TWiT 260/Transcript

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Episode 260


This transcript is provided by our friends at Pods in Print

Introduction Netcasts you love. From people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte Audio bandwidth for This Week in Tech is provided by Winamp. Subscribe to TWiT and all your favorite podcasts with the ultimate media player, download it for free at Video bandwidth for TWiT is provided by Cachefly at

Tom Merritt This is TWiT: This Week in Tech, episode 260, recorded Sunday, August 8, 2010: Sex, Lies, And Contractors.

This episode of TWiT is brought to you by Ford; makers of the EcoBoost engine with twin-turbos and direct injection. Ford EcoBoost is a powerful and fuel-efficient V6 that’s standard on the Ford Taurus SHO. Drive one this week at a Ford dealer near you.

And by GoToMyPC. For those of us who work around the clock, access your files and applications around the clock too with GoToMyPC. For your free 30-day trial visit

And by, the fast and easy way to publish a high quality website or blog. For a free trial and 10% off your new account, go to

Welcome to This Week in Tech, episode 260. I am Tom Merritt filling in for the vacationing Leo Laporte. He is actually driving his daughter his daughter up to college.

Molly Wood Oh, really?

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood That is so sweet.

Tom Merritt But we have assembled a fine, fine group of guests, some of my favorite people in the world here, to help us fill in the gaps. Of course, first of all, Molly Wood, Executive Editor of

Molly Wood I am so happy to be here.

Tom Merritt We’re talking tech again together.

Molly Wood Jay, I know, in the same room and everything!

Tom Merritt Exactly. Thanks for coming all the way up here. It’s great.

Molly Wood Of course, yeah.

Tom Merritt Of course, Molly Wood also host of Buzz Out Loud, a fantastic tech podcast on CNET, everyday at 10:30 A.M. Pacific.

Molly Wood Yeah, it’s like the second best way to get daily tech news.

Tom Merritt Every once in a while, I accidentally type in my Twitter feed still - until the chat room yells at me. But yeah, so you can find her at Goes to all your stuff?

Molly Wood Goes to all the video.

Tom Merritt All the video stuff.

Molly Wood Yeah, the Buzz Report, the tech review, that kind of stuff.

Tom Merritt And if you just want the ranty stuff --

Molly Wood In text form.

Tom Merritt In text form.

Molly Wood Actual written rants. Yeah.

Tom Merritt Written rants?

Molly Wood Yep, that’s my deal.

Tom Merritt Writ-ants!

Molly Wood Writ-ants!

Tom Merritt Never mind. Patrick Beja also hosting --

Molly Wood We missed each other.

Tom Merritt Also joining us a host of Le Rendez-Vous Tech. You can find him at Welcome, Patrick.

Patrick Beja Hey, guys. Thanks so much for having me.

Tom Merritt I am a big fan of many of your podcasts, including The Phileas Club which is – I think an ingenius idea finding people in various areas of the world, bringing them together to discuss the news of the day for the world as well as news in their area, getting a lot of different perspectives. You just recorded one, right?

Patrick Beja Yeah, we recorded an epic two and half hour show where Shawn Coons, a good friend of mine wanted to discuss religion. So that’s sort of dynamite podcasting there.

Tom Merritt Oh, come on, take on a controversial topic next time. I mean really. Religion.

Patrick Beja No, we had a lot of fun. We had people from all over and it was great.

Tom Merritt And finally, someone and I have been an admirer of for quite a long time, Nilay Patel, Managing Editor of, and I actually have learned how to pronounce your name correctly now. So --

Nilay Patel Well, you’ve been an admirer of me for a long time. You have poor taste in dudes. Like I said.

Tom Merritt It is my job and has been for like, five years to look at all of the tech news of the day and I have to say, more frequently than other names, a Nilay Patel byline shows up in my final line-ups both when I was at Buzz Out Loud and on Tech News Today.

Nilay Patel Well, you know I do try to be as confident and pretentious as possible.

Tom Merritt So whoever you’re paying to write your posts?

Molly Wood Hey, I do that too.

Tom Merritt You should give them a raise.

Nilay Patel That robot army is really, really that – and those are the best thousand monkeys I’ve ever bought!

Tom Merritt You should throw that intern a second Diet Coke! You can find, of course, Nilay at but do you have another URL to promote as well?

Nilay Patel I wish I did, but I don’t, everything, my Engadget pretty much locks us in. I’m not actually allowed to leave the house anymore. Just pretty much sit here typing it constantly.

Tom Merritt Right, right. So if you hear noise in the background during the show today, you’ll understand, why.

Nilay Patel Exactly.

Tom Merritt The right hand has to keep going.

Nilay Patel Yeah, I’m blogging.

Tom Merritt You’re blogging. I’m blogging this.

Nilay Patel I really – I just wanted to clear up what my right hand was doing.

Tom Merritt That’s a good idea. We don’t want this to go off of the rails. So, as I am filling in for Leo Laporte we will be talking about Twitter, we’ll be revealing someone’s World of Warcraft name, we’ll be going on about Facebook. Is there anything else I’m missing?

Molly Wood Three hour show.

Tom Merritt It will be a three hour show? Yeah?

Molly Wood Yeah.

Tom Merritt Okay. I’m trying to jump in as best as I can. There is a big story breaking today, though. Techcrunch saying that the Verizon iPhone rumors are true. That in fact, they have sources, they go into a long description of supply chain, evidentiary trails that they followed, that say CDMA chips are being ordered by Apple in numbers that imply that they’ll have a Verizon iPhone by January.

Molly Wood Lather, rinse and repeat!

Nilay Patel Yeah, I’ve never heard this before.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Nilay Patel Allcomm is producing CDMA chips for Apple. I mean in the past, in three years or so this rumor has never occurred.

Patrick Beja Yes, but now they are giving a timeframe! It’s January. They never did that before the… oh, wait, OK, right…

Nilay Patel I’ve never heard a timeframe before either.

Molly Wood Oh, wait, no, they did… I think the timeframe always starts with J, it’s either June or July, of whatever year you’re in!

Patrick Beja So, January.

Tom Merritt Verizon’s --

Patrick Beja So the new part is actually “anuary”.

Molly Wood Yeah

Tom Merritt Verizon CEO has also been signed on to do a keynote at CES, not that surprising but everyone’s trying to throw that into this rumor mix as well.

Patrick Beja Well no, actually that is a little surprising, so that’s a first, right, because -

Tom Merritt Okay, why is that surprising?

Patrick Beja Usually Steve Ballmer does the pre-show keynote and then like, Ford will do the later keynote as part of the official show.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Nilay Patel Or you know, some other company that – we actually don’t pay that much attention to. Verizon is new and I think what Verizon is going to do, my hunch is that they are going to do Android tablets in conjunction with Google. That’s sort of the timeframe we’ve been hearing for a long time. Google – it’s funny the only Android tablet you can like really go out and buy in the States right now is this like, off brand, Augen tablet, Kmart for $150. It’s running like infringing Google apps and so that’s sort of amazing, sort of the Android tablet you can buy not discounting the ARCHOS tablets but they are sort of harder to find in the States. And so I think the big push is going to be Google and Verizon coming on stage show it at CES and be like, check out our new tablet strategy! And that makes a lot of sense to me.

Molly Wood I hate it.

Nilay Patel Verizon show up without Apple, I mean like check out the new iPhone makes no sense.

Molly Wood I hate to give credence to this rumor again but I mean --

Tom Merritt You have been predicting this for a while.

Molly Wood Yeah, we all know it’s coming. I mean I think there is no question that Apple is eventually going to open up to other carriers. What I find weird and surprising about this is my assumption has always been they won’t make a Verizon iPhone until it’s LTE and that they weren’t – that they weren’t going to make a CDMA iPhone and that’s the part of this that I still find a little bit implausible, that they would be – at this point when Verizon has already started testing – very limited testing but some testing of LTE networks right in some areas, that they would be ordering large quantities of this basically outdated technology.

