business was going to be something and they have just let it Peter away. So now the situation just …

John C. Dvorak I don’t get – I don’t get Microsoft in some of these things. They are almost like a little kid that looses interest. First they are all jacked up about buying into it, and getting into that industry and doing all – becoming another big player there. I am worried now that if they had bought into it, they’d lose interest and we wouldn’t even have Intuit. I mean these guys are like – now why would they drop Microsoft Money, is it losing tons of dough for them or is it just marginally profitable, I mean what’s the problem?

Wil Harris The only service that Microsoft Money provides and it’s critical to somebody who’s got a portfolio is that updating of stocks on a daily or weekly basis whatever you want to do. But that’s data that is loaded into the program while without – with how much money can that cost to continue to provide that service because the software once done is done. They haven’t updated the software in two or three years, so it’s not a big deal. It’s not a project they have to keep managing and moving along and to, to take care of competition and now didn’t we just read this week that Microsoft is talking to is it Bank of America about doing a kind of product?

Leo Laporte Yes. You know what I really think is happening at Microsoft and I don’t think that they are wrong in this, is that they realize that desktop software is not a – there is no future in it, that they see companies like Mint, they see web based services like that – and it’s really being the future. I wouldn’t be surprised if Microsoft introduces something similar in its Live family. If I were Yahoo! – I mean Yahoo!’s got this great finance page, I’d start looking at getting some web developers in there and working on that real quick. Because I think that that’s where – Mint really underscored for me, the value of – just letting the software take care of it all.

Wil Harris Well, of course the irony about Mint was that they didn’t actually really own any of its own software, right?

Leo Laporte Right.

Wil Harris It was all built on a third-party platform.

Leo Laporte It was a front end. They made 170 – it’s a classic story, they made $170 million for a front end. And the company, was it [ph] Yodeli (58:55) that makes the back end, they got squat; they got a new customer. It’s not unusual; I mean front end is everything.

John C. Dvorak So, all window dressing.

Leo Laporte It’s all – see that’s what I think – I have to think because I think Ray Ozzie is some part of this strategy as well, because of course he is very cloud focused. I think Microsoft is repositioning itself and really believes that desktop software has no future, that it’s all got to be online.

John C. Dvorak See I think that’s faulty thinking. Desktop software –

Leo Laporte Do you think that’s faulty thinking on my part or Microsoft’s part? Do you think that this is what Microsoft is thinking?

John C. Dvorak I – no, I agree with everything you said, I’m just saying I think it’s faulty thinking that to think that desktop software is dead, is over.

Leo Laporte I don’t know, I think maybe the computer is dead to be honest with you. The computer as we know it? You don’t like that?

Frank Barnako Leo, we have [indiscernible] (59:47) I think you’re on to something with this idea and I wanted to mention that to go back and beat the certainly Windows 7 horse, because if we are moving to the cloud with our software, we are putting our data up there, we are using it from any computer, the net is now the computer.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Frank Barnako What do you need a new OS for?

Leo Laporte You don’t, you just need a good browser.

John C. Dvorak Yes, wait until the net goes down and tell me what you think after that happens.

Leo Laporte Oh, we’ll go get some fresh air. It’ll be a good thing, it won’t be down long. What do you think it’s going to be down for more than a minute?

John C. Dvorak You don’t think it could be just taken down?

Leo Laporte Like for how long, a day, a year?

John C. Dvorak A month.

Adam Curry This is Adam Curry, again.

Leo Laporte Yes.

John C. Dvorak Month.

Leo Laporte A months would be – look, even as we stand now with the reliance of desktop software, the net goes down for a month, it’s terrible news. I don’t think it’s any worse than if you’re all cloud based, it’s bad news in general.

John C. Dvorak Not if you’re Stephen King.

Leo Laporte What is the deal?

John C. Dvorak Typing away, typing away for a month.

Leo Laporte What, has he got a type writer?

John C. Dvorak Well, I mean on his keyboard. He probably does.

Leo Laporte Yeah, well, I mean nobody is saying you don’t – nobody is saying you have no way of typing.

John C. Dvorak I have – let’s look at some of this cloud stuff. I have a lot of photos, they’re huge, their file sizes are monsters, because everything I save is in raw. So I have a bunch of ways of organizing these photos and if I do it on the cloud, I’ll be sitting here forever either trying to access these things or uploading them or doing all this other nonsense that’s much better done locally. And this is the same thing for – like I look at the PayPal account that I’ve got. And I want to go from page to page to page, just like takes forever, just to refresh the page and this is on a 10 megabit connection, I mean come on. I mean there is plenty of things that should be locally done I mean, this cloud thing is overrated.

Leo Laporte I got to play you this video.

John C. Dvorak And by the way Larry Ellison agrees with me.

Leo Laporte I got to play you this video. Larry Ellison hates cloud computing via Dvorak uncensored I might add. And it won’t play John, the cloud is dead. What’s wrong?

John C. Dvorak There you have it. There is a – there you go.

Leo Laporte Cloud! Never base your podcast on a cloud.

John C. Dvorak If you had a local copy, you’d be playing it as we speak.

Leo Laporte Now, I’ll tell you why you’re wrong, John. I’ll tell you exactly why you are wrong. Because you’re going to die and your poor kids are going to have eight million tons of raw photos that they’re going to – what are – they’re going to – if they’re just going to delete the data. They’re going to delete the data if they were in Picasa at least online in the photo album, somebody might look at it someday. You’re creating a data dump for nobody, and I…

John C. Dvorak I use the – it’s for me, I don’t care about my kids having access to my old photos.

Leo Laporte For you, are you going to look at those pictures?

John C. Dvorak Oh please…

Leo Laporte You’re never going to look at that thing.

