TWiT 221/Transcript

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Episode 221


This transcript is provided by our friends at Pods in Print

Leo Laporte Bandwidth for This Week in Tech is provided by AOL Music and, where you can get free mp3s, exclusive interviews, and more.

This is TWiT, This Week in Tech, Episode 221 for November 16, 2009: Get Off Of My Planet!

This Week in Tech is brought to you by Sign up for the Platinum plan and get two free books. Go to:, and follow Audible on Twitter, user ID: audible_com. And by GoToMeeting: business travel can kill your company’s profits, so do more, save more and travel less with GoToMeeting. For your free 30-day trial, visit And by the new Ford SYNC, featuring handsfree calling, music search, and turn-by-turn navigation. All voice activated from Ford SYNC. For more details and to enter to win a free Nano or Zune, visit

Leo Laporte This is TWiT, This Week in Tech, the show that covers the latest tech news, with journalists from across the world and around the nation. Starting with, in the upper – center square to block, it’s Baratunde Thurston. Hey, Baratunde, good to have you back on the show.

Baratunde Thurston Hello, hello, good to be here from Brooklyn, thanks for having me back, you know.

Leo Laporte He’s representing Brooklyn. From, he’s also the web editor – political editor for The Onion Magazine and the host of Popular Science’s Future Of show on the Science Channel. And always glad to have you on.

Baratunde Thurston Always good to be here. Thanks a lot.

Leo Laporte Do you have a show? Do you have like – you don’t have a show tonight, I don’t have to rush to get you out of here, right?

Baratunde Thurston No, I’m good to go. I’ve got a Web 2.0 talk later this week, but hopefully we’ll be done by Wednesday.

Leo Laporte Okay, I know that feeling. Jeff Jarvis has stuck around, which is very nice, from the This Week in Google show, and he’s well pickled. Fresh as a daisy. It’s good to have you, Jeff, from, one of the really great commentators on the future of journalism.

Jeff Jarvis For that, do I get a book plug, Leo?

Leo Laporte And the book – we forgot to plug the book on the TWiG show, yeah, you can plug it twice.

Jeff Jarvis That’s ok; I in couple there, but this is a new bunch of sufferers.

Leo Laporte The book is: ‘What Would Google Do?’ And available at better bookstores, also it’s an Audible book. And on the Kindle?

Jeff Jarvis Yes.

Leo Laporte On the Kindle too. That’s fantastic, great to have you back, Jeff.

Jeff Jarvis Thank you.

Leo Laporte And in the lower right hand corner, to block, it is Mr. John C. Dvorak. Is that a TWiT hat you’re wearing? No, I don’t think so; I couldn’t be so blessed. What are you wearing there, what’s that hat?

John C. Dvorak Just a hat.

Leo Laporte Just a hat. It says alumni for the Evergreen State College. Well that’s great. Apparently they don’t know the difference between alumnus and alumna.

John C. Dvorak And why would they?

Leo Laporte They don’t do Latin at Evergreen. Great to have all three of you on the show today.

John C. Dvorak Don’t forget

Leo Laporte Oh, see, I almost forgot the plug. Can’t do that. Boy, this was the week – one of you must be a gamer. I’m guessing Baratunde, you might play a game or two, you as the youngest person on the show today.

Baratunde Thurston I play a little bit, I just got an X-Box 360 a few months back and I play Left 4 Dead and Burnout. I haven’t played the Modern Warfare, Call of Duty.

Leo Laporte You gotta go get Modern Warfare 2, baby, join the crowd. The largest – according to – at least to the Infinity Ward, the creator of the game, the largest media launch of all time, 4.7 million copies sold, I mean huge revenue, $310 million, bigger than any movie launch, bigger than the biggest movie of all time, Dark Knight, which was last year – twice as big as The Dark Knight’s first weekend. This was in one day, by the way, one day sales. Bigger than the biggest record album out there, even bigger than the last big video game which was – last year, was Grand Theft Auto 4. A huge, $310 million sale in one day in the U.K. and North America.

Baratunde Thurston Well – sorry, go ahead.

Leo Laporte No, you finish, you finish the sentence.

Baratunde Thurston Well I wanted to talk about these numbers, because it’s always – it’s very popular for people to say videogame releases are bigger than movies. But what’s always left out of those stories, at least in the lead of those stories, is that they cost $60 a pop.

Leo Laporte Right, right. If you’re just talking revenue, yeah.

Baratunde Thurston Like, Dark Knight did, I don’t know, at least three times as much, because movie tickets aren’t yet $60 – I’m sure they’ll get there… [indiscernible] (05:28)

Leo Laporte Yeah, but Dark Knight is a two-hour commitment.

Baratunde Thurston And this is what, a 40 hour commitment? It’s like a job, right?

Leo Laporte It’s the rest of your life. It’s like a job – in fact, you guys at The Onion…

Baratunde Thurston A job you pay to do!

Leo Laporte You guys at The Onion did a very funny Modern Warfare 3.

Baratunde Thurston Yeah, ‘Ultra realistic modern warfare game features awaiting orders and repairing trucks’, that was about – it just shows guys like fixing their Humvees or like waiting for orders to come down, guarding the Green Zone.

Leo Laporte It was really a very, very funny piece. I think that The Onion News Network is so realistic – do they – are those real like news people that they use on those? Because they’re –

Baratunde Thurston That’s a great question. Some of them are. So we’ve had Bobby Batista, a former CNN reporter, reporting for us. The most realistic people come for the Morning Show, which we call Today Now! which parodies Good Morning America…

Leo Laporte Right, right.

Baratunde Thurston …The Early Show. All these sunshiny people who are creepily happy. And we found that actors couldn’t be creepy enough. They just –


Baratunde Thurston They just didn’t – we had to have a real morning news anchor to get that disconcerting sense of positivity. Only someone trained to do it could actually…

Leo Laporte You have to be a trained professional, it’s not acting. It’s something else; I don’t know exactly what it is.

Baratunde Thurston It’s just being.

Leo Laporte It’s truly amazing.

John C. Dvorak Leo, can the two of us get on that show? We should do it.

Leo Laporte Oh, we could be creepily happy. What do you think, John?

John C. Dvorak Oh yeah. Hey!

Leo Laporte Hey! Happy Talk News. I think that’s a good idea, John. Maybe we got something. It’s really funny, because it just – it’s uncannily – it looks like the real thing.

Jeff Jarvis Be careful, or Onion will do a version of TWiT.

Leo Laporte No, it’s not –

Baratunde Thurston That’s how you know you’ve made it. That’s how you know you’ve made it.

Leo Laporte Yeah, exactly, we’re not well known enough, exactly.

John C. Dvorak They haven’t already?

Leo Laporte No, no, no.

Baratunde Thurston Not yet.

Leo Laporte When that happens, I will say, man. See, Mom? I’m on the – I’m in The Onion now. Anyway, huge success. But you made a very good point. If you talk about unit sales, it’s not close to The Dark Knight. But still.

Baratunde Thurston But I still think it speaks to people’s desire to kind of be in the story, more than watch somebody else’s vision of a story unfold, it’s interactive, it’s collaborative, you’re playing with your friends, all these things are harder to do in a movie theatre. You’re just sitting there watching someone else’s vision unfold. This, you get to be a part of that unfolding, so I think…

Leo Laporte It really pissed off PC gamers, though. I had a PC gamer call a radio show saying, ‘you gotta dance with the one that brung ya’; we made Call of Duty the successful franchise it is, and on this one, they decided not – Infinity Ward decided not to have dedicated servers. Which is something apparently PC gamers really count on.

And Infinity Ward’s response to this was, well – first of all, that’s a small number of people, and in fact I guess the success of the sales shows that it is – and we decided that we wanted to improve the experience of the participants. They said, you know, given the choice between making this small number of kind of hardcore gamers happy and improving the overall experience for everyone, ‘we’re just prioritizing the player experience above the modders and the tuners’, said Jason West, who’s one of the heads of Infinity Ward. He says ‘the cheating, the insular communities, the skill level disparities, were making the game fractured.’

It’s true, when you go on one of these dedicated servers, you die immediately. Instantly. He said, we thought maybe it would be cool if the fans could play the game. But, boy, there’s a petition online, 200,000 plus people signed it saying bring back the dedicated servers.

That’s kind of – I don’t know if that’s too inside baseball for us to discuss. I – every time – I’ve tried now to talk about this three different times, and each time the PC guy said, ‘no, no, you’re getting it wrong, you’re getting it wrong.’

Baratunde Thurston From the link you had on the Delicious feed, it sounds like a big benefit was a) you could have a private match going on.

Leo Laporte Right.

Baratunde Thurston But more importantly, you can modify the game and create your own rules. And that level of, kind of, user generated innovation and, kind of, building on the platform of the game is where a lot of these web tools tend to take us. You can do whatever you want on top of their system. These were all violations of the terms of service, of course, and apparently it reduced the quality of the gameplay for some other people. So the people who own the game were like, ‘sorry, hardcore fans who made us who we are –‘

Leo Laporte Right.

Baratunde Thurston ‘We’re big now, we don’t need you anymore.’

Leo Laporte We don’t need you anymore. But the other issue that they don’t bring up, is that it prevents piracy, because if you control the servers, you block people who don’t have legitimate copies. They say 60% of the players were using illegal copies. But maybe this is the real reason and this is from an article that [ph] Fopo Gigio (10:17) just sent me from

‘Activision says you should expect paid-for online models, such as those in World of Warcraft where you pay a monthly fee, to make the transition to other games including Call of Duty. So it may be, what they are saying is, we don’t want you to run servers because we want to charge you a monthly fee to play online.

Baratunde Thurston Right.

Leo Laporte You’re already paying that with Xbox Live. I mean they make a monthly fee off of it. So it make sense that they’d do the same thing to PC players. That’s really what’s going on there.

Baratunde Thurston Money, money, money.

Leo Laporte Well, you know, I guess in one way you can’t blame them because you know that’s their business but, on the other hand, you made $310 million in the first day, maybe you should just let them have the service.

Baratunde Thurston That was – that’s old news, Leo, that’s last week’s news…

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Baratunde Thurston …we want to make money this week and next week and the week after. We can’t sell the game again, so we just slice it up in some monthly instalments. It’s like lay-away plan for the game.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Yeah.

Baratunde Thurston Pretty soon they’ll charge interest on these monthly plans.