Tom Merritt The press release that says that Ivan Seidenberg will be delivering the keynote says he will highlight the company’s vision for its LTE 4G wireless technology.

Molly Wood And then with that – it wouldn’t surprise me if they said “that’s going to include iPhone”. But then that doesn’t really work with this rumor. Yeah, it’s just that that doesn’t work with the…

Nilay Patel Right. I’m also doing – because like they do have dual-mode chips, right? But that’s like, those are bigger, they’re more complicated, they’re undoubtedly going to involve more battery drain, all of it seems like compromises to me and I don’t think Apple is the sort of company that wants to get away from AT&T so badly that they’re going to make huge compromises on battery life and maybe even size, to get dual-mode CDMA LTE. I think they are more than happy to wait – I mean what do they have to lose, they’re selling their iPhone as fast as they can make them, right -

Molly Wood Right.

Nilay Patel They keep saying, “we can’t make them quickly enough”.

Molly Wood I totally agree.

Nilay Patel And as soon as the white one comes on, whenever that is, I think they are going to sell even more. So I don’t think they’re going to -

Molly Wood Is that thing seriously not out yet? They still can’t get the white one?

Nilay Patel Yeah, still can’t make it. Walt Mossberg is the only person in America.

Molly Wood Well of course he is.

Tom Merritt Well, the best rumor I have seen as to why is they can’t figure it out how to stop light from coming out of the back. I mean, I’m just like “why don’t you turn that into a feature”. It’s the new glowing back!

Molly Wood Kind of like a flashlight.

Tom Merritt It’s revolutionary.

Molly Wood It’s like a warm, cozy nightlight. It’s a nightlight!

Patrick Beja Just give it a name, like iLite.

Tom Merritt The nightl-iPhone.

Molly Wood The iNightlight.

Nilay Patel It’s amazing. No other phone can both make phone calls and keep you safe at night.

Tom Merritt Okay, we think you’re going to love it.

Patrick Beja Or, make you a target for snipers.

Molly Wood It’s just gorgeous.

Tom Merritt Well, now I’m glad you pointed this out Nilay, because I didn’t realize he was doing the key keynotes. So he’s replacing Ballmer. I just thought he was doing one of the - because they have those later keynotes. Is that --

Molly Wood I don’t think he’s replacing, no, he’s just one of the keynotes.

Nilay Patel Yeah, so Ballmer does the pre-show keynote.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Nilay Patel The day before CES officially starts.

Tom Merritt He is still doing that one.

Nilay Patel Which is always a little stupid --

Tom Merritt Right.

Nilay Patel Because you don’t go to that, it’s like CES only started for the press.

Tom Merritt Right.

Molly Wood They always have, they always have a passel of keynoters, right? They do four; they’ve usually got like Michael Dell or somebody like that so it’s not totally surprising

Tom Merritt They use to have Palm.

Patrick Beja No, Palm does a show, Palm does an event, Dell doesn’t do anything anymore, they do it offsite where they like, they pull out a product they’re going to announce the next six months, not tell you anything it, and put it away. And then Intel usually closes up the show, with a huge key -

Molly Wood So it’s not that unusual that would have somebody to basically replace the Dell, the Dell bracket and Verizon’s been a big deal.

Patrick Beja It isn’t -

Tom Merritt It is interesting to see Verizon come in to that mix and I think the tablet theory that you put out there is right, but this 4G LTE line in the press release adds a little fuel to the intrigue fire, however…

Nilay Patel Well we’ve gotten rumors that they’re launching test markets like in 2011, so it makes a lot of sense there. Say, we’re turning it on in Boise, Idaho or whatever tiny test markets they have.

Molly Wood And even if they don’t have the iPhone by then, they’re going to hint at it, because they want it, the thing we do know that Verizon wants the iPhone, and they have said publicly ‘We would love to have a Verizon iPhone’, it’s just that Apple’s been holding out and I think the thing they are holding out for is LTE.

Patrick Beja Well it would seem very strange that Apple would go for the limited LTE network already. It would seem a little bit too soon, I don’t know, I would, from the outside, but about that CDMA chip, don’t they already produce CDMA iPhone for other markets?

Nilay Patel No

Molly Wood No, GSM is the global standard. There were though, there were those weird little tests where they were showing, they were showing app - like data requests on a CDMA iPhone and that was a part of the – I think there’s possibility they’ve been testing it.

Tom Merritt They’ve most likely made a CDMA iPhone.

Molly Wood Right I’m sure they have.

Tom Merritt But not a factory production model.

Molly Wood Are they really going to reengineer it? I don’t know, the dual chip is a possibility I guess. We’ll see, you know what, we’ll have this rumor to kick around at least 20 times between now and CES day.

Tom Merritt There’s no way Apple’s going to allow Verizon to announce an iPhone at CES. I think that is 100% sure.

Nilay Patel Yeah, that is not happening.

Molly Wood Unless Steve Jobs is also there.

Tom Merritt Oh, even – that’s not going to happen.

Molly Wood Awesome! Somebody Twitter that! Verizon CEO…

Patrick Beja Let’s just make that into your rumor right now. Story like that, he’s going to be there and bam it will happen.

Nilay Patel There’s been this rumor [indiscernible] (12:34) for months is that the white iPhone is the CDMA iPhone, and so that’s - he’s been working on it for months, I’m just feeding it out there, wide out. We’ve seen it pop up here and there

Tom Merritt So wait Nilay, so what you’re saying is the white iPhone is the CDMA iPhone?

Nilay Patel Absolutely, there’s no doubt.

Molly Wood So you’re saying take that to the bank? Totally Twitter that right now?

Nilay Patel Verizon’s CEO, Ivan Seidenberg will introduce the white CDMA iPhone, guaranteed.

Molly Wood Done and – with Steve Jobs on stage with him

Nilay Patel Yeah absolutely.

Tom Merritt Why not?

Molly Wood Awesome.

Tom Merritt Icing on the cake. While we’re at it, Flash is coming to iPhone 4!

Molly Wood That’s actually – we’re not making that up, that’s actually happening.

Tom Merritt Yeah, you mean sort of. You got a jailbreak it, and then you can install something called Frash which is an homage to Strongbad.

Molly Wood Totally!

Tom Merritt Yes. But yeah, it’s the best workaround to adding Flash to your iPad and iPhone.

Molly Wood As long as you’re willing to jailbreak.

Tom Merritt As long as you’re willing to jailbreak.

Molly Wood Yeah

Nilay Patel So Comex was the guy who developed it says ‘it’s alpha quality,’ so you should – buyer beware, to run it. It will probably kill your battery really fast. And again to install it involves some steps, but it’s there, we always knew the jailbreak guys would be ones to do it. There was never, I never had any doubt that they would be the ones to figure it out. It’s just funny because it’s like, once that’s out there – like sort of the last – big nerd objections to the iPhone not having Flash has sort of gone, it’s like well, Adobe should have just put out a jailbreak version of Flash like, years ago.

Molly Wood Yeah. I think the nerds though who have decided, ‘I’m not, I’m just not doing that, philosophically they’re not going to be convinced by the fact. I mean I guess sir, that you could say like ‘there’s a moral high ground to be taken’, ‘I hacked it and I’m running Flash on it or whatever’. But it’s like I think most of those nerds including myself have now just defected to Android and are happily living there with the Froyo and the Flash

Nilay Patel I was using Flash on an Evo today; it was actually really like compressive, but it works.

Tom Merritt Yeah. I was going to suggest, I mean if you get an Evo, you already have Flash and the battery problems preinstalled

Molly Wood Exactly!

Tom Merritt You don’t need a jailbreak it!