John C. Dvorak This cloud thing is a corn ball idea, Larry Ellison is dead right.

Leo Laporte Let me play the – unfortunately the audio is not great on the Larry Ellison thing but let me play it anyway.

John C. Dvorak It’s not.

Leo Laporte And you could kind of try to make it out.

[Audio recording] (1:02:54).

Leo Laporte That’s not an objection, he is just saying – it’s meaningless, he is saying the term is kind of meaningless.

John C. Dvorak He doesn’t like the term, now, you people should listen to that whole thing though anyway.

Leo Laporte Yes, exactly.

John C. Dvorak So if what he says is true, in other words it’s always been cloud computing, because as long as there’s been a net, then why should anything change in so far as the paradigm of computing? In other words why should we stop using packages for the desktop when they still function very well?

Leo Laporte Because – well all right maybe they function well. But I think Microsoft [indiscernible] (1:04:16).

John C. Dvorak And they are more efficient, they are more efficient.

Leo Laporte Let’s use Money, let’s use Money. The idea of money sitting on your desktop kind of ignores the fact that all the data that money is chewing on is out there. Why does money need be on your desktop? Why not just have a personal website that’s secure and safe, of course that might be a question mark…

John C. Dvorak There you go.

Leo Laporte Let’s assume it’s secure and safe.

John C. Dvorak Big assumption.

Leo Laporte Well, but nothing’s secure and safe, even on your desktop. I think you can make it as secure as your desktop, let’s put it that way. Maybe more secure considering how people treat their desktops. And it’s always updated, it’s always available. Most importantly you’ve got a dashboard, I have got the Mint dashboard on my iPhone. I can see exactly what’s going on with my money here; I could see it on any computer. Because it’s cloud computing, it’s not tied to a machine. Why should – people don’t back up. They’re not always sitting at their computer, less and less so in fact, I think more and more, we want to have this stuff whatever we are, we don’t want it tied to a single CPU. That’s kind of an old fashioned idea.

Frank Barnako I’m with John, I wouldn’t put my photos online, they’re sitting here on an external hard drive.

Leo Laporte Really?

Frank Barnako …external hard drive, absolutely. And I would never – I did not go in and try Mint – I tried Mint, I looked at it. But I did not go with Mint no matter how easy it might be and accessible it makes everything, because I’m concerned about the security.

Leo Laporte Well, I resisted it too. I understand that completely and I did resist it for a year and I’m kicking myself now, because I went to it in August. Once you understand that the back end is the same back end your bank is using. What’s the risk – I mean your bank already had – this [ph] Yodeli (1:05:49) he knows everything about you anyway, right?

John C. Dvorak Yes, no I…

Frank Barnako I’ll have to sign up, yeah?

John C. Dvorak This argument is – you can’t – is not arguable and the Leo argument that we’re hearing right now because the fact of the matter is – this reminds me and let me give the anecdote that I’m always reminded of which is the people that are fearful of putting their orders online for mail order…

Leo Laporte Right, right.

John C. Dvorak Because the fact of the matter is…

Leo Laporte But you’ll give your credit card to a waiter who wanders off…

John C. Dvorak No, no actually that’s the – the real irony is beyond that is the fact of the matter is because I’ve done direct marketing is that nowadays if you want to set up a direct marketing 800 number they bring up that exact same website because they won’t take your order and they won’t do the ordering for you unless you have a website that takes the orders over the Internet.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak And they just type in what the person was…

Leo Laporte And it’s probably a prisoner typing it in. Seriously, I was using for a long time – I used an online bill pay service and all my bills are scanned in this mysterious place in South Dakota. Everything went to South Dakota until – and I couldn’t figure out why South Dakota until I realized there was a federal penitentiary there. They’re paying prisoner $0.10 an hour to scan my bills in.

John C. Dvorak Okay now. So now my concern again, let’s get back to the actual topic at hand, is not so much about the cloud versus the non-cloud versus the security. It’s the efficiency, it sucks, it’s absolutely stinks. Like I said, I go to PayPal, it takes forever to refresh a page, I got a fast connection. I’m doing some online writing or something. It doesn’t have half the power of Microsoft Word. It’s just too sluggish. I don’t like it, I don’t like uploading photos to these crazy websites, it takes forever. And then you have to do this and then they fail to recognize the photo. It’s ridiculous. I don’t – hey I understand they’re bringing out a PS3 slim. Who needs it? I understand they’re going to bring out a small Wii and it’s going to be called the Wii Wii.

Leo Laporte Ah, it’s the Tech Grouch! I’m sorry John. I had to do that to you.

John C. Dvorak I should never have mentioned the Tech Grouch. I have to live with this guy.

Leo Laporte All right, Wil you’re the guy under 30 here. What do you think?

Wil Harris Well I have to say, the thing about cloud computing for me isn’t that you mentioned sort of having your photos on the web and don’t necessarily trust your photos on the web and how you don’t want to get them up there. For me like I would have to say that photos are almost pointless if they’re not on the web…

Leo Laporte That’s what I think! Who is looking at them? Your kids aren’t looking at them.

Wil Harris If they’re not on the cloud. Because they’re – well, exactly. So for me…

Frank Barnako But you don’t have to keep them there, you can have them both places.

John C. Dvorak I shoot eight gigabyte a week generally of photos. I’m not going to be uploading that much. It takes too long.

Leo Laporte I upload every photo I care about. But you should first of all you shouldn’t be saving eight gigabytes, yeah. So I pick the photos I want to save. I upload them to SmugMug and Flickr. They are there, they’re protected, they’re safe. They’re online. If somebody wants them they can see them. I can link to him. I share them with the world. I think that that’s a good model. This…

Frank Barnako But you’ve still got them on Earth right?