Leo Laporte Hey, I want to take a break, we’re going to come back in just a second to talk about why text ads work better than all those blinky ads you see, but right now I want to tell you about my car, my Ford Mustang, do you guys it out front?

Isn’t that sweet, isn’t that sweet? Okay, but actually the ad is not for my car, it’s for the stuff in the car, it’s for the Ford SYNC, this thing is amazing.

Microsoft showed this I remember a couple of years ago at CES and I – you know, at the time I thought, well, that’s kind of cool, but when I started using it, I realized, wow, this is incredible. It’s a hands-free system for not just for your phone, I mean, yeah, you’ve got of course a lot of Bluetooth features you look for, but it also lets you talk to the car and it’s like, it’s like KITT in Knight Rider.

I feel like David Hasselhoff when I get in that thing. I say things like – I press the button on the wheel by the way and you don’t need to look down, you just press a button on the wheel and I say, ‘directions’ and it says, ‘directions, where to?’ and I’ll say ‘Starbucks’, and it tell me the they way to the Starbucks.

There is no screen – there is a little LED screen, but this is not a GPS, like the big GPS system you pay thousands of dollars for, this is the Ford SYNC system, you can say, ‘read text messages’ and if you a compatible phone, it will read you your text messages, you can say, ‘read me the front page of The New York Times,’ it will read you that.

It has – I mean, go on and on. It has 911 Assist, so if you get in an accident, the airbags are deployed, it calls 911, it plays a recorded message, gives you the chance, of course, to override it, if you decide you don’t want to make that call. And then it lets – turn the microphone on in the car, so you can talk to 911. If 911 – and more and more of them are able to this has GPS capability, it will send them the exact GPS location so the emergency crew can go right to where you are.

Vehicle Health Report: I have it set to send me one every 5,000 miles, but at any time I could just say send me a Vehicle Health Report. The car tells me the status of the – of all the systems, I could just go on and on. You get personalized sports; if you’re in a – if you’ve got a Fantasy League, you actually get your Fantasy results, all of it without looking away from the road, with your hands on the wheel – both hands on the wheel. It is amazing. Even personalized traffic reports because it knows your route to school or work.

You can say, ‘play TWiT’, and if you’ve got – you have to of course have TWiT on your device. But if you’ve got TWiT on your MP3 player, it’ll play it and – I mean it’s amazing. This thing is – it’s like Knight Rider, the future’s here.

I want you to take a look at it, the next time you are at a Ford Lincoln or Mercury dealer, say, ‘I want to see the SYNC’, and here is your chance to win a free Nano or Zune by visiting the website:

Just go there; or if you are on Twitter, everybody in the room now, we’ve got a big audience, big studio audience today, just tweet, just tweet something like, ‘listening to TWiT – I’m in the TWiT cottage listening to TWiT with Baratunde and Dvorak and Jarvis,’ and then put the # sign and syncmyridepodcast; all one word #syncmyridepodcast and you’re automatically entered to win a free Nano or Zune, your choice. They’re giving away 15 of each between now and December 8th and all you have do to enter is Tweet – see he’s doing it, look at that, he’s a smart man, he’s doing it on his Android. And you’re use the keyboard; that’s interesting. Yeah, do you find that keyboard useable? No, he’s saying no.

SYNC, but get it right now, syncmyridepodcast and we thank Ford and the great SYNC. By the way, I bought the car, Ford did not buy the car.

Jeff Jarvis Did you get a good price I hope?

Leo Laporte No, I paid loads!

Jeff Jarvis Well that’s silly!

John C. Dvorak So I went to a Mercury dealer and asked to see the SYNC and they sent me to the bathroom.

Leo Laporte You spelled it wrong, you gotta say SYNC

Baratunde Thurston So all these extra capabilities, does the car still function as a vehicle to transport you from A to B or is it just every thing else in life… [indiscernible] (15:20)

Leo Laporte I don’t need to… [indiscernible] (15:20)

Jeff Jarvis You’re so happy to sit in there!

Leo Laporte Exactly.

Baratunde Thurston You just sit in a parking lot all day watching [ph] power vision. (15:24)

Jeff Jarvis It’s like a giant version PC. You are inside of it now.

Leo Laporte It is, it’s so cool. The one I got now, not all of them have this but the one I got has a hard drive in it.

John C. Dvorak Did you get the Shelby 500?

Leo Laporte No I almost did John, I came close but I got the next one down. The GT.

John C. Dvorak The Cobra?

Leo Laporte No I didn’t get a Cobra, I got the GT Premium.

John C. Dvorak The Shelby 500 I think is better than the Cobra and then there’s the GT.

Leo Laporte No they’re the same, there is a GT 500 is the same as a Cobra. [ph] (15:48)

John C. Dvorak No, there’s to Cobra, plain Cobra, then there’s the Shelby 500.

Jeff Jarvis It was your mid-life crisis, definitely. Right there. (15:46)

Leo Laporte It’s not my mid-life crisis Jeff, I want to be very clear about this; it’s my second childhood okay.

John C. Dvorak Is it a convertible?

Leo Laporte No.

John C. Dvorak Well, man, you’re disappointing me here.

Leo Laporte But it is bright candy apple red. John I’ll take you for a ride. It’s beautiful, it’s so beautiful.

John C. Dvorak Alright; that’s a ticket getter.

Leo Laporte I know it is insane. ‘Come here! I am here!’ But it’s got a V8, it’s got so much power and it’s so much…

John C. Dvorak Got a V8, wait a minute. Leo. V8. Leo. Green Leo has got a V8 now.

Leo Laporte Hey I got 20 miles to the gallon when I...

John C. Dvorak You didn’t even get the V8 Lexus engine when you had a Lexus.

Leo Laporte No, I know.

John C. Dvorak Now you’re getting a V8, what changed?

Leo Laporte I don’t commute anymore John. I just drive it, you know…

Jeff Jarvis He just sits in it and does computer things.

Leo Laporte I do. I just sit in it and listen.

John C. Dvorak You start the engine up and gun it.

Leo Laporte I do, I have to admit when I pull up just to make the staff crazy, I gun it. And you know we got that license plate, I’ve ordered it, it hasn’t come yet. It says TWiT TV on the license plate.

Baratunde Thurston Hey.

Leo Laporte Yeah, it’s going to be...

John C. Dvorak No! Uh oh!

Leo Laporte What?

John C. Dvorak We’re talking to stalkers now.

Leo Laporte Aah, everybody knows... Four are people in the studio, just showed up.

John C. Dvorak Stalkers.

Leo Laporte They just showed up. How did you find it?

John C. Dvorak I understand one of this couple – one of the couples there is a –

Leo Laporte Honeymooners.

John C. Dvorak …on their honeymoon and they are in the studio for that reason alone.

Leo Laporte Ben and Chris Patterson got married two days ago. Can I say who you work for Ben?

Ben Patterson (17:16) I work for Pentair.

Leo Laporte You work for who?

Ben Patterson (17:17) I work for Pentair Pool Products.

Leo Laporte Why does it say Sales Force?

Ben Patterson (17:20) Because I’m the administrator for our sales force.

Leo Laporte Oh, I’ve been saying Sales Force. It’s for – what is it, Pentair.

Ben Patterson (17:24) Pentair, P-E-N-T-A-I-R.

Leo Laporte Pool products in North Carolina. And his poor wife is – no, she is a geek too. They are both here and it’s great on their honeymoon.

John C. Dvorak You should show them the secret bedroom upstairs, maybe they could like take a break during one of the commercials.

Leo Laporte We do have a futon.

Jeff Jarvis Or do you run a bed and breakfast out of there too?

John C. Dvorak No.

Leo Laporte It used to be a bed and breakfast. There is a claw foot tub. Next time when you come out Jeff I got to show you there is a claw foot tub upstairs, just made for honeymooners.

Baratunde Thurston Honeymooners, I just want to clarify: They took their honeymoon to TWiT? Or...

Leo Laporte Did you know?

John C. Dvorak To Twit cottage

Ben Patterson (17:58) It’s a detour.

Leo Laporte It’s a detour from the honeymoon.

Baratunde Thurston Like that will be great for TWiT.

Leo Laporte It’s a little weird for them, is what you are saying.

Baratunde Thurston Yeah weird for them, great for the show.

Ben Patterson We’ll tell everybody that.

Leo Laporte They are not the first honeymooners to come here, to be honest with you.

John C. Dvorak So we are going to do any news today, just curious…

Leo Laporte Yahoo! pulls the plug after 14 years on Geocities. Founded in 1995, Yahoo! bought it in 1999. 7 million of the Internet’s first websites lost for ever, are we sad?

John C. Dvorak Do we know how much they paid for it originally?

Leo Laporte I could find out.

John C. Dvorak And then we need to know how much they paid for it and then how much money they lost running it.

Leo Laporte This is another one of those great Yahoo! moments right?

Jeff Jarvis You know I don’t want to plug the book here but I say in there that Yahoo! is the last old media company and they asked the question ‘what are we really?’ And they gave the wrong answer. They said ‘we are showbiz!’ What they really were and AOL too, was Facebook before there was Facebook.

Leo Laporte Right. Boy, they had an opportunity!

Jeff Jarvis They had all the tools that let you create...

John C. Dvorak ‘They dropped the ball more often than...’ punch line? Come on comic.

Jeff Jarvis AOL Time Warner.

Ben Patterson I don’t follow sports involving balls of any kind. [ph] I don’t do playing with oil on the pigskin. (19:12)

Jeff Jarvis Here is the number, here is the number: 3.66 billion.

Leo Laporte They paid more for Geocitites than they did for

Jeff Jarvis Yeah 3.6. That’s why [indiscernible] Peabody’s (19:20) a happy guy. And more than Google did for YouTube.

Baratunde Thurston And that’s why they wanted to delete it; they want no record of this transaction to be in their history.

Leo Laporte Yeah, no kidding. More than YouTube!

John C. Dvorak This company’s has pissed away more money than – it’s unbelievable.

Leo Laporte But they were spending funny money because it was – it was their stock IPO, right?

Jeff Jarvis Danny Sullivan reported it in February 2, 1999.

Leo Laporte 3 billion, unimaginable.

Jeff Jarvis 3.6, don’t go forget the point six.

John C. Dvorak 3.6; get it straight.

Baratunde Thurston That’s a lot of money in that a point six.