Patrick Beja That’s my question actually. Is – now that we have all these fantastic Android phones with Flash, is it actually worth it, do you guys use it? Or is it like okay, I can do it if I want but I actually never do?

Molly Wood Well it sort of depends on what your use case is. Like, it’s nice to be able to stream one of these live shows, right? Like there was one day when I was driving and I was like, oh! I can totally start streaming TNT and just have it listen; have it playing on the phone on the seat. Like I’m not watching it but I can hear it. Or those frequent cases where that’s - the phone honestly is the device that I’m using when I’m sitting on the couch. Sort of just checking my email and surfing, and it’s nice if somebody has sent me a link to a video that I can watch, without having to kind of get up and go to a real computer.

Tom Merritt Restaurant websites on the go. If you have Flash it’s like, killer app for me. But you know, it’s like could I have workaround, because on the iPhone I have menu pages that works fine, it’s like, it’s just one of those things where its’ – now that it’s there I don’t worry about it anymore and when I go back to the iPhone and I don’t have it, it’s as irritating as it ever was, which was, actually not so irritating at all, but it’s nice to have. It’s one of those things, where it’s like, well now I have it, why have we made such a fuss about it, which it is.

Molly Wood I have to say, on the iPad I find the lack of Flash, supremely noticeable and annoying. I mean really to the point that I just like, usually use my netbook instead. I mean I have to kind of, come up with reasons now to use the iPad, if it’s not entertaining my child which is honestly is it’s primary purpose.

Tom Merritt What are the sites in particular that you’re trying to get to, that just fail?

Molly Wood Mainly I’m trying to watch video, and then often those restaurants websites and then often, and then there are just sites with like Flash plus JavaScript, right, that doesn’t really work very well, like I wanted to look up, I was going to see Salt, and I want to look on, you feel like, when would be the good opportunities, you know, nothing doing. And then add to that the fact that the Google Docs, you can’t edit like a word doc, it’s just like kind of alright this thing…

Tom Merritt runp is great.

Patrick Beja That’s not Flash though is it?

Molly Wood runp is awesome, that’s not a flash thing, that’s a – that’s like an additional barrier, but it’s kind of a Google problem. I’m not blaming the iPad for it, it’s just that it compounds.

Tom Merritt runp is the site that tells you when in the movie is a good time to go to the bathroom.

Molly Wood It’s awesome and it’s kind of spoilery, so they actually hide the text and you have to highlight it to see like, if you don’t want to get spoiled then you highlight the text to see like, this is a good time, but it tells you when it’s a good time during the movie to go pee.

Tom Merritt What time in, yeah.

Molly Wood It’s so smart!

Patrick Beja That’s amazing. But they have Flash?

Molly Wood They have some JavaScript thing or something, it doesn’t, for some reason it doesn’t work on my phone

Patrick Beja Something that fails.

Tom Merritt What’s funny to me is when I’m using the iPad and an embedded video does play. You’re just kind of throwing, way pal it works, that’s amazing technology.

Molly Wood It’s magical.

Patrick Beja Well Steve Jobs said it was like 75% of the video on the web was available on the iPhone. He said it! It must be true.

Molly Wood Well that was an unbelievably clever disassembly basically because what he said is, you know, 90% of the video on the web is encoded in something other than Flash which is totally true, it’s just that 90% of the same 90% is come - is being – is then being presented in a Flash player and so it is still wrapped in Flash even though it might be encoded as an MOV or something else and it was just so disingenuous, and it was like “well yeah, but it’s all on the web in Flash”.

Patrick Beja Right, I was trying to get on the…

Molly Wood We might be a little off topic now, whoops.

Tom Merritt Good, we’re doing our job!

Nilay Patel Over on Engadget, we just implemented with Viddler like HTML 5 video playback, and like people are freaking out about it because now they can use it on their phones and on the iPad and it’s like, okay, well there’s something to be said for like these popular devices that don’t have Flash and all people really want is the video. Because nobody ever complained that they couldn’t play our Flash ads, they only complained when they couldn’t watch a video.

Patrick Beja Yeah, right.

Nilay Patel As soon as we solved that, no-one complains anymore. Well, our readers don’t complain about Flash. They complain about Flash because they’re Engadget readers, but not because of Engadget. Is this complicated?

Molly Wood No, I got it, I follow.

Tom Merritt No, I got it. Whoa, this is, okay I’m sorry; I just got a little blown away by an advertisement on this New York Times page. It’s about to transition us into talking about Mr. Papermaster. Mark Papermaster. There is an advertisement that says Stewart Elliott’s in advertising emails. Sign up for Stewart Elliott’s exclusive column, see a sample and it includes, my email address, right? Except it’s not, my email address at least it’s not an email address I have used in this decade or the past one. It’s an email address I haven’t used since 1999.

Molly Wood Is it the one you originally used to register with New York Times?

Tom Merritt I guess so, probably back in the ‘90s. it’s – I’ll give it to you, it’s It’s the email id that gave me the username acedetect.

Molly Wood That’s adorable.

Tom Merritt It doesn’t work anymore.

Patrick Beja Or maybe it’s you from the past, who’s trying to tell you something.

Tom Merritt That’s really funny.

Nilay Patel That’s you from the past.

Tom Merritt I must sign up for this.

Nilay Patel Sign up for this newsletter.

Molly Wood Reaching out to you through the

Tom Merritt Sorry for that digression. But Mark Papermaster, who is the Apple executive in-charge of hardware for the iPhone, among other things, has left the company and all the good rumors say he has been asked to leave the company. And then of course the wilder rumors say he’s gotten fired over the Antennagate problem.

Molly Wood I mean, of course that was the...

Patrick Beja Is there any doubt that’s what it is somewhat? He joined the company a year ago from IBM, right?

Molly Wood Yeah.

Patrick Beja And afterwards, he’s like, ‘well, I am going away. I want to take vacations.’ It’s obviously what it is.

Molly Wood It’s got to be. Yeah, I mean he joins the company, he does that thing. That’s like his big claim to fame probably from the hardware design.

Nilay Patel Well, no he was a system-on-a-chip guy. He was a processor guy. So, I think he came over – I mean he came over as head engineer of mobile devices - but his – he was a processor guy at IBM. He was a – like a microprocessor architecture guy.

Molly Wood Yeah he – it says he oversees…

Nilay Patel And he’s coming to Apple…

Molly Wood Oh sorry, the new guys.

Nilay Patel Right. But his coming to Apple was very controversial as well, right, because IBM actually sued him and sued Apple…

Molly Wood Right.

Nilay Patel For – am I totally nuts here. They sued him and they sued Apple for violating his non-compete with IBM and eventually they settled and he got to come over. So I mean, his entire tenure at Apple has been controversial.

Molly Wood Right.

Nilay Patel His leaving now, it’s like – well, who knows? Bob Mansfield has been the iPhone engineering guy in their videos and their promo materials the entire time. Papermaster was never around, we never saw what he did, the way that Apple publicly shows off its other executives like Scott Forstall or Jonny Ive or Phil Schiller, Bob Mansfield has always been that guy. So did he leave over the antenna? Maybe…

Tom Merritt Or he’s just not very good on camera?

Molly Wood Right. Who knows?

Nilay Patel Yeah. Or was that like he failed at that part of the job so that’s why he’s leaving. Their like ‘Mark, we’ve put you in front of the camera a few times now. And turns out you’re just really unattractive and we’re going to have to let you go.’

Patrick Beja Also you’re name is kind of stupid. So maybe…

Molly Wood Well, according to John Gruber though the thing that makes you wonder if it’s antenna related is that according to John Gruber of Daring Fireball who is basically, let’s be honest, the unofficial mouthpiece of Apple these days, he was known around Apple as the antenna guy, like he was given at least internal credit for being “the guy responsible for the antenna”. He was also then conspicuously absent from all the iPhone 4 promotional material. He wasn’t at the press conference even though supposedly he was really the hardware guy.