Leo Laporte Yeah but I mean that –

John C. Dvorak Oh, erase them Leo, you don’t need them on Earth. Just erase everything you got and leave it up in the cloud. And then when your account is cancelled because somebody doesn’t like the way you look…

Leo Laporte Well, that’s why I do Flickr and SmugMug.

John C. Dvorak …then you can complain about it later.

Leo Laporte That’s why I do Flickr and SmugMug. I mean you’re right, you should save a copy. But come on let’s face it, how many people have a shoebox full of photos? I mean my wife has – we’ve moved four times with 400 pounds of photos. No one will ever look at, no one will ever look at those.

John C. Dvorak Scan them in and upload them Leo.

Frank Barnako Absolutely, look at them once and there are services that Scott Butner talked about.

Leo Laporte Well, there you go. There you go.

Frank Barnako I just had that. Some guys in India took a look at…

Leo Laporte You’ve proven my point. You’ve proven my point. That’s a best way to deal with them. Not that – you’ve got John an eight gigabyte a week shoebox that just happens to be a hard drive.

John C. Dvorak If I want to look at it I can plough through them like there’s no tomorrow. It’s very difficult to do when they’re online. It’s too slow.

Leo Laporte That’s true. That’s true. No you’re right, I use Lightroom on the drive to scan them, to look at them and see which I want. So that’s a good point. Alright, let’s take a break. This is so much fun. You guys are great. Now, Frank, it’s Barn-ako.

Frank Barnako Yeah.

Leo Laporte I’ve been saying Barnako, Barnako.

Frank Barnako It’s – a lot of people – it’s okay, it’s okay.

Leo Laporte Frank –

John C. Dvorak By the way the last time I checked that 49ers were up 35-zip.

Leo Laporte What? See that’s what happens when Brett Favre doesn’t play for every team in the NFL. I’m sorry. I apologize, Wil, in advance. How’s the cricket going?

Wil Harris Nah, forget it.

Frank Barnako Ask me how the Redskins are going.

Leo Laporte Redskins! How are the skins? No, the 9ers lost their first game yesterday – last week but just by a little bit and I guess they’re doing okay this week. Kevin Rose was on the show and actually announced the scores. So this is two weeks running. I’m personally of the opinion that people who listen to this show probably are not big football fans, in fact probably don’t even get out much.

John C. Dvorak Ha. You think?

Leo Laporte It’s just a theory. I could be wrong.

John C. Dvorak They don’t get out much.

Leo Laporte I am the Tech Grouch! I love this character, dude. This is such a great character.

John C. Dvorak Beatles Rock Band, who the heck needs this crap?

Leo Laporte It’s you, it’s finally – you finally found your [indiscernible] (01:11:16) John.

John C. Dvorak I found myself.

Leo Laporte You did. You know, you now you’ve something. This is going to go viral. I want to talk about something else that really I think is – when I found my life changed. I know you agree with me, Wil. This is – the audio books are just fantastic. is the one and only, the place to go to get your audio books,

They have 60,000 at last count, 60,000 books on here, every category, from business to fiction to non-fiction. I just – I always feel like my life is moving so fast. I just don’t get enough time to read and Audible solves that for me. They also – I really want to recommend the website because it’s a great place to go to browse.

You know people often moan the loss of the bookstore and I certainly love browsing bookstores. But Audible is just like a bookstore. It’s kind of like an online bookstore where you go, and you browse and you look, you say that sounds interesting. Some ways it’s even better because you can listen to a sample of the book.

Here’s Raymond Chandler’s The Big Sleep. What a classic that is. I didn’t even know that they had an audio. Elliott Gould narrates this. See, that’s so cool. I’m going to make this my Audible pick and I didn’t even know about this. I’m looking for books to listen to. I’ve got a 15-hour flight coming up.

Many, many Audible books are classics. This is unabridged Raymond Chandler’s first novel from 1939, introduces Philip Marlowe to the world. It was that great Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall movie. It was kind of an inscrutable movie I guess because who wrote it? Faulkner I think wrote the screenplay for it. Nobody can figure it out. But it’s just a classic.

Ah, this is it. This is my book pick of the week. But you see how quickly you just browse through there and you find great stuff. Now let me tell you. You can get two books absolutely free right now by going to sign up for that platinum account and the first two books are free, Elliott Gould reading The Big Sleep.

Elliott Gould What’s your name? Reilly, I said, Doghouse Reilly. That’s a funny name. She bit her lip and turned her head a little and looked at me along her eyes. Then she lowered her lashes until they almost cuddled her cheeks and slowly raised them again like a theatre curtain. I was to get to know that trick. That was supposed to make me roll over on my back with all four paws in the air. Are you a prizefighter? She asked.

Leo Laporte Oh, I can just see Lauren Bacall from that scene. That’s a great scene from the movie. Raymond Chandler’s The Big Sleep and another book, you pick it, absolutely free. Go to We love Audible. And we know you will. You can play it back on almost any device, your Kindle, your Zune, your iPod, your iPhone, even a lot of GPS devices.

Go to the device center right there on the Audible front page. You can see a list of all the devices and all the manufacturers. Figure it out if it works on your MP3 player. I’m sure it does. Start downloading books today from Audible, your first two free at We thank them so much for their support of this WEEK in TECH.

Still reading audio books or Audible books, Wil?

Wil Harris Yeah, I have to say – I’ve really been enjoying recently. I’ve got into a little bit of Tolkien kick.

Leo Laporte Oh, how fun.

Wil Harris Because there’s been a couple of new Tolkien books released over here. But Audible has a fantastic – a few of some of Tolkien’s lesser known works.