Leo Laporte 600 million here or there, does that really matter?

Baratunde Thurston I’ll tell you what, I was having a conversation...

Jeff Jarvis And in today-dollars, that’s probably about 10.

Baratunde Thurston …with a friend in grad school at CMU, and we’ve been talking about how do you document the Internet’s history, and if you’re looking 10, 15 or 100 years from now, how will we record this period and how will we share it? Will there be installations and I think, though, the sad part for me which is a little tragic is that they just deleted it. It’s like not storage costs anything, there is no technical reason why this can’t just sit there, as part of our collective history of this new fantastic and crazy medium.

John C. Dvorak And rot.

Leo Laporte Buy a 1.5 terabyte drive for 112 bucks.

Baratunde Thurston And you can have it! We can all have our own copy of GeoCities.

Leo Laporte I mean it couldn’t be more than a terabyte and a half, I mean those sites right? It can’t be that much.

John C. Dvorak I think you are making a good point, we could have our own GeoCities or somebody could have just said, could have just turned it over to some – you know, like and kept the thing going for forever.

Baratunde Thurston Yeah.

Leo Laporte Well that’s – people were are upset.

Baratunde Thurston So how did that happen, though? I mean this is – we are in the age of transparency and everybody knew this was coming, nobody ran over with a thumb drive to the GeoCities headquarters and said ‘wait a minute, let me copy that first?’

Leo Laporte A fun drive. A fun drive! All right, 7 million sites, let’s assume that the site, the average site is a megabyte, right probably most are smaller.

John C. Dvorak No, no, no that’s too low.

Jeff Jarvis Oh, smaller.

Leo Laporte Oh, yeah smaller. You think they’re more than a megabyte?

John C. Dvorak People save – they save their photos and there’s a lot of [indiscernible] (21:22).

Baratunde Thurston Images.

Jeff Jarvis Oh, 512k, yeah.

Leo Laporte Alright.

John C. Dvorak Assume a gigabyte, then it’s still only 7 terabytes which you can buy at Costco.

Baratunde Thurston For $50.

John C. Dvorak 75 bucks a terabyte, so I mean it’s not that much. You’re talking about 5, 600 bucks.

Jeff Jarvis You could put it on Google forever; they just lowered the price of their storage. You could put it in your Gmail account.

Baratunde Thurston You really could, for 50 bucks a year.

John C. Dvorak Just set up a bunch of Gmail accounts.

Leo Laporte So there is – they’re telling me in the chatroom, there is this site called Here lies it says ‘what we could salvage from the ashes of GeoCites.’ So maybe apparently they have saved some of it, I don’t know.

John C. Dvorak The question is do we want to?

Baratunde Thurston I think no matter how ugly it’s part of us, John. Like, we have to look back and learn from our history and say ‘never again, never again.’

Leo Laporte Never again!

John C. Dvorak Never again and take a look at this; HTML 1.

Leo Laporte HTML 1? Is that what it’s written in?

John C. Dvorak No, I mean, I am sure most of the sites are in HTML 1.

Jeff Jarvis Are they all grey?

Leo Laporte Grey background; that great Netscape grey background, remember that? Oh, that was ugly.

Jeff Jarvis You know I thought it was all ugly, Geocities at the beginning, and it’s probably all better looking than MySpace.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Speaking of MySpace, shall we bring up the Rupert Murdoch story, Jeff?

Jeff Jarvis Oh, what the hell.

Leo Laporte Rupert Murdoch, a paragon of brilliance in the media – the old media, has decided that Google is just a bunch of plagiarists, they are stealing my content.

Jeff Jarvis Get off the lawn you kids!

Leo Laporte Get off of my lawn! I am trying to run a newspaper here and what are they doing, they are nothing. So he has decided that – when is this going to be, next year sometime, they’re going – he’s…

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, some time. They’re going to put up a wall and they are going to threaten to pull out of Google.

Baratunde Thurston See you.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, sure.

Leo Laporte I am going to pull out!

John C. Dvorak Let’s take this, let’s put a pool together and bet on that one.

Leo Laporte Yeah, there is no way.

Jeff Jarvis I will give you one penny on that one, it’s not going to happen, it’s just – it’s just macho sword-waving.

John C. Dvorak Posturing, posturing is the word.

Baratunde Thurston Negotiation tactics here, what is this?

Jeff Jarvis Well they are renegotiating the $300 million deal for MySpace that Google did and MySpace didn’t earn their end of the bargain.

Leo Laporte What’s the deal, that was a search deal?

Jeff Jarvis It was an ad guarantee deal and so if they got a certain amount of traffic they had to get, they’d get $300 million from Google. And I wish I had this in front of me, I don’t, I think it came in something like $100 million short.

Leo Laporte Wow. MySpace is just dying on the volume; it’s kind of sad.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, I don’t know what to do.

Leo Laporte ‘I am going to take MySpace behind the pay wall!’

Baratunde Thurston So, what is that, what is the…

Jeff Jarvis I went through Murdoch’s earlier disasters on the internet. I worked for Delphi Internet, which was actually – it was the first consumer service to bring the internet to anybody and then that morphed to something called iGuide, which was a terrible disaster; millions of dollars, huge loft space in Manhattan now empty and everybody forgets Murdoch has had many disasters on the internet.

Leo Laporte I remember that iGuide, he built a newsroom that was stunning.

Jeff Jarvis It was beautiful.

Leo Laporte Did it ever go online, I mean did anything ever happen?

Jeff Jarvis Well it did, but briefly; then they changed strategy about 10 times and I think it became TV Guide Online; [with heavy sarcasm] that’s a good idea. And then it died a terrible death the way the whole company might, now. I am being bitter.

You know, when I worked for them they were fine and there were smart people, but they don’t know the internet, Michael Wolf said that Rupert Murdoch a year ago had never used Google.

Leo Laporte A year ago.

Jeff Jarvis So I doubt he’s started now.

Leo Laporte In a way it’s great.

John C. Dvorak What?

Leo Laporte Now that Strom Thurmond is gone and some of the other paragons of earlier centuries are gone, we need somebody like that. You know, we don’t have Senator Stevens to kick around anymore. The Internet needs people like Rupert Murdoch.

Jeff Jarvis Those are my pipes!

Leo Laporte Yeah!

Baratunde Thurston Is the idea of puling out of sort of blocking Google’s crawler that they will make a deal with another search engine? Or that they – you’ll have to go directly to the property?

Jeff Jarvis Right that was Jason Calacanis and then Mike Arrington in turn speculated about, arguing that The New York Times and News Corp. should pull out and make a deal with Bing. But The New York Times also owns which gets 80% of its traffic and 50% of its ad revenue from Google. So I don’t think that’s going to happen.

John C. Dvorak Funny thing you mentioned Jeff – do you realized that in 1993 Delphi which was the first Internet connection was sold to Rupert Murdock.

Leo Laporte I think he does realize that.

Jeff Jarvis Right. [Indiscernible] (26:10).

Leo Laporte He was there.

John C. Dvorak And then I guess he sold that because he couldn’t deal with and he sold it, apparently in 1996 I am reading of course from a dubious source, it was down to less than 5,000 by some accounts.

Leo Laporte Wow, I had a Delphi account; I loved Delphi.

Jeff Jarvis Delphi was great. When I got there...

Leo Laporte Delphi was one of the big three.

Jeff Jarvis They were trying to create their own AOL Prodigy-like GUI; it was a disaster.

Leo Laporte I remember.

Jeff Jarvis And just – I was there, just at the moment when Netscape was released. And I was among those who said – you know I think you might want to try this web thing. And they kept going for a long time and then I quit.

Baratunde Thurston Go on the Internet; just go on the Internet, yeah.

Leo Laporte So when did you Jeff, when did you kind of start seeing the – because you’re an old media guy...

Jeff Jarvis I’m an old guy, yeah.

Leo Laporte Like me, an old guy.

John C. Dvorak Like an old, old media guy.

Jeff Jarvis Right.

Leo Laporte When did you start seeing the light? Were you working at Us Magazine?

Jeff Jarvis At People.

Leo Laporte I am sorry, People.

Jeff Jarvis And that’s one inch above – in the evolutionary scale of slime.

Leo Laporte Yeah, but you said it very quickly, ‘D’oh no, not Us; People!’

Jeff Jarvis I got my Osborne 1 in ’81. And I was on the Source and all that stuff and I saw it coming and when I was a TV Guide that News Corp. I was, you know, going to Usenet groups to talk about TV shows.

Leo Laporte Wow.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, so...

Leo Laporte So you earned your credentials. I remember...

Jeff Jarvis But Dvorak’s, been around at least 3 years longer than I have.

Leo Laporte When he was a [indiscernible] (27:37).

John C. Dvorak I was in the Internet in ‘45!

Leo Laporte John, you were on – you were on the Source I remember. I was on CompuServe and I think I used Delphi and Genie.

John C. Dvorak I had both the Source and CompuServe because I [indiscernible] (27:50).

Jeff Jarvis CompuServe I preferred.

Leo Laporte Yeah I liked CompuServe.

John C. Dvorak [Indiscernible] (27:54) The Source was kind of disappointing one.

Jeff Jarvis 71435, 1183 I think that was my number.

Leo Laporte 75106, 3135.

John C. Dvorak You notice there were never any eights or nine’s in any of those numbers because all the computers were octal machines.

Leo Laporte You’re kidding!

Jeff Jarvis Baratunde wasn’t born yet.

Baratunde Thurston No, no I actually – I created the Internet so I got that going for me.

John C. Dvorak Okay.

Leo Laporte Hey you’re Psiloning again; unplug and plug in.

Baratunde Thurston Oh man.

Leo Laporte Pull out Baratunde!

John C. Dvorak Octal machines to the end.

Leo Laporte Pull out. Here we go.

Baratunde Thurston That is just painful.

John C. Dvorak Pull out.

Baratunde Thurston All right, so can you hear me now?

Leo Laporte Yeah but you’re coming through your laptop mic, you have set the – sometimes when you pull out …

Baratunde Thurston Now it sounds better.

Leo Laporte Here it is, it’s all better.

Baratunde Thurston Okay.

John C. Dvorak Sometimes when you pulled out the laptop pulls in.

Baratunde Thurston I usewd to go to these local BBS systems and then I find a way to hack in to the open Internet trough the Montgomery County public library system.

Leo Laporte Oh wow.