Tom Merritt Right. The press conference you could say oh well, he’s taken the fall, their not going to let him go to the press conference. They are in the process of getting rid of him.

Molly Wood Right.

Tom Merritt The videos though – that was before any Antennagate had ever broken. They filmed those long before. So…

Molly Wood Yeah.

Patrick Beja Because they knew.

Tom Merritt What Gruber is trying to imply in that posting is, there may have been problems with him already. He may not have been fitting in before Antennagate.

Nilay Patel And they said that from get-go – actually during the lawsuit when they were doing discovery and Apple’s emails are being released about how they hired him and all this stuff. One of the emails was from Bob Mansfield and he said, Papermaster’s incredibly smart, he knows the field very well. But he’s a long shot in every other way for this job. And maybe that’s just turned out to be true. And maybe he was really smart about microprocessors and antenna design. But he didn’t fit the culture of Apple or he wasn’t good at leading team. We don’t know why he left.

Molly Wood Or he was both, right? He was a bad fit and he was controversial hire and he was sort of troublesome and then on top of that he was responsible for the antenna and that was just like one thing too far. Who knows.

Nilay Patel Right, I mean it’s…

Tom Merritt Bob Mansfield has taken over his responsibilities, though.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Nilay Patel I’ll put it to you this way. Jonny Ive now has led the design of many Apple products that have significant flaws that the company’s had to take PR hits for right. iPods that scratch really easily. The G4 Cube that cracked all over the place. The Magic Mouse which is the stupid – the Mighty Mouse, which is the dumbest mouse ever designed, right?

Patrick Beja That’s true but it was nothing as bad as this.

Molly Wood Yeah but he’s industrial design – those were design things. Like, he was like – you can’t deny that the Mighty Mouse looks lovely even though it doesn’t work for dookie.

Nilay Patel But the iPod – but the – Apple lost a class action lawsuit over the iPod nano scratching too easily and too much, right? I mean that’s a flaw, that’s a major design decision that turned out to be a problem. And they didn’t ask Jonny Ive to leave. I think that…

Molly Wood That’s why I think it was probably a combination of things. It was probably that he was…

Nilay Patel Yeah, I agree, absolutely agree.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Patrick Beja I think he could have gotten – they could have gotten rid of him over the Antennagate thing. I think it was a lot more important and impactful for the company than the scratching iPods and also Jonny Ive, the example which you’re taking – he is so – I would argue that he’s a lot more important than Mr. Papermaster to the company at this point. They couldn’t – we couldn’t imagine them getting rid of Jonny Ive. It would be almost like getting – he’s the second most important person after Jobs.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Nilay Patel No, I am saying but now …..

Patrick Beja Sure.

Nilay Patel When he designed the iPods that scratched and the G4 Cube that cracked – he wasn’t quite [inaudible] (25:04). You know what I mean?

Molly Wood Yeah, but he made them look really pretty. He didn’t like – he didn’t manufacture the materials. He made them look really pretty and I think that’s mainly his charter, to be honest. I mean industrial design encompasses more than that but ……..

Nilay Patel Well no, here – do you want to hear my Jonny Ive impression? ‘Well, you know, you’ve got to think about the material, right? And the material and the design are the same thing.’ See, it’s good.

Molly Wood Exactly. But he’s like – that’s not bad, actually, that’s pretty good. But he – Jonathan Ive is above the materials. He’s all about the aesthetics.

Nilay Patel His haircut. And it’s just, it works [indiscernible] (25:36).

Molly Wood I’ve got to say, he did not used to be that hot. That is somewhat of a recent development and good for you. And he has industrial designed himself into a whole new level.

Tom Merritt They do – maybe that’s all they needed to do is give Papermaster a makeover.

Nilay Patel That was a really sassy Molly moment. Industrially designed himself.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood That is magical, Jonny.

Tom Merritt Or maybe they just didn’t like meeting with him in person.

Molly Wood Maybe. They just didn’t like him.

Tom Merritt Maybe they should have used GoToMyPC.

Molly Wood To hang out with him? Oh you did not, really? Oooh. He has not lost it, people.

Patrick Beja And that ladies and gentlemen is how it’s done.

Tom Merritt Ah yes, for many of us jobs aren’t just from 9 to 5. You’ve got to work around the clock. Whenever an idea comes to you, whenever you have a little spare time, whenever you’re inspired or motivated to do something, you need to work on it which means we don’t have all of the files or applications we need right at our finger tips. If this sounds to you like the way you’re going to work, you should try out GoToMyPC sponsor of TWiT. GoToMyPC means you can get what you need done whenever the mood strikes you. You can access your office or home computer and all the files and applications on it from anywhere, no matter where you are. So try it out, why don’t you for 30 days free. I am not saying it will save your career but it can’t hurt. So check it out by going to and be able to access your files anywhere you go anytime. we thank them for their support. We thanks them for their support. We do all kinds of things for their support.

Molly Wood We thank them.

Tom Merritt We always thank them. I don’t think GoToMyPC or anything would have helped HP CEO, Mark Hurd.

Molly Wood Something is rotten at HP, like what is up with these people?

Tom Merritt So not only has he resigned over the sexual harassment investigation but now there seems to be a little after-bickering between HP and Hurd over exactly what happened. When the announcement was made on Friday it was ‘we didn’t find any sexual violations but he did violate policy and so he’s going to step down. And we are going to give him a severance package.’ But now on Twitter and elsewhere there’s been a little like, he filed fraudulent expense reports, no I didn’t. This is turning out much worse for HP.

Nilay Patel Well, so this is strange because this whole story is bonkers, like I love it for some reason.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood I do too. No, I could not agree more. It’s awesome.

Nilay Patel It’s just so ridiculous it’s like there’s this like fake sexual harassment claim and then every side just insists that they were just really good friends, right? Which is like – it at least had to be worth it, you know what I mean?

Molly Wood But also the – and that even if there was a relationship that he is the CEO of HP and he can’t afford to conduct his own affair, that he would have to falsify expense reports that were related to the cost of the affair? Like dude, you can’t pony up for your own hour long hotel room stays? Like, I don’t understand. This is so confusing.

Nilay Patel No but they were just friends. They weren’t doing anything. He didn’t need the – they could just go and get coffee.

Tom Merritt And that’s why he ……..

Nilay Patel That’s the funniest part about this.

Molly Wood That he – that expense.

Tom Merritt And that’s – the defense on his side is like, why would I do this. It was – because one of the controversies is she got paid for work that was never done. He says well it’s because – I don’t know if he says but that side says, she was signed up for a contract that was cancelled less than 30 days before it was supposed to start and that’s normal terms for a contract is that you go ahead and get paid. If you cancel less than 30 days, it’s just a coincidence that it’s this person. So who do you believe?

Molly Wood But now The Wall Street Journal is reporting apparently that people familiar with the situation, man there are so many of those out there told the Journal that Hurd and the unidentified contractor reached some kind of settlement over her charges but that it didn’t involve the exchange of money. But that there was in fact enough of infraction that there was some sort of settlement. But the other thing and maybe there’s...

Patrick Beja What kind of settlement doesn’t involve money?

Molly Wood I don’t know. Well, maybe like future jobs or like a diplomatic posting.

Tom Merritt I was wrong.

Molly Wood I was wrong.

Nilay Patel Well, no. If you look at it from the very like cut-and-dry like I’m a lawyer perspective, right. So I mean, to me it just sounds like they had this weird relationship, I mean I am just assuming that there is like some bump and grind going on, because it doesn’t make any sense.

Molly Wood Come on, there is always is.

Nilay Patel There has to be, right.