Leo Laporte [Ph] You know what (1:14:52)?

Wil Harris Farmer Giles of Ham, Roverandom, Smith of Wootton Major…

Leo Laporte You know what? They’re only in Audible, Britain, I think Audible UK.

Wil Harris No, no, I’m looking it on the Audible U.S. site.

Leo Laporte Oh, good.

Wil Harris Seven – because they’re in dollars.

Leo Laporte Oh, good, because we looked for the Lord of the Rings and you could get it, but we couldn’t.

Wil Harris Yeah, so they’ve got some really good ones here, Farmer Giles of Ham, Roverandom, narrated by Derek Jacobi who is a fantastic kind of Shakespearean British actor.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Wil Harris And they’re really, really, really fantastic, slightly less read Tolkien books but they’re equally as good.

Leo Laporte Are they good?

Wil Harris Yeah, very, very good.

Leo Laporte That’s cool. I’m going to have to try those. I’m a big fan of course. And they are making the movie The Hobbit.

Wil Harris Yeah, well, I can’t wait to see how that turns out.

Leo Laporte Is Jackson doing it? Peter Jackson is not directing that though. The guy who did other the Lord of the Rings.

Wil Harris Yeah, so he’s producing it but it’s being directed by Guillermo del Toro.

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s right. We talked about that the last time you were on. Didn’t we?

Wil Harris Yeah, that’s [ph] correct (1:15:50).

Leo Laporte Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wil Harris I’m such a Tolkien geek. It’s sad.

Leo Laporte Apple announces that there have been, there are 85,500 iPhone apps, two billion downloads. It’s just remarkable.

Wil Harris What is it? And 85,400 of them are tick calculators.

Leo Laporte Hey, you got the choice, you got your choice.

John C. Dvorak And flashlights.

Leo Laporte Palm has decided, I guess, to stop the shooting war with Apple, Palm Pre, remember, would sync with iTunes and Apple keeps updating iTunes so it doesn’t work. So Palm kept offering firmware. Finally they’ve given up and they say, ah, screw it. They’re going to let you download from Amazon anyway. Ama – you know what?

Wil Harris Oh, hey. But no the exact opposite because yesterday there was a new firmware released for the Pre with re-enabled syncing…

Leo Laporte Oh, man! I thought it was over.

Frank Barnako Oh, no.

Leo Laporte It depends when you read this…

Wil Harris Now it’s back.

Leo Laporte That’s hysterical.

Wil Harris It’s back.

Leo Laporte So now you get both. You get iTunes and Amazon’s MP3 store.

John C. Dvorak So, you know, I’ve never used the Amazon services. What’s the difference?

Leo Laporte Well, you know, the thing about iTunes is you know it’s kind of encapsulated and it’s – but I don’t think iTunes is that good-looking or easy to use.

John C. Dvorak I agree. I think it’s difficult to use. It takes for – and every time if I don’t use it a lot, you forget this screwy, it’s got a lot of – it’s weird.

Leo Laporte Screwy?

John C. Dvorak Screwy.

Leo Laporte It’s like a lot of programs that are older and have accreted a lot of silly UI cruft and so as a result it just no longer makes sense except to the people who have been there all along watching the cruft accumulate.

So you go to and you have to – you can’t search at the beginning because you’ll got CDs as well as MP3s. You just go to MP3 download section. And I think – I know a lot of iTunes fans who say oh this isn’t as easy to use. I think it’s easier – when iTunes was still copy protected, this wasn’t. It’s a great way to search. I was kind of –

Wil Harris Well, it’s easier because it’s the Amazon vernacular, right. Everyone knows how to use Amazon and so it’s just making that available through the same kind of channel.

John C. Dvorak But what about distribution of podcasts?

Leo Laporte Ah, no. They don’t do podcasts.

John C. Dvorak I mean that’s pretty much owned by iTunes.

Leo Laporte Yeah, they don’t do podcasts. And then that’s always been a sore spot for me. Not that I’m not glad that iTunes came along and made it easier to get podcasts but it’s still so many clicks. That’s one of the reasons we started doing streaming videos, so people just go to a website and they can see and I’m not going to be here next week because I’m going to Dubai. But when we come back the week after, I’m going to BlogWorld, that will be October 16, and I’ll talk then about a new platform we have for distributing our video because I do…

Wil Harris Oh, I’m so psyched for that, Leo, so psyched.

Leo Laporte I did not want to just put it on iTunes because it’s – I think we’ve plateaued and so I thought we’ve got to find a new way to make it – the whole thing is point of access. It has to be – you could sit down at your TV and do it. You know I’ve mentioned we’re going to deal with Mediafly. They’re going to put it on the Roku box which is a great start. You don’t have that in Britain though. But do you have Yahoo! TVs in the UK?

Frank Barnako These – the one that have the new kind of widget stuff integrated?

Leo Laporte I think a lot of manufacturers are going to build this into their new TVs. This will also work on those TVs.

Frank Barnako Oh, fantastic.

Leo Laporte So the idea is that ultimately it should be no more difficult to watch a ChannelFlip show or a Mevio show or a TWiT show on your TV then it is to watch NBC, CBS or ABC. And once we get to that point then I think podcasts can take off. I just don’t think they can take off in the ghetto of the iTune store, it just doesn’t – it’s too hard.

Frank Barnako Well, that’s what kicking off over here with the new kind of BBC joint venture.

Leo Laporte What’s that, what’s going on?

Frank Barnako Which is they’ve got this project where they’re basically, I went to a meeting with the guys running it a couple of weeks ago where they’re basically building the next generation – in Britain the primary working TV isn’t cable, it’s over the air. So it’s terrestrial. And they’re building the next terrestrial spec but it’s actually replacing terrestrial with IPTV.