Baratunde Thurston So I could go in through their card catalogue, you could dial in to their cart catalogue and then if you hit the right links, you’d find this open door and it was just a prompt, and from there I could telnet into wherever I wanted to end up. This is in, maybe mid ‘94 and I was so proud of myself, I felt like such a little hacker.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis You’ve got the credentials.

Leo Laporte Were you using Gofer?

Baratunde Thurston I was using Gofer! I was – I remember Gofer, yeah.

John C. Dvorak Gofer.

Leo Laporte I had this kind of similar experience; I was on The WELL which was…

John C. Dvorak The WELL.

Leo Laporte The WELL; the Whole Earth Electronic Link and that was – that was started by the Whole Earth folks and the WELL you can drop out of – they had forum software basically, very primitive. It was green text on a black screen but you could drop out of it to a shell prompt and then you could use links to browse.

Jeff Jarvis Right.

Leo Laporte But I remember very well, the first time when I got on link, I used – I was using mostly Gofer which was a menuing system, but the first time I used links and they were probably not very many sites, and this must have been – it’s roughly through the same time ‘92, ‘91, ‘93 somewhere around there. But I got – for the first time ever the experience that – wow there’s a lot of people out there. You know and now of course, it’s commonplace but that first experience of wow, there’s a lot of people using this, it’s pretty transformative I think…

Baratunde Thurston Yeah.

Leo Laporte Do you remember your first experience?

John C. Dvorak So that’s a fascinating story Leo, what else have urgh... [falls asleep]

Leo Laporte We missed you John.

John C. Dvorak You know that – remember, was it, what was the one; Trinity? That predated Prodigy was called something else.

Leo Laporte Well, Prodigy, wasn’t that based on the Minitel stuff that France did?

John C. Dvorak No, there was this – but they had another name for it, something Triton or Trinton – Trinton or something…

Leo Laporte You don’t think it’s Quantum, QuantumLink?

John C. Dvorak No, no, no. Just the name of the thing before they changed its name – this was when the first investor – I don’t remember. Somebody can look it up and pass it along.

Leo Laporte Somebody will tell you.

John C. Dvorak But I remember that they were going to do that system and it was – they were going to put ads all over the place and everybody was upset, oh, they were so upset about these ads. And now we are doing podcasts with ads.

Leo Laporte Welll…

John C. Dvorak There is your segue.

Leo Laporte And now ladies and gentlemen, I’d like to tell you a little bit about our good friends at Citrix, the makers of GoToMeeting. Should I do it? I should do it, why not. We are here. You put us here John. But I do want to – I do want to talk a little bit about when the National Science Foundation, I think it was ’95 when they said, okay now you can run commercials on the internet. Before then, you couldn’t. So we’ll talk about that in a second.

Baratunde Thurston Do you guys remember telephones?

Leo Laporte Yeah, 300 baud!

John C. Dvorak When I was a kid, we only used rocks.

Leo Laporte I love it. I want to talk about the folks at GoToMeeting. I mean these guys have been around since – since that very – those early days. Citrix is one of the first internet remote access companies. They kind of invented the product. Microsoft licensed it, I mean you probably experienced it in Windows, in fact you can still run Citrix server. They do a whole host of consumer interfaces to this incredible remote access technology, including GoToMeeting. Now let me tell you a little bit about GoToMeeting. It is the way, if you are going to do online meetings to do it, there are other products out there, I am well aware of that, but this is the one we use.

We use it sometimes on the podcasts so that people can show us their screens while they’re on Skype. We use it for meetings all the time. In fact sometimes people say, ‘oh I want to use’ – I won’t say any names – ‘oh I want to use XYZ, technology’ and I say ‘sorry can we use GoToMeeting instead’ and I’ll start the meeting and say okay, and I’ll give them control, and say now show me your PowerPoint, or your Keynote, now show me the slides of the presentation. It’s for collaborating, for training, for product demos, for sales. There isn’t anything better. It’s the best and it’s really good. #

It’s secure, 128-bit encryption. You’ll save money; it’s only $49 a month for as many meetings as you want, as long as you want. And that includes free voice-over-internet protocol and free teleconferencing. Why waste time and money going to meetings flying across the country, driving across town? Save money, save stress, use GoToMeeting. I want you to try it free. We – I love our sponsors because they are really great on giving you a chance to try it. They trust that you will – they know you want to see it and they trust that you will, if something is really good, that you will buy it. So try it free for 30 days. Go to

Somebody sent me an e-mail saying ‘I bet there’s a lot of people going to and because it’s always “go to”’. Sometimes I say ‘go to’ but that’s even more confusing. So just – just the website is Give it a try today. I know you are going to love it. GoToMeeting from the folks at Citrix. Thank you for that segue. What was that – was it ’94, ’95, do you remember? the National Science Foundation said ‘okay, you can now send commercial traffic over the internet.’ It was that recently, I’m pretty sure.


Jeff Jarvis Well, it had to be by ’94 because that’s when the first, I think, ads went up on HotWired, the very first banner.

Leo Laporte So it’s probably right then?

Jeff Jarvis Yes.

Leo Laporte I was – John and I were doing the radio show when it happened. I remember very well when the NSF said okay, we relinquish kind of our non-commercial rules on the internet and we’ll allow – boy, that’s – and at the time I remember thinking ‘this could be really bad.’

Baratunde Thurston Yeah, so everybody was against it.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Baratunde Thurston I still remember when businesses decided it was okay to announce that they had a website and so they’d go add these little taglines to their commercial with the URL. But they would just mess up the whole syntax. It would be http//ww. – it was like ‘what?’ – like you just broke something.

Leo Laporte . What are you typing? When we started doing this site, which was the MSNBC show we started in ’96, they would – on all of the graphics they put on the screen, they’d tap http:// and I said, you guys you probably could leave that off, no browser requires that, you are wasting a lot of space. And then I remember at TechTV a couple of years later saying you could also leave out the www, let’s simplify this a little bit.

John C. Dvorak There was a period of time there where for some reason if you didn’t set your server right, if you didn’t put www…

Leo Laporte Oh yes.

John C. Dvorak It would die.

Leo Laporte You can still – it can still do that. Most people…

Jeff Jarvis Oh, I still see people who set them up wrong, yes.

Leo Laporte Yes, most people know better. But it’s completely possible to set it up that if you – don’t – and in fact every once in a while I’ll find a place like that; I’m thinking what are they thinking, who are these people?

John C. Dvorak Talking about memory lane, remember the FidoNet?

Leo Laporte I was a FidoNet sysop.

Baratunde Thurston Yes.

Leo Laporte Were you Baratunde? Your BBS?

Baratunde Thurston I wasn’t a sysop, I had friends who were sysops and sysadmins and they gave me privileges but I never operated one myself.

Leo Laporte The guy who wrote FidoNet was Tom Jennings, remember him, John?

John C. Dvorak Yes, actually we gave him a Dvorak award one year.

Leo Laporte Yes.

John C. Dvorak First time I ever met him, actually, he was quite a character.

Leo Laporte He was a real – I wonder what he is doing? I ran a FidoNet BBS…

John C. Dvorak Like a Goth. (36:01)

Leo Laporte Yes, yes, he was a little whack.

Jeff Jarvis Google him.

John C. Dvorak There you go!

Leo Laporte Well, he is on Wikipedia, let’s see, there – oh wow, he’s gained in age. He is now…

Baratunde Thurston Which happens with time. He is old.

Jeff Jarvis And you haven’t Leo.

Leo Laporte No, I look exactly the same. He’s gained in age. He – it says he is now a technician at the University of California, Irvine, I read…

Jeff Jarvis I hate to say it, but he looks like he is on the witness stand.

Leo Laporte I think he might be. I think he might be. He created FidoNet, I ran a FidoNet clone called MacQ in 1984. It was a Macintosh BBS in the early days of the Mac. He – so we got to get a hold of him; he works at the University of California, Irvine. I wonder if he does any [ph] programming (36:53). But that was a very empowering thing; this was before the days of the Internet. I had two modems, they were 1200 baud and it was so hard to get…

Baratunde Thurston Blazing.

Leo Laporte Yes. That was blazing…

John C. Dvorak Why did you have two, what was the point?

Leo Laporte Two lines. Two modems, two lines. I was very sophisticated. Some of the BBS’s would like have four lines. They had a – that was really expensive. And I remember…

John C. Dvorak You were – yes, you were taking stuff in? People were calling you for…

Leo Laporte Yes, I was running the BBS.

John C. Dvorak And you only had two? I saw guys having – guys had racks of these things.

Leo Laporte I know.

John C. Dvorak What a cheap guy you are.

Leo Laporte John used to write for Boardwatch magazine so he knows of that, a little bit about this. I remember that. And I had – I remember when Seagate came out with their 20 megabyte MFM drives; that was a big deal. I could have 20 megabytes of storage, not gigabytes.

John C. Dvorak Yes.

Jeff Jarvis I think…

John C. Dvorak Yes, you were locked [ph] in a room (37:46) – and by the way those things cost a mint.

Leo Laporte Oh yes, they were really expensive.

John C. Dvorak Like a thousand bucks.

Jeff Jarvis I think I have – one had 96k, does that sound right?

Leo Laporte Yes. They, okay, what was it…

Baratunde Thurston Yes, 9600.

Leo Laporte Yes, it was…

John C. Dvorak 9600 baud modem.

Baratunde Thurston 9.6k.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Jeff Jarvis But also the memory.

Baratunde Thurston Oh, memory.

Jeff Jarvis What did the – what did the original 5 inch disk take?

Leo Laporte They were single sided; single density, was I think 120k.

John C. Dvorak 128.

Leo Laporte 128.

Jeff Jarvis 128, yes.

Leo Laporte And then you would – there was a trick where you’d punch a hole in it so you could flip the floppy over and…

John C. Dvorak Oh, yes.

Leo Laporte Remember that?

John C. Dvorak Oh yes, that’s hilarious.

Jeff Jarvis Well, this is old fogey week here.

John C. Dvorak It wouldn’t always work; you had to format and see if it worked.

Leo Laporte So the chat room says…

John C. Dvorak Format and verify.

Leo Laporte Format and verify. That’s right. Chat room says a 78k, 160k, and a 180k. The double sided were 320, the first Mac floppies, the diskettes, those hard diskettes, those were 400k, I remember that.

John C. Dvorak K?

Jeff Jarvis That was luxurious.