Molly Wood Yes. But I think that there was, I sort of feel like there is, I am not trying to – I don’t want to sound really jaded about the world, but like this is the kind of thing that a CEO goes down for like in this day and age a CEO gets the boot over bump and grinding with the contractor and/or kind of goofy expense reports, like something about this is super fishy. That’s the official term.

Nilay Patel Here’s my like my dry, lawyer interpretation. So they are like – they’re fooling around and then she wants something and can’t get it so she says well, I will sue you for sexual harassment. He calls the bluff, she hires Gloria Allred, celebrity lawyer. Gloria writes HP, HP freaks out right because it’s their CEO who has doubled their stock price since he has been the CEO. They freak out. They do their investigation. They find that there is no sexual harassment because there is consensual activity going on, where she is – right, this is consensual. So the harassment lawsuit – holes in the water. But Hurd has been essentially flying this contractor he hired around on HP’s dime to just be friends. And that’s not okay, right? Because he is – it’s the chief executive of the company defrauding his company, embezzling money from the company.

Molly Wood But senators stay in office for that kind of thing, that’s the thing that I find so amazing. Like why does he have to resign?

Patrick Beja Well, it’s not because the senators do something bad that it should be allowed for everyone to do it, I would take the opposite view of this Molly, senators should not stay in office for doing this.

Molly Wood I am not saying that I approve, I am saying that my jaded view of this is like, really?

Patrick Beja You did say that, you just did.

Molly Wood No, come on. What I am saying is I can’t believe that they let him go over this considering that he has doubled the stock price, considering that he actually brought them out from under the shadow of the Fiorina scandal, considering that all that he really did to turn around this company, the fact that he was then ousted over this, which I don’t mean to suggest that it’s minor but it’s like really?

Patrick Beja But we don’t even know what this is.

Nilay Patel Just weeks ago if…

Molly Wood It smells, it seems fishy to me. I think there is more to it is all I am saying, I think more is going on.

Nilay Patel Besides, I think if they said we need you to leave and he said no, I don’t want to and they said there will be a lawsuit unless we settle this one and you leave. And I think that that’s what drove it, that whoever this woman is said, unless he leaves there will be a lawsuit and the last things HP needs right now is a sexual harassment like high profile scandalous sexual harassment lawsuit. So he leaves, she gets paid and HP gets to say things like we are upping guidance for the third quarter and I think that that was just the very cold calculated move that they made, they said well, if you don’t leave she files and we don’t want her to file, so you have to go. And that’s what it sounds like to me and that’s probably why he is so unhappy right now, because I don’t think he wanted to leave. I think he probably said what Molly said, which is, I’ll pay you back, I mean who cares what I do with a few thousand dollars, like I’m the CEO. I can fly whoever I want, right? And check out my performance. And I think that’s why all of a sudden you hear these rumbles of, it didn’t happen quite this way.

Molly Wood And there is this alley insider story today that’s saying that Hurd’s people are denying the things that the Board of Director said. So, you may be right that the board forced him out and he is feeling like it’s over the top.

Tom Merritt There’s an article on…

Nilay Patel What’s weird is that his statement is on – the board, the PR that HP put out there is a statement from him being like ‘I didn’t live up to these values’ and then 24 hours later, 48 hours later he’s like, ‘it turns out I did,’ which is just strange. I think there’s a lot going on that we’ll never know.

Tom Merritt Reuters has an article where they quote Michael Malone who wrote the book the HP Way about how Fiorina ran afoul of a lot of entrenched interests at HP during her tenure and was essentially forced out because she wasn’t following the HP way, and she complains that people at HP were resistant to change and now he thinks, Malone, the author thinks that Hurd kind of ran afoul of that same culture and they are trying to reassert what’s called the HP way and that is the sort of culture that was created by Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard back in the day and there is a lot of old timers still at HP who have momentum behind them and you see this happen in companies where the person in charge can fall to the interests that are entrenched and almost like a meme, these sort of systems of thinking that perpetuate themselves over the decades and it just spits them back out and that may be what happened to Hurd.

Molly Wood There’s a really interesting quote in the alley insider today, story today saying that if Hurd defrauded HP by submitting bogus expense reports to cover up a relationship or worse embezzled money by having the company fly his love interest around on the company dime. He should be fired for cause and not get a dime of severance, instead he was let go with a package that is now costing HP shareholders $10 billion and so alley insider is saying the board owes shareholders an explanation.

Nilay Patel No, it’s 12 million in cash and another like 30 to 40 million thereabouts depending on the stock price when things vest in stock, right? And then in 18 months of health and dental just because we have to be nice and then it’s the stock price that fell.

Molly Wood That’s what I was saying, is it’s costing shareholders $10 billion total once one you add in all the severance and the stock price drop. So you do have to wonder if it is that HP way thing like what the hell are the board, what is the board doing.

Nilay Patel But do you know why, so we put up the 8-K, the SEC 8-K that explains the severance agreement and the reason he is getting the cash payment is that he has agreed to not sue HP in the future for wrongful termination.

Tom Merritt But he didn’t agree not to grumble about them on the Internet.

Molly Wood Like a lot. A lot, a lot.

Nilay Patel Exactly, so he’s allowed to [Indiscernible] (35:30) as much as he likes, but that’s why his name isn’t connected closely to any of these reports, that’s why it’s source is familiar people briefing the matter. It’s not Mark Hurd says, ‘I was fired for no reason. Hp made the wrong move. I am suing.’

Tom Merritt You know who a source familiar with the matter is, Mark Hurd. He is probably the most familiar with these matters.

Nilay Patel But again, sure it looks bad, I think my aggrieved headline on engadget was HP CEO, Mark Hurd, rewarded with $40 million severance package for harassing contractor or something, that’s like, it definitely feels wrong, but he is being paid to leave after defrauding his company, but from HPs perspective a lawsuit here would have been even worse, right. Having the former CEO sue HP for wrongful termination, that’s bad and that’s going to depress the stock price even further. So this really feels like HP is cutting its losses and just trying to move on. There’s like, ‘here’s some money, is everybody happy, here’s some money, please shut up, okay’ and like that’s what it sounds like to me.

Molly Wood Also think…

Patrick Beja That would only work if he actually did it, if he was actually very, like he was clearly guilty of what he is being accused of. So then him then coming and saying ‘I did nothing wrong’ is sort of strange. Okay, Molly you won me over, I think there is something fishy, there’s something else.

Molly Wood Thank you.

Tom Merritt I think he did something wrong, but not as wrong as HP is making it out to be and so that’s why you are getting the grumbling, not the outright protest but the grumbling of like, this is making me look worse than it should of because I really didn’t do that much.

Nilay Patel So my, my shady interpretation here is that she threatened a lawsuit and to erase the possibility of the lawsuit and to get her to settle and be quiet they had to fire him and they get him to not sue them for wrongful termination after he was fired, they had to pay him severance.

Molly Wood Yeah but do you really think that…

Patrick Beja I think we should write the movie version of this.

Molly Wood You don’t think a multinational company the size of HP can make her go away, can settle out of court, I just don’t, I cannot imagine a world in which the lawsuit is that damaging, especially since now, apparently now there is this breaking news like she has come forward and said ‘I am really sorry that he got fired and we didn’t have sex or any other form of intimate relationship and…’

Tom Merritt I did not have sex with that CEO.

Molly Wood This just popped up on Twitter.

Nilay Patel She - is this sourced on Twitter?

Patrick Beja What would be your Hollywood movieconclusion to that story, I am curious what would you imagine is going to happen if this is a movie.

Molly Wood The conclusion, well hopefully they run away and live happily ever after not having sex or whatever.

Nilay Patel They are going to walk the Appalachian Trail together.

Molly Wood Yeah, maybe, they are just going to go, they are going to go have like a monk like life together.