So they’re basically creating an entirely British kind of local standard for IPTV with the idea that it’s as easy to build – to get any third party content on to the TV as it is to get anything that’s over a traditional broadcast. And the model that they’re using very explicitly is the iTunes App Store model whereby…

Leo Laporte That’s interesting.

Frank Barnako …so content providers like ChannelFlip in the UK or TWiT.

Leo Laporte You’ll buy an app that’s ChannelFlip.

Frank Barnako Well, you’ll make an app and basically make the equivalent of an app that can be browsed on the TV with its own kind of UI within a certain kind of…

Leo Laporte That’s exactly what Mediafly is doing. That’s so – that’s the way it has to be. So there’s going to be a TWiT button on the Roku. Or there’ll be a TWiT button on your Yahoo! or there’ll be a ChannelFlip button on your Yahoo! and that and then – so that’s interesting the BBC is doing that as well.

Wil Harris Yeah.

Leo Laporte Now, one of our chatters says he’s in Ireland and does have a Yahoo! TV. So I guess those TVs are coming out worldwide. But that’s – and Sony’s making a TV that you plug your Ethernet into. I mean I think that’s really where we need to go. It has to be that easy or people are just not – it’s too much trouble to figure out.

John C. Dvorak I agree with you.

Leo Laporte Thank you. What do you think about that Beatles Rock Band, that’s crap. I hate it, crap! What did you say, who needs that!

John C. Dvorak Learn how to play the – learn the real guitar, not the fake guitar.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I agree with you Tech Grouch.

John C. Dvorak There you have it.

Leo Laporte I think you’re absolutely right, that fake guitar, that’s crap!

John C. Dvorak And it’s going to be called the [ph] Wii Wii (1:21:28). Beatles Rock Band, who the heck needs this crap.

Leo Laporte Yeah!

John C. Dvorak I’m going to do a few more of those next week.

Leo Laporte I want you to do a ton of them. I guess it’s not probably very hard, right? You could probably write that stuff in your sleep.

John C. Dvorak I just gripe about everything.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I hate it!

John C. Dvorak So what else is new? How hard can it be?

Wil Harris There’s not a lot of effort that’s gone into that, right?

Leo Laporte No, wait a minute, now let’s not diminish. You see it’s easy because John makes it look so easy. But John’s had to live a lifetime of disappointment, frustration and horror to get to the point where he could make this kind of a thing.

Frank Barnako I may have missed it earlier in the show but is the Tech Grouch a thirty second spot that’s going to play on websites or is it a feature on Mevio that where we’re expected to come in, like a podcast check on it everyday?

Leo Laporte That’s a good question.

John C. Dvorak We have no idea. But we’ll figure it out eventually. Hey, you kids, go learn to play the guitar like I did.

Frank Barnako Well, John, you said this was your future, didn’t you?

John C. Dvorak It is, sadly enough.

Leo Laporte That’s what it’s come down to…

John C. Dvorak And I don’t like adverbs. So, hey, I have a request by the way.

Leo Laporte Yes sir, Mr. Dvorak.

John C. Dvorak I was thinking about this as I ran – I was editing a piece somebody did, it had a bunch of pops in it and of course I use one of these major screens for – to prevent that a little bit and I was thinking wouldn’t it be cool that – you know the way they do a red eye in a photo thing.

Leo Laporte Yes. You [indiscernible] (1:22:59).

John C. Dvorak You know they – you put a little circle around the eyeball, push the button, boom. So why can’t you take in a – make an Audacity plug-in…

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak That essentially highlights the pop area and then it re-normalizes the wave form so the pop goes away.

Leo Laporte That’s a great idea, I don’t know.

John C. Dvorak I’m soliciting that from someone.

Leo Laporte You know who might be able to do that for us, our friend Doug Kaye who did the Level Lighter at IT Conversations. He might be able to do with a [ph] papal (1:23:25) lighter.

John C. Dvorak The [ph] papal lighter, yeah (1:23:26).

Leo Laporte We have – if you use Audition actually, and I think other programs do this too, there is, besides the wave view there is this beautiful, Tony uses it. I don’t know exactly how it works. But it’s like a spectrogram view and you can see stuff that’s different and I think you could see pops and just – you just like paint over it, like it’s like a heal brush, just like on Photoshop but it’s an audio heal brush. It’s really cool.

John C. Dvorak This is on what?

Leo Laporte Audition, which is a software we were using. Actually we’re abandoning it now. We’re going to do final cut for all the audio and video editing as we move to video. So the IRAA, this is so sad. Jammie Thomas, Joel Tenenbaum, they fought the IRAA. They fought the record industry, ended up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages. Maybe they should have just ignored them.

Judge Nancy Gertner and the Federal Court in Massachusetts has issued four default judgments against people who were accused by the recording industry of peer-to-peer file sharing. They never bothered to answer the charges. So you’d think, well, hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. Yeah? No, she gave them the minimum $750 a song, a few thousand bucks, they walk. So the damages if you go to jury, Jammie Thomas’ damages, $80,000 a song, Joel Tenenbaum’s damages, 22,500 a song, ignoring the lawsuit, $750.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, you’re basically encouraging what’s essentially racketeering.

Leo Laporte Is this justice? I don’t know. I guess it is.

John C. Dvorak It’s racketeering is what it is. They should throw these people in jail.

Leo Laporte For filing these suits, the IRAA.