Leo Laporte Oh it was tons. Although…

John C. Dvorak Remember that crazy one that Steve Jobs tried to put on the first Lisa, what was that called?

Leo Laporte The Twiggy.

John C. Dvorak The Twiggy, yes.

Leo Laporte And the problem with that was….

John C. Dvorak It had holes all over the place.

Leo Laporte The hole for the data read where the head went was right where you would hold the disk to put it in. It was so stupid. I don’t know how we got off on this tangent. Let’s get back to the big, big…

Jeff Jarvis The chat room says it’s This Week in Old Farts.

Leo Laporte It is.

John C. Dvorak Yay! This is This Week in Old Farts.

Baratunde Thurston I’m just humoring…

Leo Laporte Yes, how did you get here Baratunde? What the how the hell did that happen?

Baratunde Thurston No because I’ve been on – because in Internet years I’m pretty old. I’ve been on since ’94, which was pre-Mosaic, I have links credentials, I got FidoNet cred, I’ve got Gopher cred, I got some hacker skills, in fact here is my last oldschool story which is you used to be able to Telnet directly into the mail port on a domain, so I used to use Yale’s email system to fake emails because you could just manually type out the headers that you wanted that email to see…

Leo Laporte You know what….

Baratunde Thurston And most people didn’t know how to expose full headers at that time to…

Leo Laporte You can still – don’t tell anybody – you can still do that.

Baratunde Thurston What!

Leo Laporte Yes.

Baratunde Thurston They haven’t closed that?

Leo Laporte You can Telnet to port 25, absolutely.

Baratunde Thurston That’s fifteen years old.

Leo Laporte And you could, if you know what to type, you can type the whole session, am I right? You guys are sysadmins, absolutely.

Baratunde Thurston I assumed that they had closed that one. I’ll be right back…

Leo Laporte No; this is the problem with email. There’s no authentication; you can do anything you want. You just Telnet into port 25 and if you know the right things to type... Now you were at Harvard when you were doing this, were you faking Yale emails?

Baratunde Thurston No, I was in high school when I was doing this.

John C. Dvorak Faking Yale emails; why?

Baratunde Thurston It was just that they had a cool domain name, it was like minerva.sys.yale it was all these gods...

Jeff Jarvis That’s right. [Sings] Memories...

Leo Laporte Well this is kind of fun, huh?

Jeff Jarvis [Singing] Oh what geeks we used to be...

John C. Dvorak Yeah, we need to get back on the news.

Baratunde Thurston Let’s get back to the [indiscernible] (40:43) that’s a good point.

Leo Laporte All right, so let’s talk about the tech – this is actually kid of interesting; Jakob Nielsen who is fantastic, he is – Nielsen Norman Group, but a real expert on web usability. They have a new book; you’re going to love this...

Jeff Jarvis Then why doesn’t his site look something other than sh*t? I’ve always...

John C. Dvorak What, you’re asking why his site doesn’t look like it was designed in 1989?

Jeff Jarvis Yeah!

Leo Laporte Now I gotta look at the site... oh, you’re right. It’s hideous!

Jeff Jarvis It’s awful!

Leo Laporte Wait a minute, you’re absolutely right.

Jeff Jarvis He’s always held up as if some kind of guru of usability; I wouldn’t use this for 20 seconds! I’m sounding like Dvorak.

John C. Dvorak Ah, you’re sounding like me. I like Jakob, he’s a nice guy, but you’re right; his sites are dull.

Leo Laporte He wrote the book on industrial design; The Design of Everyday Things which I think is brilliant, but you’re kind of right, his site is not so hot. Now that I look at it...

Anyway, they have a new book, which has the catchy title of Eyetracking Web Usability. But what they do, which is not so catchy, but very interesting is track eye movements using, I guess some sort of...

John C. Dvorak Yeah, they have some cameras that do it. They – this is old by the way. There used to be a website, and I wish I – I’ve unfortunately lost it, but I remember seeing this site around ’99 that actually did this to most of the sites, they would – they were doing eyeball tracking.

Leo Laporte Yeah, it’s very cool.

John C. Dvorak And then they had all this crazy data about it, like why this works and why that works and why this doesn’t work and know.

Leo Laporte Well, so here’s the – kind of a surprising, maybe counter-intuitive but I think very important result that they got. Among other things, participants in the study looked at 52% of the ads, 52% of ads that contained only text, 52% of ads that had images and text separately and 51% of sponsored links on search engine ads. So in other words, they’re tracking the eye movements as they’re looking at these ads.

Ads that got less attention included those that posed text on top of images; 35%, ones that included animation, you know; ‘Punch the Monkey’; 29%. But the ads that had text only did as well as the ads with images.

Jeff Jarvis But isn’t that really a Google factor where Google – it’s an issue not of the design but of the relevance?

Leo Laporte Ah, yes, so they don’t take that into account.

Jeff Jarvis Right. It’s – the reason Google ads work is because they have relevance and it’s also tied to the experience you’re going under right then. As opposed to at Google – you know, sells that per click value, banners sell the old-media model of messages and impressions and scarcity. That’s the dichotomy.

Leo Laporte Here’s something that might confirm that –

John C. Dvorak I’m going to interrupt too. I think Jarvis is onto something here. The fact of the matter is if you’re in an environment where text is the primary mode of communications, obviously people are going to be attracted to it. As opposed to some – something like, even when Punch the Monkey was up there it never looked like the rest of the site; it was just an obvious ad and it was annoying.

But if you got into, let’s say a very media-rich site that had lots of pictures and photos and little captions to the photos, you’d have to – I think you’d have to study that separately, because if you’re looking – for example, when you see a magazine, and you see advertising that is like – typically the advertising feels like the magazine does. And people who don’t have the right kind of publishers will let anybody advertise anything. And there’s nothing worse than going through a magazine and then you find some ad that looks like a cheap ad that doesn’t belong in this magazine. It makes the company look like a cheap company and you would never buy their product in a million years.

So there’s a lot of variables here which aren’t being discussed, and I think they’re probably just as important as the notion that yeah, text is great. If you can slip in a paragraph in the middle of a news story saying to go buy a product, that’s probably pretty effective.

Leo Laporte That’s the way to do it. Or like the ads we do, which…

John C. Dvorak But it has to be in the same type font.

Leo Laporte Well the ads we do are kind of indistinguishable from the content, right? We say we are going to do an ad but it kind of blends in.

John C. Dvorak Because – that’s because you’re a pro.

Baratunde Thurston Yes, because you have that voice which announces, in that beautiful, sonorous announcer voice...

Leo Laporte Right, and now a word from Bose Wave Machines.

Baratunde Thurston There is one more thing I would pile on with Jeff and John which is they are assuming that this is trying to assess sort of click per action or cost per action sort of direct response ads rather than branding. You can’t brand with a text message.

Leo Laporte Well, they are watching the eyeballs, so you are right it’s about click, but they are watching what eyeballs are looking at. Well here is an example and I get this on my Facebook page, I don’t maybe it’s just me, when I go to my Facebook page there’s always a busty woman on the right hand side, have you noticed that?

John C. Dvorak That’s your page.

Baratunde Thurston Just take that sticker off your monitor Leo.

Jeff Jarvis That’s you.

John C. Dvorak It’s targeted, Leo, it’s targeted.

Baratunde Thurston Don’t blame Facebook, don’t blame Facebook really.

Jeff Jarvis I get Yale dissertations on mine.

Leo Laporte Yeah I bet. [ph] Chris, (45:57) do you get busty women on your Facebook page? We have a woman in here.

Jeff Jarvis Let’s see it, go ahead, go there.

Leo Laporte All right, I’m going to show you, I will go to my Facebook page, you guys don’t believe me…

Jeff Jarvis Put them on.

Leo Laporte So – and by the way busty and inappropriately so, I mean like not normal.

John C. Dvorak Well you know, again, targeted.

Leo Laporte At me, you mean?

John C. Dvorak Yeah!

Leo Laporte But the interesting result – okay, first I’m going to show you the page and…

John C. Dvorak I get dusty women, is that a difference?

Leo Laporte Busty or dusty, I don’t know.

Jeff Jarvis I get Mark Benioff’s book on mine. Boy, do I lead a dull life...

John C. Dvorak See? Oh, the busty woman, Mark Benioff, you know, what’s the difference.

Jeff Jarvis This is what happens after prostate surgery.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis They know you don’t care anymore.

Leo Laporte Stop with the busty women, Jarvis has got nothing. Unfortunately it’s not working right now, I am getting a tomato can label and then being asked to donate to [ph] Mureglen (46:38). Oh rats. But I used to get busty woman, let me refresh.

John C. Dvorak Refresh.

Leo Laporte Connect with more friends…

Jeff Jarvis So Baratunde, what are the advertisers’ sweet spots for the Onion, what works with the Onion?

Baratunde Thurston Well, I think the types of people that come to our site, they want – our age group which is slightly younger, a little bit more educated and smarter because you have to be that to get the material. So we get a lot of entertainment, new TV shows, movie releases, game title releases, alcohol unsurprisingly, so you know, liquor companies and beer companies come through, not so much with software. We’ve had – EVE Online’s been on the site a whole lot.

Leo Laporte That’s like a sex thing, right?

Baratunde Thurston No, no, no, EVE Online is a massive multiplayer videogame that has…

Jeff Jarvis Leo, where is your mind today?

Leo Laporte Never mind.

Baratunde Thurston From busty women….

Jeff Jarvis Sex sites and big busty women...

Leo Laporte Never mind!

Baratunde Thurston It’s not Facebook Leo, it’s you.

Leo Laporte No, it’s – you know what it’s – oh great, now I am looking at my Facebook page and it’s an ad for soup, I would rather have…

John C. Dvorak Soup?

Leo Laporte I like shoup! It’sh not too much to chew!

Jeff Jarvis It’s heard you talking tonight.

Leo Laporte Well, anyway, I used to get busty women, I must have crossed some line.

Baratunde Thurston You might want to double check your cookies, we got to look at your web history, Leo, and see why that is…

Leo Laporte So they tested these ads – to get back to the point – they tested these ads and according to TIME magazine the guy came across a dating service ad, they are watching his eyeballs, his pupils, featuring a bikini clad woman, he looked at the woman’s face and chest once and then at the surrounding text five times. So even in that case the text was better.