Tom Merritt Yeah, this is a New York Times’ story right, that you’re looking at?

Molly Wood I am seeing on alley insider but yeah it’s like Jody Fisher.

Tom Merritt Jody Fisher appeared in a number of steamy movies including Sheer Passion and Intimate Obsession. So she can play herself in Patrick’s movie. She said “I was prepared for those events, worked very hard and enjoyed working for HP. I was surprised and saddened that Mark Hurd lost his job over this that was never my intention.”

Molly Wood I have a feeling that Tom may be right that there was something and if that’s true, if the board kind of used this as a reason like the big stick to lever him out of HP, then I sort of think that they have not done right by their shareholders, because it’s cost them a lot of money and also this guy was by all accounts a successful CEO.

Patrick Beja If even her is coming out saying ‘that’s not what I wanted,’ it probably means she wasn’t going to sue which means again there is something fishy and HP wanted to get rid of him. Wow, it’s getting super interesting.

Molly Wood It is, an it’s also evolving literally by the second, like we’ll probably have another update by the end of the show.

Tom Merritt This is great, she is a political science major from Texas Tech University. So she has a degree in poly sci, was vice president of a commercial real estate committee, worked on the house select committee on narcotics abuse and control before she went to HP and she has been an actress in R-rated movies says New York Times.

Molly Wood R-rated movies. ‘An actress identified in the HP scandal.’ as if…

Nilay Patel NBC television [indiscernible] (39:43). So this, I haven’t seen this. Man this story just keeps getting better and better.

Molly Wood It does.

Nilay Patel Look if she is so sorry and surprised and saddened…

Patrick Beja He is going to keep typing with his right hand for Engadget now.

Molly Wood But I think she probably…

Nilay Patel If she is so sorry about this why did she file a sexual harassment claim from her attorney?

Molly Wood Because I think she was totally intending for this to go the horrible awful way that business as usual incidents like this go, which is, she files a claim, HP pays her a bunch of money and she goes away. I mean I really believed that that was probably the plan, right?

Tom Merritt If you want to get really conspiratorial, [indiscernible] (40:36) encourages her.

Molly Wood Maybe.

Nilay Patel No, the statement says, I resolved my claim with Mark privately without litigation, I do not intend to comment on it further.

Molly Wood And so there was probably not going to be –

Nilay Patel ‘I done got paid.’

Molly Wood Right, and there was not going to be a giant lawsuit. And then all of a sudden the Board was like, ‘I don’t know, these expense reports look a little irregular, you’re out of here?’ What? It’s just bizarre.

Tom Merritt ‘In a world…’

Molly Wood ‘In a world.’

Tom Merritt ‘Where expense reports are fraudulent.’

Molly Wood I am in big trouble, because I can never remember exactly how much the taxi cost. Like – I’m sorry!

Patrick Beja That is where it’s coming from. You’re actually afraid that you’re going to get ousted.

Molly Wood I don’t know, this is not a comfortable precedent for me.

Nilay Patel Hey, I’ve been angling for my $12 million severance for Engadget for a couple of days now [indiscernible] (41:18) gotten more and more suspicious.

Molly Wood Now you know.

Tom Merritt Now you’ve got a how-to.

Molly Wood That’s right. Miss Fisher may be looking for work.

Tom Merritt The Blackberry story…

Nilay Patel I’m looking for softcore actress to come to dinner with me a few times a week in our [indiscernible] (41:12). If anybody’s interested, just give me a call.

Molly Wood No sex necessary.

Tom Merritt You know where to find him.

Nilay Patel Exactly, just be my close friend. And then, you know, we’ll see how it goes.

Tom Merritt This is making the Blackberry story pale in comparison.

Nilay Patel [Indiscernible] (41:29) Silk Stalkings [indiscernible] (41:30).

Molly Wood This story is glorious. This is the best tech story to come along in years.

Tom Merritt There needs to be a car wreck.

Molly Wood You’re right. Like that Gizmondo guy.

Tom Merritt Yeah. That’s all we’re missing.

Molly Wood Totally. Man, she should run away with the Gizmondo guy.

Tom Merritt And a bag of money that they uncover somewhere.

Molly Wood Yep. And hopefully some coke. Why not?

Tom Merritt Well, because there’s no sex, so it’s going to be Coca-Cola.

Molly Wood Right.

Nilay Patel Can I just – I just want to make this random IMDb, because these titles are all so good. So we’ve got Intimate Obsession in 1992, Silk Stalkings in ’93, Little Big League – just randomly in the middle there. Body of Influence 2, Dead by Dawn, Sheer Passion, and Blood Dolls. As Jodi Cody.

Molly Wood As Jody Cody!

Tom Merritt Well that’s good, because see her name’s Jody, so she didn’t – she could respond naturally.

Patrick Beja Oh man, this story. This is like, you know, this is the stuff that we don’t run it on Engadget, right, it’s like not important now. But it’s so good, so juicy.

Tom Merritt Seriously. Jay Spin there said, ‘when did TWIT turn into Access Hollywood? When did tech news turn into Access Hollywood?’

Molly Wood Oh, all right, we’ll take about the Blackberry thing now.

Nilay Patel The challenge is going to be to make the Blackberry story as interesting…

Molly Wood Right, how are we going to sex this up?

Tom Merritt So, Saudi Arabia has come to an agreement with Blackberry over allowing the service to continue. They were threatening to get rid of it – to block the messenger service, particularly – of Blackberry in Saudi Arabia. It was down for about four hours on Friday, then it came back up. And now they say – they’ve come to an agreement where Blackberry will run a server in Saudi Arabia, or possibly provide some other kind of access. The details are still sort of dribbling out. But Rim was really resistant to this, like, right up to the day that Saudi Arabia said no, it started with United Arab Emirates saying they were going to do the same thing in October, then Saudi I think moved up the deadline.

Nilay Patel I think it started with – almost two years ago, it started with India saying, we are worried about the security implications of Blackberry and smartphones have become more popular in this country. We’re going to shut them first.

Tom Merritt The Emirates were the first to put a deadline on it and say, by October we’re going to shut all these services, right?

Molly Wood Yeah.

Nilay Patel But India put a deadline on it, but then, you know, I would just say the Indian infrastructure and the bureaucracy there, deadlines don’t mean a lot. So I mean there was a deadline on it for a long time.

Tom Merritt So RIM, RIM was like, it’s an Indian deadline, forget about it.

Nilay Patel Yeah, exactly.


Tom Merritt But the Saudi deadline became the worst, because it came within a few days of Saudi Arabia saying, we need messenger service blocked, unless we can get a tap. RIM said, you know, it’s encrypted end to end, we don’t have the keys, we couldn’t give you the data if we wanted. Now it turns out, oh, I guess we can operate a server and I guess we can give you access. What’s really going on in this story? I mean what has RIM said that is not exactly true and what isn’t here?

Molly Wood Right. It sounds like it’s a little bit like…

Patrick Beja I see what you’re doing. You’re opening the door for making this story more interesting. What is really going on?

Molly Wood What’s RIM’s IMDb profile?

Nilay Patel How many episodes of Silk Stalkings has RIM been on?

Molly Wood It does sound like RIM has caved a little bit. I mean one suspects and has suspected all along that the U.A.E. and Saudi Arabia have been really saying, what we want is the ability to monitor traffic on these networks. And that RIM had said, sorry, you know, our security is too good. We’re encrypted end to end and we store the data offshore and that’s the deal. But they have maybe now said, you know, yeah, we want to remain the global language of business if you will. And so okay, we’ll out some servers in your country.

Tom Merritt I think RIM is also gambling on the business community in these countries putting pressure back. And that’s why they played it right up to the deadline. Because the folks who do business in Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, now Kuwait, Indonesia has made some – or I think it was Singapore maybe has made some remarks that they are interested in having some sort of situation like this. The business users don’t want these services blocked. They don’t want their email blocked, they don’t want their web blocked, they don’t want messenger blocked. And it didn’t work out that way. So they kind of had their bluff called, it sounds like.