John C. Dvorak No, it’s just obviously ‘let’s file a suit here, let’s file a suit there’. Just file them all over the place. Whether you downloaded it or not and then you just give us the money or you’re going to have to pay at least $40,000 to take it to court.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Here’s a surprise. Two-thirds of Americans object to online tracking. Why do they even do a poll for that? And the number rises once they learn the different way which marketers are following their online movements. University of Pennsylvania and University of California-Berkeley professors doing a survey, a study, of marketers and how people view marketing. They ask things like please tell me whether or not you want websites you visit to give you discounts that are tailored to your interests. That’s what Google and Facebook do, right? 66% said, ‘no, we don’t want tailored ads.’ See this is wrong. They don’t know they want tailored ads.

John C. Dvorak I think they know they don’t want them.

Leo Laporte Wouldn’t you – wait a minute. Wouldn’t you prefer – this was my contention earlier on in the show.

John C. Dvorak Yeah. This was your contention.

Leo Laporte Wouldn’t you prefer if you go to a website that the ad – I guess the problem is they feel like they’re being spied on but if you could set aside the spying wouldn’t you rather see ads, I know we know this on TV. You’d rather see an ad for something you’re interested in, than for something you’re not interested in. I don’t care to see feminine hygiene spray ads on television because I just don’t have that problem.

John C. Dvorak I don’t like seeing ads.

Leo Laporte At all.

John C. Dvorak Well, yeah.

Frank Barnako In the question – was that question? Was it ads tailored to me or…

Leo Laporte Yes.

Frank Barnako …no ads and I’ll bet it was the former and not that latter.

Leo Laporte It was.

Frank Barnako And so I’d rather not see any ads at all period.

Leo Laporte Ah, well sorry.

Frank Barnako But I would like to see ads tailored to me.

Leo Laporte I mean, yeah I understand. I don’t want to see ads but come on, I mean you also, I also…

John C. Dvorak I don’t care if it’s tailored to me or not. I’m not going to pay any attention. I don’t like ads.

Leo Laporte Well then what do we do to monetize?

John C. Dvorak Beg for money.

Leo Laporte How do you monetize the Tech – beg for money. How do you monetize the Tech Grouch?

John C. Dvorak Using a Squarespace thing that’s tailor-made for the people who watch the Tech Grouch.

Leo Laporte So they get a…

John C. Dvorak It’s a targeted ad for people who are only interested in this sort of thing. I don’t know. I mean this is just like – there’s nothing else you can do. You’ve seen ZZ Top, haven’t you? Go to, use the code word ‘tech’ for a 12% discount.

Leo Laporte You get a better discount than we do. We only get 10%. Oh stop. Is there more?

Frank Barnako This is a –

John C. Dvorak No, it just – it repeats.

Leo Laporte Oh that’s good. It just plays over and over!

Frank Barnako This is a feature in – this is a feature in search of a business model.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, that’s because I – I am friends with the CEO.

Leo Laporte Google – oh, with Squarespace, you’re friends?

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte I thought I was your friend.

Wil Harris That’s a very nice little smug look there.

Leo Laporte I thought I was –

Frank Barnako That’s a bigger discount.

Leo Laporte All right. That’s okay.

John C. Dvorak Honestly, it comes out of my money. I actually give back to the community. That’s…

Leo Laporte Oh, I get it the 2% comes from you. Hey what was I going to say? Oh, Wave, Google Wave came out. We talked a lot about it. If you’re really interested in this on the This Week in Google show – that’s the Google fanboys show. This is, I think, probably somewhat less than a Google fanboys show.

John C. Dvorak You know, your show was – that show was rated number one by some podcast nut ball.

Leo Laporte Nut ball? It was number one in iTunes.

John C. Dvorak Well besides that.

Leo Laporte It’s a very, very popular show, why? Because Google is taking over the world and everybody wants to know when it’s coming.

John C. Dvorak I have never heard this show. I am going to have to listen to it now.

Leo Laporte You know, it’s Jeff Jarvis who’s great. It’s Gina Trapani. And then we bring in a fourth. We’d love to have you on, on anytime you want and we bring in a fourth person who is an expert in some area. Last – yesterday it was Marshall Kirkpatrick from ReadWriteWeb and Kevin Marks of British Telecom who’s the guy who started – created QuickTime and used to work at Google. So he is very Google OpenSocial. So he’s…

John C. Dvorak Are you marginalizing this show, the big show, the TWiT show?

Leo Laporte Yeah, this show is dead. It’s history. You know, the last time I say that…

Frank Barnako Google is very, very [inaudible] (1:29:18).

Leo Laporte No, no, I am not marginalizing the show. Are you kidding? I just trying to expand so that I can be a multimillionaire. It’s, hey – it’s expensive – servants. Do you know how much a…?

John C. Dvorak A good butler is expensive and hard to find.

Leo Laporte A good butler – very expensive. A hubcap on a Bentley, you know how much that costs? It is not easy to live in Northern California. The pool boy raised the cost of – he said…

John C. Dvorak Raoul?

Leo Laporte Raoul! 20% more, he says, because we have four pools, and I don’t think that that’s fair. I think it’s by hour. It doesn’t matter how many pools you have. The hourly rate should be the same, if it takes him – it doesn’t make sense, okay? I’m just saying.

John C. Dvorak Well, I feel for you.

Leo Laporte And have you seen the cost of jet fuel?

John C. Dvorak So what is that show Google about?

Leo Laporte It’s about Google but let me ask you about Wave. What do you think? Now that we’ve all seen it, right?

Frank Barnako No, I haven’t seen it.

John C. Dvorak No, I never got my invite, I never got it running, I’ve never seen Wave.

Frank Barnako Only you got an invite.

Leo Laporte All right, I will invite you guys. I will send you invites. I have three left just in time for you. How about you – Wil, have you seen it?

Wil Harris Well, but here’s the thing Leo, you can send out the invites but they are not going out.