Baratunde Thurston And was his wife or girlfriend looking over his shoulder at the time?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, but what about if it was a can of soup would that happen? I mean maybe he is looking at the woman saying ‘wow, this girl is hot’ and he is reading, he says ‘wait, she’s living near me, she is here, I can date her? I’m going to read that again.’

Leo Laporte You get those ads too, you get those ads too! You admit it, now you know – I know you get those ads because that’s what it says, this lovely young lady who lives in Oakland, California would like to meet you. I am getting – I am not kidding, look at it; Campbell’s Soup.

John C. Dvorak Yeah I know I have seen these, these are the ads from that group, that FriendFinder group and they do this and they have the same pictures of the same women all over the country, it’s there’s – this woman is not living nearby, this is bogus! They should do something about it so you keep looking at it, this it bull!

Leo Laporte Yeah, she doesn’t live here! I can’t…

John C. Dvorak She doesn’t live here, she doesn’t live around here, she is a model or something or they stole the photo, I have no idea.

Jeff Jarvis I think that’s an Onion story. ‘Woman who wants sex with you doesn’t.’

Leo Laporte ‘Doesn’t live here.’ ‘Doesn’t live nearby.’

Baratunde Thurston I’ll tell you something else creepy about – we do have a lot more ability to track what happens with adverting than we have ever had and one of the segments for the future show that I was working on, we visited this company called NeuroFocus up in Berkeley, California actually, and they put electrodes on your head and they track your attention to the 30 second spot or whatever you are looking at, your retention of what you saw, and your emotional engagement with what you saw plus eye tracking, so they have millisecond level understanding of just how you respond to that ad, and then will tweak it for future reference to have even more effective impact on your brain cells…

Leo Laporte I am scared.

John C. Dvorak I can imagine they are putting sensors in other places too.

Leo Laporte Philip K. Dick…

Baratunde Thurston It’s all happening.

Leo Laporte …wrote about this in – that had nothing to do with John’s comment, that was just a coincidence.

Jeff Jarvis We let it go Leo, we let it go.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Wrote – wrote many a story where ads are on every surface and they are targeting you, in fact Cory Doctorow has a story where the ads know everything about you and they are on everything. They are moving ads on the packages and they sense who you are and they show – I think this is just a matter of time.

Moving along, the Space Shuttle Atlantis launch will be Twittered.

John C. Dvorak Oh, great.

Leo Laporte NASA is sending 100 of its Twitter followers to Cape Canaveral for tomorrow’s launch of Atlantis. They awarded tickets to the first 100 people to register on the site. It’s a Tweet-up at the launch site.

Jeff Jarvis What are you going to say?

John C. Dvorak Oh, please.

Jeff Jarvis It’s up? It’s going?

John C. Dvorak It’s loud.

Leo Laporte It’s a big fire ball. Oh no, the humanity! I think this is...

Baratunde Thurston How did they pick the people who get to go?

Leo Laporte First 100 people who signed up.

John C. Dvorak Scam.

Jeff Jarvis If they picked a tweeter to go up in the thing that would be news.

John C. Dvorak Then we’d be talking, yeah.

Baratunde Thurston Ooh, I’d do that, I’d love to do that.

John C. Dvorak And they should in fact load up the ship with a bunch of them, just get them off the planet.


Leo Laporte What? Just all the twitterers? That would be a good idea. Get off of my planet, you twitterers.

NASA has used its astronauts to tweet from space in May, astromike. That’s so sad that they make the astronauts have handles to begin with ‘astro’.

Baratunde Thurston They could have put NASA, that would be less corny.

Leo Laporte And now astrojeff and astronicole are also on the list of tweeting astronauts. Oh this is embarrassing.

John C. Dvorak Sounds like a rock band from the 50s.

Leo Laporte It’s insane. ‘I am a tweeting astronaut.’ That’s all – the dignity is gone. Just shot down.

Jeff Jarvis The dignity!

Baratunde Thurston It never was there.

Leo Laporte Never was there? That’s sad.

John C. Dvorak I am peeing in my diapers.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, the dignity left then.

Leo Laporte You’re right. So how about the 19-year old who was arrested and put in Rikers Island for robbing two men in Brooklyn who has been exonerated by Facebook.

Jeff Jarvis That’s so cool.

Baratunde Thurston It’s cool and disturbing. This kid was in jail for 12 days.

Leo Laporte For 12 days. Rikers Island is no...

Baratunde Thurston They let him out once they verified that he sent this Facebook message from his father’s house in Harlem. Now, he was at his father’s house with his whole family and their statements weren’t good enough to get this kid out of jail. But then they went to Facebook and were like ‘oh, well Facebook says you were there. So we’ll let you go’.

John C. Dvorak That is absolutely – yeah that’s a great observation.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah. It really is, Baratunde. But you are a hacker, Baratunde, couldn’t you have hacked it to make-believe you were in your father’s house back in the day?

Baratunde Thurston I think you just gave me a great criminal enterprise, Jeff, thank you.

Leo Laporte Alibis!

Baratunde Thurston [ph] Drop by (52:55)

John C. Dvorak Law and order.

Leo Laporte That’s the new Facebook ad, forget the busty girls. You need an alibi?

Baratunde Thurston ‘There’s an app for that.’ Oh, yeah.

Leo Laporte There’s an app for that? See now, now I am getting a different ad. Win front row tickets to see Vince Neil live. See, I am not happy about that. Bring back the busty girls. What’s with the soup and Vince Neil?

Jeff Jarvis This is bugging you.

Leo Laporte It’s bugging me.

Jeff Jarvis This was part of your identity, the busty girls.

Leo Laporte I am happy for Rodney Bradford, I feel bad that he spent 12 days at Rikers Island which is no picnic.

Baratunde Thurston I’ll tell you what else was interesting though. Most of our commentary about status updates and location tools and just all the data about us that’s available, usually we are afraid of it. We’re like, this is a privacy violation, this could have negative consequences. In this case it was the opposite. It was because he was using these tools that showed where he was and what he was up to that he was exonerated, so in fact maybe we should be publishing more of our – just a constant live stream just in case someone accuses us of a crime and we end up in Rikers.

Leo Laporte Did you see where Britney Spears tweeted that she follows Satan?

John C. Dvorak She follows Satan?

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak Somebody scored her account?

Jeff Jarvis Onstage.

Leo Laporte Yup, yup. Her account got hacked. It’s not the first time Britney’s account has been hacked. In fact it’s at least the second time to my knowledge.

John C. Dvorak Yes, it’s because her pas – name is Britney and her password is Britney.

Leo Laporte My name is Britney, well, she spells it weird. That might make it hard to hack.

Jeff Jarvis I bet her password is ‘password’.

John C. Dvorak There’s someone in the chat room says Britney Spears is Satan.

Leo Laporte Guess how many Twitter followers Britney Spears has? Just take a walk.

Baratunde Thurston 3.7 million, perhaps.

Leo Laporte That’s a very good guess, Baratunde.

Baratunde Thurston Yeah.

John C. Dvorak She was recommended though, wasn’t she?

Leo Laporte Oh yeah, she was – oh you don’t get a bug…

John C. Dvorak These are not – just things that came out. She didn’t just build to that. She had hardly any when she started. And then the corruption that takes place in the Twitter, world of Twitter, they gave her a boost and now she’s got all kinds of people. She should be paying them for that many.

Leo Laporte Well, absolutely.

Jeff Jarvis Business model.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Twitter finally has a business model.

Leo Laporte Yeah, I think that they knew this because other people on the suggested user list included Whole Foods, I know everybody wants to follow Whole Foods.

John C. Dvorak Oh yeah, I’m always interested in what cans of soup they’re buying tomorrow.

Jeff Jarvis Well Leo clearly is.

Leo Laporte And Dell outlet. Oh I’m following them, oh yeah. Britney also lost her MySpace account roughly the same time, which lends credence to the idea that maybe her password was ‘password’.

Baratunde Thurston Well this keeps happening. We keep having these stories of Twitter hacks, there’s these direct message hacks, people will send you things ‘oh, check out this picture!’ or ‘I saw you last night, it was very embarrassing!’ And they spread for a few hours and then people issue these apologies; ‘I’m sorry, my account was hacked.’ So I guess it’s probably just a sign of Twitter’s popularity that they’re now the target of scamsters. So even though it’s annoying, it’s a good sign for them.

Leo Laporte I’m getting direct messages now, and these are people I follow, right? Because you can’t get a direct message from somebody you don’t follow. I’m getting direct messages all the time. Here’s one from TVFraisier, he say “LOL, this is hilarious” and then sends...

Baratunde Thurston Probably not hilarious.

Leo Laporte Yeah, not hilarious. And then another one: “Hey! Can’t believe I found out my IQ score with this!”

John C. Dvorak Are you getting direct messages that are spam?

Leo Laporte This isn’t spam; if you click on these links various things happen, in some cases spyware is – they attempt to inject spyware onto your system. Let me click on it. Probably you’re going to – by now...

John C. Dvorak Now the show is going to end as we speak.

Jeff Jarvis Boom.

Baratunde Thurston Why would you click?

Leo Laporte Here it is. ‘Welcome to the IQ quiz.’ So it very well possible...

John C. Dvorak He’s using a Mac, he doesn’t have to worry.

Leo Laporte That could be spam, or it could be that this is a site that has...oh look at this. ‘Amazing fact subscription, sent to your cell. Only 9.99 a month!’

Jeff Jarvis Oh. Calling Michael Arrington.

Leo Laporte So what you do is I follow that link. I just press the button ‘start quiz’, and all of a sudden I’m going to get a $10 a month bill on my –

John C. Dvorak Yeah, forever and you’ll never get rid of it.

Leo Laporte Forever. The others might also – I’ve had one that sends you to a page that looks like a Twitter log in page. And I go – and of course, your immediate reaction is ‘oh, Twitter screwed up again.’ And you start typing your name and password, until you notice it ain’t Twitter.

John C. Dvorak Oh that’s a good one. I like it.

Leo Laporte Yeah. And that’s, I’m sure, how these people got hacked.

Jeff Jarvis Phished.

Leo Laporte Phished! They’ve been phished.

John C. Dvorak That reminds me, that Britney Spears’s password being password, so I was borrowing somebody’s computer and they had a – people like to put a sticky not on the monitor and they write their password on it?

Leo Laporte Yeah.

John C. Dvorak So they’ve got a sticker that says “password = password.”