Molly Wood I think they did.

Nilay Patel Oh no, but this is a structural issue for RIM, right? This is the way Blackberrys work, is that you have a server that the authorities can look at and say, well, all the traffic is going through that server, we want access to that server. And they can’t say that to Google, they can’t say it to Microsoft, they can’t say it to Apple, right? They can’t say it to Nokia. Because none of these countries run – or companies rather – run a single server where every phone connects to it and all the traffic is routed through this network of servers. And that is both the strength and weakness of the Blackberry design, where you have the BBM server, where you have the BIS server for the consumer, and you have the enterprise server for the businesses. Well, when you have an all-Microsoft system, every business has its own exchange server. And so it’s harder for the U.A.E. or India or Indonesia to say, we need access to all of these servers. But with RIM, they can say, we want access central BRS server for all your consumers and we want access to the BBM server.

Molly Wood Well it’s good that RIM – the good thing in this is that even RIM did cave a little bit, they didn’t cave all the way and they did not give them access to those centralized serves, which would have comprised a lot more data than just the people who are using those phones inside those countries. I mean it may be that this is just going to mark a sea change for RIM, that they can’t necessarily operate in such a I guess kind of a cloud way, that they are going to have to be willing to operate more local servers. But it makes me wonder what – because this ban applied to foreign travelers are well, and it makes me wonder what the global business marketplace is going to have to say. Are they going to say, I actually don’t want to use my Blackberry in Saudi Arabia now, because they can monitor my data.

Tom Merritt And this is the thing, which is, why didn’t RIM say from the beginning, oh we could set up a server in Saudi Arabia?

Molly Wood Yeah.

Tom Merritt Why did they dig their heels in? I mean – you’re right, Nilay, this is what got them in trouble, the fact that they run a centralized server. I mean they’ve – we’ve seen the same thing with P-2-P services. You run a centralized server, you become responsible for all that data and you have to answer for it. It looks like the answer here was to take one of those servers and put it in the country. Why didn’t they come out with that at first?

Patrick Beja Maybe it was a cost thing, they didn’t want to incur the costs of having a server and maintain it in apparently this country and – sorry – maybe they have to put a server in each of them to have them independent and not have the Saudi Government spying on the U.A.E. server, they’re going to have to have one server in each country. And then they were thinking, man, if every country is going to start demanding that they have specific infrastructure for them, it’s going to snowball, so –

Tom Merritt And now we’re seeing that, yeah.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Nilay Patel And also, I mean, security is – RIM is very proud of how secure BlackBerrys are, and for good reason, right? And so as soon as they start chipping away that armor and saying, well you’re BlackBerrys end-to-end secure in the United States, but as you travel throughout the world, different people can locate your traffic. That really takes away from sort of the bulletproof BlackBerry image. I can see what – and RIM is a very conservative and very slow moving company when it comes to things like that. It’s funny to me that, for example, the BlackBerry is renowned as the best phone to do email on, still, to this day, right? And it doesn’t do IMAP. Like – bonkers, right? The best email phone in the world doesn’t use – support the world most widely used email standard. Why? Because they want you to go through BlackBerry internet server and get that experience. Because they’re very proud of it, and they think it’s a better experience. I don’t think they want to start chipping away at what they consider their foundational strengths, and one of those foundational strengths is security.

Molly Wood Well, they didn’t want to but now they have. I mean I think that it’s true that they were holding out as much as they could, but now they have, and it’s a slippery slope and it’s going to be –

Tom Merritt And now Kuwait has said they want RIM to block pornographic websites. And then we know the United Arab Emirates still wants blocking. And Lebanon has spoken up and said that they’re going to consider the – and so there’s a snowball effect that’s happening, which is going to make BlackBerry seem like the least secure. And that’s what your point now here, is there a more secure alternative to BlackBerry given all of this?

Nilay Patel Well, right, so. You can’t go to Apple and say, we want the iPhone to block pornographic websites in Kuwait. You have to go to the carrier, right? And that makes sense. And so there’s no uproar when we hear about Kuwait’s national carrier blocking websites or snooping on traffic, it’s a smaller effect.

Tom Merritt That’s a smaller [indiscernible] (50:17) anyway, yeah, exactly. Because people can say well, that’s Kuwait.

Nilay Patel [Indiscernible] adult site (49:59) in Saudi Arabia is snooping on traffic on the iPhone because we know it’s happening because it’s not on a device. With RIM and with BlackBerry, there is that server. And it’s the focal point for everyone because now RIM is operating the service and they can do things to their users.

Molly Wood Very clever what they have done.

Nilay Patel And because that server exists, I mean it’s a structural issue for them.

Patrick Beja So what happened in the past week that all of a sudden made everyone absolutely need to look into the BlackBerry messages?

Nilay Patel I think we are [indiscernible] (50:28).

Tom Merritt Well, it started with the Emirates asking for kind of throwing down the gauntlet saying we are going to block this stuff.

Patrick Beja Yeah, exactly. That’s what I am saying. Why did – because BlackBerry has been operating everywhere for a long while.

Molly Wood Of course they have been --

Patrick Beja Why did today all of a sudden they needed to look at everything?

Molly Wood Right. Maybe they’ve just figured it out. Maybe it was some grand strategy to realize, hey, you know, if we could get local servers, I mean it might have been just a problem that they’ve just now got around to or they’ve just thought of the solution. I mean it seems very clever. In some way it’s sort of a coordinated attack on, as Nilay put it, the BlackBerry infrastructure, the basic fundamental operation of BlackBerry. And now there is a huge hole inside of that ship.

Patrick Beja Maybe the Arab countries are investing in Apple and they want to sink RIM, right?


Tom Merritt I wouldn’t say that Apple is the most secure way to do a phone call though.

Molly Wood Yeah, no, not necessarily. Patrick, [ph] you’ve a case of conspiracy, (51:20) I love it.


Nilay Patel The iPhone is absolutely the most secure way to make a phone call because if you think somebody is listening on you, just hold it wrong and you drop the call.


Tom Merritt I was wondering where you were going.

Molly Wood I know. Me too. I was like, what?

Nilay Patel No, I think it’s a snowball thing. Again, this has been going on in India for two years, right. The Indian government is saying we want BlackBerry servers or the ability to look at BlackBerry BBM traffic, in particular. With the criminals using it, we want to be able to get in there and look at what they are doing. BlackBerry said no. India is saying we have a deadline. BlackBerry is saying, well, you are also the world’s largest democracy and nothing happens on time. And India being like, turns out you’re right, over and over and over again. And I think it’s different when Saudi Arabia says our Royal Family wants to shut down BlackBerry in his/her country [indiscernible] (52:08).

Molly Wood Yeah, and we’re doing it on Friday. I mean Saudi Arabia said we are doing it on Friday. And they said that on a Wednesday. There’s kind of – and all of a sudden you’ve got the Secretary of State involved. You’ve got people talking about this is a strange issue.

Nilay Patel But I mean UAE is a – it’s a very small area. It’s three kingdoms, right. And when they want to do things, they are done. And I think that’s the difference here. This has been going on in that region for a long time, right, throughout India, Pakistan, the rest of Middle East, and I think it just finally just happened. I think the wheels fell off the cart for RIM and their bluffs are called really hard. And all of those countries I think have been interested in this for a long time.

Tom Merritt [Ph] Folks (52:45) in the chat room are pointing out too that the popular theory of why it came up now was the investigation into the alleged Mossad assassination attempt. And that’s

Molly Wood Oh, really?