Leo Laporte No, they are nominations, they are not invites. They are nominations.

Wil Harris Yeah, they are all just kind of stuck in some kind of big Google logjam because I have had people who have sent me a few and I haven’t had any of them.

John C. Dvorak Leo, tell us all about it.

Frank Barnako Yeah, what do you think of it? You have been inside.

Leo Laporte I encourage you to check out our [ph] pod show (1:30:54) because we did spend an hour talking about it. [ph] Scoble (1:30:59) said, “What is this…” – he finally got in and he said, “This is like incomprehensible mishmash of stuff. It’s like chat out of control.” And I think your first reaction is this is kind of crazy. But I am going to withhold judgment because I think in time…

John C. Dvorak What it’s supposed to be?

Leo Laporte Well, I think they misrepresented it. The [ph] Rasmussen brothers (1:31:16), when they created it, said, “We want to rethink email.” Email was invented 30 years ago. How people communicate is different. And I think that people thought, “Oh, this is going to be the next email.” And it’s not. It’s really for – I think it’s a collaborative tool. It doesn’t even have a public face. It’s a collaborative tool. So if we were, for instance, planning the show, which we have never done, but say we wanted to, we would get together in a Google Wave and we’d type up ideas, we’d paste articles and videos and so forth and we could collaborate and make a permanent document that is a record of the collaboration including all edits. It’s kind of wiki-like. You can edit what I wrote, I can edit what you wrote. There’s a playback so you can go back to the beginning and walk through the changes. I think it’s an interesting tool for that.

I think what’s going to make it or break it is what third-party developers do for it. It’s got a real API, there are a number of bots and extensions and gadgets for it already and I think that that could really tell us what it could be. I think we don’t know. Just as we didn’t really know what Twitter was going to be until people got to it and started using it and they really used it in ways that were different from what Twitter thought they would be. I think we will see Wave develop as its users use it. I think it’s very innovative and very interesting. I think it has a lot of potential.

John C. Dvorak It sounds like something for The Tech Grouch.

Frank Barnako Is it different from Google documents?

Leo Laporte Yeah, it is – it’s much more real time. And this is – what it really is is playing off of this real fervor for real time web where everything happens right now and is collaborative and it’s in the real time. I mean I guess that’s the question is – much as is cloud – is cloud computing new? No, we have been doing – real time is not new. I mean we have been doing real time on radio and TV for years. Anything live is real time but the web has not had that until recently. And now thanks to more modern web technologies and AJAX and things like XMPP, it can be real time, and I think that that is kind of an interesting use of the web.

I am excited about it. We do a lot of real time stuff here, I have chat rooms going while we are doing the show, we have a FriendFeed room that’s going while we were doing the show. I think it’s very valuable. We’ve had 108 comments in our FriendFeed conversation as we have been talking. Johnny Worthington says, “Wave is inter-office email.” That may be actually a more apt description of it really.

John C. Dvorak I remember the day when inter-office email used to come in a big manila envelope.

Leo Laporte Yes.

John C. Dvorak And there was a bunch of names on it. And when you wrote the – you read it and then you X-ed your name off and sent it to the next person.

Leo Laporte I bet you were a hoarder. Did you hoard those envelopes?

John C. Dvorak No, I didn’t – well, maybe.

Leo Laporte I did.

John C. Dvorak You did?

Leo Laporte They were very useful. Oh, yeah you could store stuff in them.

John C. Dvorak Well, they were handy envelope. And it’s also a good way to route stuff.

Leo Laporte It is. And remember they had air holes in them so they were really good for storing small animals.

John C. Dvorak They did have air holes for some unknown reason.

Leo Laporte Nobody understands why they had air hole.

Frank Barnako You know what’s really good for keeping stuff now also with FedEx envelopes.

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah.

Frank Barnako They’re very, very sturdy.

Leo Laporte They are tough.

Frank Barnako Yeah.

John C. Dvorak They’re Tyvek.

Frank Barnako And they are free.

Leo Laporte Are they Tyvek? They seem like they are Tyvek.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, they’re Tyvek. They are very, very – try tearing one.

Leo Laporte Yeah, no you can’t.

John C. Dvorak I’ve sewn them into jackets and so you can wear them.

Leo Laporte Tyvek is not the same thing as bulletproof material, right? That’s something else.

John C. Dvorak That’s Kevlar.

Frank Barnako Dvorak’s beard is made out of Tyvek.

Leo Laporte I think that beard is definitely nothing natural. Let’s put it that way. It was never anybody’s actual hair. John C. Dvorak is at and check out his new Tech Grouch show which I think we’ve plugged more than enough.

John C. Dvorak I didn’t mean to even plug it at all.

Leo Laporte I’m glad you did, it’s great! You can catch him there and we thank you so much for being here John, and boy that camera’s looking good for people who want to see John in his incredible sartorial excellence…

John C. Dvorak I got to dye my hair or something, I’m too blonde.

Leo Laporte Where did you get that? Yes, you are too blonde John. Where did you get that shirt? That’s just wild.

John C. Dvorak Taiwan.

Leo Laporte Oh it looks something like carnival left over from Rio.

John C. Dvorak I – believe it or not, I bought this shirt about almost 20 years ago in Taipei, I’ve never worn it because I just saw the fabric, I said that would make a great custom shirt, I bought it at the Lai Lai Sheraton’s tailor shop, and I – it’s been in the closet forever and every time I put it on and think I’m going to go outside with it I put it back.

Leo Laporte No!

John C. Dvorak I can’t wear it, it’s like impossible.

Leo Laporte Mimi says not with me, you are not wearing that shirt.