Leo Laporte No!

John C. Dvorak Yeah. It was like, you can’t even remember that?

Baratunde Thurston So they deserve everything horrible that happens to them.

Leo Laporte I gotta tell you – well I can’t tell you, but my staff said can we password our computers, because I said I don’t want them passworded, because I want to be able to get into them. And I said all right, you can password them. And then I found out what they’re using. It is the most rudimentary, stupid – it’s like better to not password it than to use that password. But I can’t tell you what it is, because then you’ll be able to get in. It has to do with...see I don’t even want to say that.

John C. Dvorak Like ‘cottage’ and ‘Leo’? ‘Leoville’? ‘Password’?

Leo Laporte No, it’s not even a word! It has to do with...all right, I’ll tell you, what the hell. It’s asdf;lkj. Guess what that is?

John C. Dvorak It’s the’s qwerty!

Leo Laporte It’s the first four letters on the left hand, first four letters on the right hand!

John C. Dvorak Yes. That’s not unusual.

Leo Laporte That’s good. Now they have to change it. Ha ha! Google – now did Google buy Gizmo? Or was that just a bad rumour from TechCrunch? Sometimes...

John C. Dvorak No, no. They bought ‘em.

Baratunde Thurston They bought it. 30 million, I think.

Leo Laporte They actually did? That’s not a bad price, given that Skype is kind of rocky. I guess the Skype thing is over now, they’ve settled, right?

John C. Dvorak No, you know it wasn’t about just out and out competing with Skype, this was for Google voice, this was explained to me.

Jeff Jarvis So what does it give them, John?

John C. Dvorak Gizmo has an area code to itself and a whole bunch of links into the [ph] POT system (59:00) that will actually save Google money. Because they’re doing it by hand now, they’re doing all these separate deals. Apparently Gizmo’s done all the deals, they got their own area code and they’ve got a bunch of stuff like that, so the people that use Google voice, which is a terrific product by the way, now have – Google can save a little dough and actually have a better system and a better infrastructure to link into the regular [ph] POT system (59:23) system.

Leo Laporte That makes sense.

Baratunde Thurston But it also means that they can terminate calls to your computer if they wanted to, which they don’t quite have the ability to do right now.

Jeff Jarvis Ah.

Baratunde Thurston Now they have to terminate to the handset, yeah, so that makes it –

Leo Laporte I like Gizmo actually. You know, Gizmo’s a really –

John C. Dvorak Well you know what I never liked about Gizmo is that it installed a crapload of spyware on your machine...

Leo Laporte Ah, that’s Michael Rogers at it again. Michael always does that. What is his name, Michael Robertson?

John C. Dvorak Robertson.

Jeff Jarvis Robertson.

Leo Laporte Robertson. He loves to do that. Robertson.

John C. Dvorak So you load it up and the thing was a disaster and it took – and every time you booted your machine it would just – this Gizmo thing would be loading all these dlls and everything else, and it was a pain in the butt. So I just took it off and never used it again, but I had to say Google Voice doesn’t do any of that stuff. Essentially it’s all a web based thing.

Leo Laporte I love Google Voice. So you are a Google Voice user, John?

John C. Dvorak Oh, yeah it’s fantastic. Years ago the family decided that we were going to go to a long distance plan that bypasses [ph] AT&Tians (01:00:17) which is hard to do in California. So you have to have a calling card. So we, as a policy within the family, dial in this huge number to do – make long distance calls to wherever we call. And it’s actually a lot cheaper than an AT&T service, but meanwhile with Google Voice it bypasses that too and it’s just all free phone calls, it’s dynamite.

Leo Laporte You can’t get Google Voice on the iPhone of course, Apple wouldn’t let that happen, but the Android operating system supports it and that’s on my Droid phone from Motorola and…

John C. Dvorak Yeah but you can still have Google Voice call the iPhone.

Leo Laporte You can still – but get this application. So you tell Google Voice on the iPhone, you say I want to make all international calls through Google Voice. I don’t know how Verizon allowed this. I want to make all international calls through Google Voice.

John C. Dvorak You mean this is on the G phone.

Baratunde Thurston On the G – on the Droid.

Leo Laporte On the Droid.

John C. Dvorak On the Droid, yeah.

Leo Laporte I am stunned that Verizon allowed this. They probably haven’t figured it out yet. So you could say make all calls through Google Voice. Of course I guess it still costs minutes, right, so they don’t care. But it does save on the long distance calling.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah. I think they realized this is just where the world is going. Metered voice is dead.

Baratunde Thurston And they had to differentiate themselves from the closed system of Apple.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Well they have.

Baratunde Thurston I think this was a very reluctant embrace on their part. I recently reluctantly switched to the iPhone because I was using the G1 and the myTouch and they just couldn’t handle my usage. They crashed, they were slow, there was no headphone jack.

Leo Laporte Time to switch back, time to switch back.

Baratunde Thurston I couldn’t sync with iTunes. So I went over and I missed that Google Voice app. I will tell you though one of my friends he tried to sign up for Google Voice, and Google is run by engineers and they are not necessarily good at people and instructions, and so he signed up and basically said work with my existing number instead of getting a Google Voice number, and there is no way to undo that decision.

Leo Laporte Right, it’s permanent.

Baratunde Thurston You can’t go back! And he searched the help, the official help and it sent him to a forum on Google of everybody complaining about how there’s no way to do this.

John C. Dvorak To do what? I misunderstood this.

Baratunde Thurston He associated his existing cell phone number with Google Voice rather than getting a new number from Google itself, rather than a provisioning number from Google…

Leo Laporte This is something they just started doing a few weeks ago. They support number portability.

Baratunde Thurston But that’s a one-time offer. You can - the only…

John C. Dvorak If I am not mistaken for a fee of $10, you can undo that.

Baratunde Thurston No, no, you can’t undo it, you can only change an existing new number.

John C. Dvorak Oh, you can’t? Oh, so you’re still screwed with this deal.

Baratunde Thurston So you’ve got three [indiscernible] (1:02:41) get a Google number or get a Google number, then change it. But you can’t add a Google number after you’ve already decided to use your current one. It’s frustrating.

Leo Laporte We pay $10, John, because we joined Google Voice before they started doing this.

John C. Dvorak You paid $10?

Leo Laporte No, but if I wanted it to be my home phone number – but then I didn’t know there was no way out. So…

John C. Dvorak No, you want to try to get a better, yeah.

Leo Laporte I am just keeping the number. I have 2525heyleo.

John C. Dvorak 2525heyleo?

Leo Laporte Yeah, what do you think?

John C. Dvorak It’s terrible.

Jeff Jarvis Let’s – I’ll call it now.

John C. Dvorak ‘Hey Leo’! I mean it sounds like something from the 50s.

Leo Laporte It’s hard to get a number that spells something. Do you have one that spells something?

John C. Dvorak No.

Baratunde Thurston No me neither. I just – it’s a number. It’s not supposed to – it’s just numbers.

John C. Dvorak I always just look at the numbers, I see which ones might be memorable.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s memorable.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, ‘Hey Leo.’ Sounds like a catchphrase. In a cartoon.

Baratunde Thurston People don’t even use those kind of keypads anymore.

Jeff Jarvis I got to figure out the h; what is it, the 6?

Leo Laporte There’s sites you can do that but when you pick a number they’ll tell you. So they give you some choices when you sign up for Google Voice so I’m just kinda keep looking for choices till I found something that could spell something. That was the closest thing.

John C. Dvorak Hey Leo.

Leo Laporte Now I’ve given it out by the way. I don’t know what I am going to do with it now.

Baratunde Thurston That was a mistake.

Jeff Jarvis That and the password, you’re just transparent man tonight.

Leo Laporte Hey Leo. Let’s take a break. We’re going to come back. A big break for Apple and bad news for Apple Hackintosh users, but first a word from Audible is the place where we get our audio books. When I say we, I mean me. Do any of you guys listen to audio books?

Baratunde Thurston Yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte Oh, good.

Baratunde Thurston Oh, yeah. I am listening to ‘Under the Dome’ by Stephen King.

Leo Laporte Oh, I saw that on your twitter.

Baratunde Thurston Yes, I love it. In fact, as soon as this is over, I am putting it back in and I’m just going to – I make excuses to listen to the book. Once I get into it, I am like I am going to walk an hour home instead of taking a 10 minute subway ride just to add more book time to my life.

Leo Laporte Well, you need to because this thing is, what is it, like 40 hours.

Baratunde Thurston 40 hours. It’s like it’s a job.

Leo Laporte It’s a full-time job…

Baratunde Thurston It’s just like World of – or Modern Warfare.

Leo Laporte Yeah, Modern Warfare 2 or Stephen King’s ‘Under the Dome’. I give you your choice. Is it good? I am dying to read it.

Baratunde Thurston It is actually great. So far I really liked it.

Leo Laporte The idea is what, there’s a Midwest town that suddenly is like under a dome, like the Simpsons?

Baratunde Thurston Oh no, no; Stephen King deals with one state and that’s the state of Maine, okay. He deals with – and so it’s a small town in rural Maine and an invisible force field has trapped the town. And it’s exactly mirrored and bordered the whole town.

John C. Dvorak Yeah; the Simpsons.

Leo Laporte It’s the Simpsons!

Baratunde Thurston It is the Simpsons, But you can’t dig under it in this case.

Leo Laporte We actually talked about this on the Windows Weekly Show and Paul Thurrott remembered that Homer said ‘we’re trapped, like rats!’ and the guy said ‘no, rats could tunnel out. We’re trapped like carrots!’ There’s no way out. Under the Dome: A Novel by Stephen King, 34.5 hours of goodness and it’s yours free. In fact I am feeling generous today. So I want you go to and sign up for the platinum account which gives you two books a month and if you do that you can get Under the Dome: A Novel and What Would Google Do by our great Jeff Jarvis. You get two books.

Jeff Jarvis Yay, thanks for the second plug.

Leo Laporte Two plugs in one show. Two books for free. You can cancel anytime, the books are yours to keep but I don’t think you are going to want to cancel because I am with you Baratunde. I love my Audible books so much that I spend extra time in the car, extra time at the gym. It’s really good for your health.

Baratunde Thurston No it isn’t! I find myself talking lunch alone, I am just – ‘I need to listen to my book, I don’t want to talk to you people-people, let’s just hang out with Stephen King for a while.’