John C. Dvorak So I figured this is where the…

Leo Laporte It’s perfect for this show, and you know when you look at it on Skypesaurus which is our special four-screen Skype display, you just stand out, – it really pops.

John C. Dvorak Yes.

Leo Laporte It’s fantastic. If you haven’t seen the show, we do it live and I think I can say safely we perform it live every Sunday afternoon at 3:00 p.m. Pacific, 6:00 p.m. Eastern and you are – we’d love you to watch live and participate in the chat rooms or the FriendFeed room at, And thank you John for being here.

Frank, I really want to thank you for being here. And we are going to have you on a lot more.

Frank Barnako Thank you.

Leo Laporte Frank Barnako, I got it right.

Frank Barnako Just call me Frank.

Leo Laporte Frank. Frank is at Barnako…

John C. Dvorak Frankie B.

Leo Laporte Frankie B is here. He is at He has immense experience in this business including, CBS MarketWatch, started the Internet Daily column for MarketWatch back in 1998, and we are going to have you back real soon, and of course Wil Harris is always welcome to darken our door anytime at and anything else you want to plug, you have been doing a great job with Bobby Llew.

Wil Harris Oh, and Twitter Wil Harris. Wil Harris on Twitter.

Leo Laporte Oh yes, you like to plug that, you like to plug that Twitter, don’t you?

Wil Harris I do, I do, it’s just the, you know I’m an immensely vain person.

Leo Laporte Really that’s all Twitter is good for you know.

Wil Harris Yes.

Leo Laporte Yes. Just like kind of flogging your personal brand.

Wil Harris Pretty much.

Leo Laporte Do you have a…

Wil Harris It also makes a fantastic crowd sourcing resource.

Leo Laporte Yes. Yes, it does, you know, it’s really good, in fact that’s what John’s always said. It’s really good really good for asking a question and getting an answer, and he is…

Frank Barnako Leo, how many days will you be on the ground in Dubai?

Leo Laporte I’m going to be there, we fly out Tuesday and that means we arrive Wednesday evening. So I’ll be there Wednesday evening Thursday, Friday; Saturday I speak at the TEDxDubai is at The Palladium in Dubai at the Media City on Saturday; it’s a 15 hour flight each way for 18 minutes speech, Saturday and Sunday I’m going to do the radio show from there which is going to be a lot of fun and then we fly back on Monday, so I’ve got a good five or six days, have you been there, Frank?

Frank Barnako I have not but it is the one place I would like to go. We were talking about a wedding anniversary trip and I suggested that and my wife said no…

Leo Laporte Oh!

Frank Barnako But I hope you take a lot of photographs.

Leo Laporte I’m going to live blog, photograph, I’m going to do the usual crazy media thing that I did last summer in China, and you know the iPhone is really a great platform for kind of blogging a trip. You could just do the whole thing and so I hope I don’t have the same AT&T bill that I had from China but I will do that. And I will fill you in, and maybe I can convince your wife it’s worth going. My wife’s very excited. She – well we are going to take a water taxi to the souks and buy gold, I’m told.

John C. Dvorak You better go with a local.

Leo Laporte Yes, oh yes, because I can’t, I don’t know how to – I don’t know how to do that…

John C. Dvorak They’ll rip you off and the gold thing is cool because they actually will sell you these elaborate gold chains and they weigh it and then they see what the current market price for gold is and you buy it at that price.

Leo Laporte Plus the 100% or no? I mean…

John C. Dvorak No, no, no mark up.

Leo Laporte So they – wow, well, so then I don’t have to haggle there?

John C. Dvorak No, there still apparently they do – they pull some tricks on you if you don’t know what you are doing.

Leo Laporte Like the old thumb on the scale trick.

John C. Dvorak Something like that.

Leo Laporte Wow, that gold chain weighs 12 pounds.

John C. Dvorak There is an area in Dubai that every shop is a gold shop.

Leo Laporte That’s where I want to go, the Gold Souks.

John C. Dvorak It’s blinding.

Leo Laporte I can’t wait, I’m so excited.

John C. Dvorak Go with a local.

Leo Laporte No, we will, we are – actually what’s great is I’m being – Giorgio and the people there are just being great, and they are going to take us everywhere, we are going to go out in the desert, I want to shoot some – I’ll do some photography out in the dunes, I’m really looking forward to it, so I’ll report…

John C. Dvorak The entire town is the desert but go ahead, you know, think what you want. Horrible.

Leo Laporte Next week we will still do a TWiT but it will be Brian Brushwood and Molly Wood, we call it Shwood and Wood, and that will be at the same time and I’m sure they will have a blast; all the other shows will continue on with Alex Lindsay guest hosting for me and I will be back I guess Tuesday for MacBreak Weekly. That’s a week from Tuesday. But do follow my – I guess the best place to go probably would be follow my FriendFeed account because that will pull in links from Facebook, from my blog from my Twitter from everywhere else that I post, that’s

Frank, are you on Twitter? You want to plug your Twitter account?

Frank Barnako Frank Barnako is the Twitter account.

Leo Laporte Easy enough, Barnako.

John C. Dvorak And THErealDVORAK.

Leo Laporte Of course what else would it be? Well, it could be realDVORAK if you are David Pogue. Did he ever apologize to you?

John C. Dvorak Yes, he sent me a note, but he never, you know, he sent me a tweet.

Leo Laporte So he tweeted you. At least he tweeted the right account – David was complaining that John was ripping him on Twitter and it turns out it wasn’t John it was somebody pretending to be John.

Dune surfing, they say I can go dune surfing, that’ll be fun. Hey, thanks guys. I really appreciate your time. Thank you all for being here. East Meets West is coming up next. I’m Leo Laporte. Another TWiT is in the can.


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