Leo Laporte So pathetic. But I am with you; I do the same thing., get your two books free. We love Audible, we know you will too, why don’t you give them a try. We thank them so much for their support of This WEEK in TECH network, the whole network. They are all over it. In fact, this was – Jason is always saying it, why not just tweet ‘thank you Audible.’ It’s @audible_com. ‘Thank you Ford’, it’s @fordsync, I think, ‘and thank you Citrix for sponsoring TWiT and Twitter that and it makes them even happier’. They really do like that. Let’s see, we got to get going here. We only have a few more minutes to do the show before. Poor Jeff, thank your wife, will you for me Jeff for letting her…

Jeff Jarvis I already got the spousal stare.

Leo Laporte She came in and looked at you? When is it going to be done? It’s like Michelangelo and Pope. ‘When, when will you be done, Jeff?’ ‘When I am finished.’ One more story and we then will run and that’s the Psystar decision has come down, went down on Friday. Apple suing a company in Florida called Psystar that was selling Macintosh clones. Psystar said ‘no, you know look we are not saying don’t buy the operating system. We are just making the hardware. You buy the operating system. You put it on the hardware. What could be wrong with that?’

Apple said to the judge ‘well it’s violating our EULA’ that says you may not run OS 10, when you buy it, you may not run OS 10 on non-Apple hardware. In this case, the judge agreed and said you are absolutely right. We uphold the EULA, we uphold Apple’s right to say you may not run OS 10 on other hardware and that pretty much puts Psystar and just Psystar, but the clone makers completely out of business. It’s over for the Hackintosh clan.

Baratunde Thurston You know I wonder how long Apple will be able to get away with all this brand love they get. People still have this idea of Apple as an underdog, that they’re somehow intrinsically good…

Leo Laporte Not anymore.

Baratunde Thurston …that they have this human qualities of virtue. They are a business trying to make money and they have some horrible policies, their app-store approval process is ridiculous. Their stance on this particular clone thing, I understand it. But it also – it’s anti freedom and it’s irritating and it’s not consistent with their image which they make billions of dollars off of.

John C. Dvorak They have been this way since 1977.

Leo Laporte Apple, but they were little then and so…

John C. Dvorak They actually were little.

Leo Laporte Let me…the company is Florida but the court case came out of California because that’s where Apple does business.

John C. Dvorak Remember the Pineapple? They sued them.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak Franklin Computer; they sued them.

Leo Laporte The first thing Steve Jobs did when he came back to Apple was kill the clones, because Apple had quite a few clones, by license.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah legitimately.

Leo Laporte Right.

John C. Dvorak Yeah.

Leo Laporte Psystar said that its conduct was protected by something called the First Sale Doctrine which provides that the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord, that tells you how old this is, phonorecord lawfully made under this title or any person authorized by such owner is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord. In other words, that’s what allows you to sell your phonorecords at a used phonorecord store.

Jeff Jarvis But here is a question for you. When Jobs came back and did get rid of the clone strategy, was that right thing to do?

Leo Laporte Well that’s a good question. I think if you look at Apple’s most recent quarterly results, you’d have to say yeah…

John C. Dvorak Yes, indeed.

Leo Laporte Yeah. But John you’ve said this on the show before. Look at the size of Bill Gates’ wallet versus Steve Jobs’ wallet. I mean Bill Gates made all his money not selling hardware but selling the operating system.

John C. Dvorak Yeah I mean the argument, you can take the argument from either perspective and I think both – and they’re both valid, because we don’t know for sure but I think they would be extremely successful if they sold OS 10 to just – like the way Microsoft does or licensed it. And I don’t think it would hurt their business because their business is selling a machine that is – that has other things going on. It’s gorgeous, it works well, like those laptops for example. A lot of PC users are buying those things because they have ones with the solid aluminum, I mean, it’s a terrific product. So even if they were licensing, I think it would just be icing on the cake, which is probably making even more money which maybe we don’t need.

Baratunde Thursday I think what’s interesting to me about Apple is that they don’t care about the benefit of being a platform that people can build on top of. iTunes has been still a relatively closed, stupid, simple media library and player for a long time. There’s no social features. They’re not doing any of the cool web stuff that everybody on this show probably tends to like. And the trend of openness and APIs, it just doesn’t apply. And they can get away with it. That’s what’s frustrating to me is that they don’t have to because clearly they’re making more than enough money. But they could be satisfying many more people if they were a little more lax with some of these policies.

Leo Laporte Oh I’m so glad you said that Baratunde so how John can call you a bleeding heart liberal leftie, pinkus, pinkle, socialist...

Baratunde Thursday Oh it’s all about innovation, it’s not about politics. It’s about creating an opportunity, right? And they missed the opportunity; they’re anti-American, that’s what Apple is.

John C. Dvorak You leftie. Left wing nut!

Leo Laporte What about business! Jeff what were you going to say?

Jeff Jarvis Just going to say that Apple is the grand exception to all rules.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Baratunde Thurston They really are.

Jeff Jarvis And not to get a third plug in, but in my book, I went through all these rules about how Google operates and then came to the end and said ‘Apple violets every damn one of them.’ And it’s still so damn good.

Leo Laporte And it does very well.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, I love my iPhone. I hug my iPhone. I love my Mac, I’m talking to you on my Mac, I’m fan boy.

Baratunde Thurston Oppression feels really good and it’s very convenient.

John C. Dvorak Yep. There you go, he’s right. He’s got it in nailed. He nailed it. I made the argument in the past, I’ll make it again.

Leo Laporte Oh god. Oh yeah. Oh man. Oh baby!

Jeff Jarvis Steve jobs yoke around me, yes I know.

John C. Dvorak Which is – Steve jobs is a meditator, it’s the only reason he’s so successful.

Leo Laporte What? Is that the secret?

John C. Dvorak Yeah, he learned something when he went to India. Some dirty trick, I don’t know how he does it, but he actually wills success to the Apple company, through some meditative practice and…

[Humming meditative sounds]

Jeff Jarvis [indiscermible] (1:13:21) hypnotising all of us.

Leo Laporte You’ve been doing No Agenda; you’ve been talking to Adam Curry far too long John.

John C. Dvorak Oh no, this is a theory – I had this theory when I was at InfoWorld I proposed this theory.

Leo Laporte It might be true. It might be true.

Baratunde Thurston Yeah, someone in the chat room...

[indiscernible] (73:33)

Jeff Jarvis ...Apple actually sucks; we’ve been hypnotized just to believe it’s great.

Leo Laporte Go ahead Baratunde.

Baratunde Thursday Randy2Cool, in the chat room says Steve Jobs is going to sue all of us tomorrow, by the way.

Leo Laporte Yeah, he might. It’s not over for Psystar. That’s just the first part of this trial. There will be a damages hearing in a couple of weeks and continued trial on breach of contract, induced breach of contract, trademark infringement, trademark dilution, trade dress infringement, state unfair competition under California Business Professions Code 17200 and common law unfair competition. So there. I wouldn’t want to be Psystar right now.

Remember John we had the theory that there was some rich guy, maybe he’s Michael Dell funding Psystar to figure out if the courts would allow this.

John C. Dvorak Yeah, and that was a good theory, I like it. Because we never saw a Psystar, did we?

Leo Laporte No.

John C. Dvorak It just seemed that it was just built to be sued.

Leo Laporte Made to be sued. Oh that’s my story. Alright folks we’re going to wrap it up because Jeff’s wife is giving him this – I can see, he’s looking over his shoulder now.

Jeff Jarvis No, I actually – Fred Wilson just tweeted that he wants to get the sleeper hoody he saw on a flight last night. And I love it – it comes with an inflatable neck pillow in the hoody.

John C. Dvorak Oh wow.

Leo Laporte New from Snuggie!

John C. Dvorak Yeah, we need those. We need those.

Leo Laporte Alright we’re going to – I think for your holiday gifts all the TWiT panellists will receive free neck pillow inserted Snuggies.

John C. Dvorak With the TWiT logo on it.

Leo Laporte With the TWiT logo.

Baratunde Thurston No! You’re not sending me one of those!

Jeff Jarvis I don’t want a slanket, I want a hoody.

Leo Laporte It’s a slanket with a pillow.

Baratunde Thurston Never. Oh God, we’re talking about Sunggies.

John C. Dvorak Can’t wear it on a airplane; you look like a complete idiot.

Jeff Jarvis You look like a terrorist is what you look like, there’s a bomber on your neck.

Leo Laporte Has any of you ever seen anybody in a slanket or a snuggy, on an airplane?

Jeff Jarvis No.

Leo Laporte No.

John C. Dvorak No. Not yet.

Baratunde Thurston I refuse to answer any questions involving either of those two items.

Leo Laporte That’s when the end times will be here. It’s already – people are wearing track suits.

John C. Dvorak You’d think it’d be something interesting about it for surreptitious sex on the plane.

Leo Laporte Oh. Oh you need a double slanket?

John C. Dvorak No, no. Maybe an extra large.

Baratunde Thurston This is happening. This is actually happening.

Leo Laporte Would you have four sleeves on one, and two neck pillows?

Jeff Jarvis Well I’m going to need three sleeves if you think about it.

Leo Laporte Another TWiT is has definitely hit the fan. Baratunde Thurston is at Catch him at the Onion and of course where he is the politics editor and of course on that great show on Discovery Science. What is it, Popular...?

Baratunde Thursday Popular Science’s Future Of... And I’m speaking on web 2.0 in New York this Wednesday, around one, 1:30, they’re live streaming it, I’m talking about fun things. So check it out.

Leo Laporte Go watch him. That sounds great web 2.0 on Thursday. Thank you, Baratunde, always great to have you on.

Mr. Jeff Jarvis thank you for sticking around after an extremely long TWiG.

Jeff Jarvis Thank you for having me.

Leo Laporte I really appreciate you giving us…

And I’m speaking at web 2.0 Tuesday at about 4:20 and I think I’m going to try to, as a comedian would do, try out material for what might be the next book called Beta.

Leo Laporte Oh I can’t wait. Wow.

Baratunde Thurston [ph] Seriously? I’m going to be featured again on Wednesday, listen to my talks, it’ll be great. (76:45)

Leo Laporte And John C. Dvorak is at Anything else you would like to say for yourself sir?

John C. Dvorak; why not?

Leo Laporte Another TWiT is in the can.

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