Tom Merritt Those guys were using BlackBerrys and in the course of the investigation, they couldn’t get some of the data they wanted to investigate the assassinations. And that’s what started this turning against RIM saying well, fine, we can’t allow this to happen again. We need to be able to get this kind of information in the future. But India has spoken back up again since this came up

Nilay Patel Yeah, you’re right.

Tom Merritt And said, yeah, we’re still on this saying –

Molly Wood Lebanon has joined too.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood Yeah, I mean it’s going to snowball. There is no question. And good question, Patrick. I mean let me get to the heart of the question or the matter which is like, why is it now?

Patrick Beja And didn’t BlackBerry have issues – I mean RIM have issues with Russia about this a while ago?

Tom Merritt Yeah, they solved it by putting a server in Russia as far as I know.

Patrick Beja So shocking news.

Tom Merritt Yeah. So it was not a big surprise that they were going to have to end up putting a server in the country. It’s just that they were so vociferously insisting they couldn’t earlier this week.

Patrick Beja We did it in Russia but they have machineguns.

Tom Merritt Yeah, exactly.

Molly Wood Exactly. Shall we net neutrality?

Tom Merritt We shall in a moment because first we have to thank our sponsor Squarespace

Patrick Beja You didn’t --

Tom Merritt The fast and easy way to publish a high quality website or blog – I didn’t transition into – I just transitioned into it.

Molly Wood I ruined it. It was my fault.

Tom Merritt It was a perfect transition. It doesn’t have to be like directly connected. But thanks for pointing out. That was a bad transition, Patrick.

Patrick Beja I love Squarespace.

Nilay Patel Put a server in your house to run your blog.

Tom Merritt That’s right. Actually it’s kind of like that. Squarespace is a dedicated server for running your blog. So it’s got an easy-to-use UI, optimized for beginners and CSS experts. You don’t have to know a thing. But if you do, you can still take control of your blog, hundreds of design templates, lots of modules. You can add forums and photo galleries and form builders, collect email addresses from people if you don’t want to put your email address out there. You want to actually have people email you without knowing your address, you can build a form, all plug-and-play stuff, website tracking to find out who’s visiting your site and how well it’s going, all of that done on their servers.

You don’t have to mess with it. You get too many people. They upgrade the servers. They adapt. They’re flexible. So why not try it out for free? You don’t need a credit card. You just go to Import your website. They have imported tools for Blogger, for WordPress, for TypePad and just give it a whirl, see if you like it. If you do and you decide to purchase it, you get 10% off when you enter the offer code, TWiT, at

Now, let’s talk a little net neutrality, perhaps a Squarespace blog for protesting net neutrality or supporting net neutrality. It’s a transition on the other end, for Patrick.

Molly Wood Or explaining what in the hell is going on with this [indiscernible] (55:43)?

Tom Merritt Right. So this one’s have been – we have had a lot of thorny like unusual stories. Usually, August is dead for tech news but this week, thankfully, since I had to do TWiT this week, it’s full of deep rich stories. Earlier this week it broke that Google and Verizon had created a secret way to settle net neutrality.

So depending on who you read, it worked in different ways. Bloomberg was saying that wireline service from Verizon would continue to be net neutral but wireless service would be able to be managed in whatever way Verizon saw fit. This was an agreement between Google and Verizon.

New York Times reported that Google had agreed that Verizon could charge for certain priority access, which would be considered a violation of net neutrality on wireline or wireless and then Mark or – I am sorry, Eric Schmidt came out and said, you know what would be okay – and he wasn’t commenting specifically on the story, but he said what would be okay is if you said video, all video could be prioritized over email.

It’s just quality of service management. So we’re not saying that a particular video service like YouTube would be prioritized, but video prioritized over email, he would be fine with that. Then as Google and Verizon were denying this thing, New York Times got it wrong, everything is wrong about this story, the FCC popped in and said, hey, by the way, the talks we have been having with not only Google and Verizon but a ton of other stakeholders in the area including non-profit groups, they are off, we are done, we are done. We are pulling out of this.

Nilay Patel They have failed.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood Well, let Google and Verizon work this out.

Nilay Patel Yeah, this is a – FCC regulation is thorny and complicated. And a lot of these stories inflated issues and got things wrong in ways that suggest to me that they weren’t – that all the facts aren’t there.

Molly Wood Well, I think, yeah.

Nilay Patel So the idea that wireline services would remain net neutral is very strange, right, because traditionally when we talk about Verizon’s wireline services, we are talking about their phone services and those services are already neutral. They are neutral for decades, right. And you can plug in whatever phone you want. What they are talking about is like Verizon DSL, right, and Verizon FiOS and though – I men that’s actually really important. That’s part of the heart of the net neutrality debate. And Verizon and Google, they don’t have the ability to agree that they will remain neutral. It doesn’t make any sense unless the trade is Verizon or Google, we really want your network to be neutral. We know that we don’t. What we will do is we will trade you. So if you agree to leave FiOS open to everybody, we will pay you to have YouTube be faster on Verizon wireless. And that’s fine.

Molly Wood And I think that’s exactly what’s happening here. And I think that I suspect – my theory is that’s [indiscernible] (58:34) are making but I think it’s not going to be fine in the future because I think it is very clear that whatever deal is made between Google and Verizon will be the deal that affects future legislation and future regulation because the FCC has basically said on the one hand, we don’t have – we now according to the courts don’t have the authority to regulate this or backing away from re-regulation and we are throwing up our hands, we are saying you guys work it out and we’ll follow your lead.

Nilay Patel This is what’s really strange to me about this is because the FCC isn’t backing away. They are actually – their new plan is much more aggressive than their old plan. And the old plan is what the courts said was they didn’t have the authority to do.

Molly Wood Yeah, but the new plan I think they are almost certainly going to abandon because they have encountered so much more resistance than they expected to that sort of third way, reclassification.

Tom Merritt And the new plan would be the reclassification as a – was it Title I service or Title II.

Nilay Patel Title II.

Tom Merritt Title II service, which means you are back to being governed as a – more like a phone company than this new service which is more like a cable company.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Nilay Patel The administration – our current – the Obama administration is very supportive of net neutrality, but the reclassification is the only way that the FCC can act under the scope of their current powers. And they do in fact have the ability to re-regulate like that. And that is what they are empowered to do. They can say we are changing this service from --

Molly Wood But Congress was up in arms, I mean Republicans, Democrats, they encountered a ton of resistance to re-regulation that I think they really weren’t expecting. They were – Senators, House representatives, all kinds of groups that you would other – even Google, which would think might be in favor, was pretty tepid on the idea of re-regulation. And I don’t think that they – I don’t think the FCC has the support for that, that they were hoping it would have, and I feel like they’ll probably back away. And they’re hoping that the marketplace in the form of these kind of backroom deals between maybe Google and Verizon, will figure it out. But what I think is that wireless is going to be abandoned. In terms of the next battleground, wireless is going to be left to be tiered to hell and back.

Patrick Beja Can I say this story scares the bejesus out of me.

Tom Merritt Is that French?


Tom Merritt I’m sorry.

Molly Wood Yeah, that was French.

Patrick Beja Yes, exactly. But I’ve been hearing more and more people going from ‘net neutrality is important and it’s the founding principles of the Internet and it’s really important not to abandon it’ to – with this story all of a sudden – first of all Google being sort of, ‘we don’t really know what they have been talking about,’ and then, ‘well, maybe if it’s only for certain types of files and you don’t discriminate the company or if it’s only for awareness, then it’s okay.’ I think [ph] Coolie (61:17) was saying, well, maybe the business could figure it out, and you know free hand of the market will do something perfect with all of this.

How can people – I’m sorry, I’m going into a little bit of a rant here – but how can people all of a sudden be abandoning net neutrality like this? It’s horrendous. The idea that we can start with maybe wireless and maybe video and maybe – no! we cannot go down that road. And this is one of the places where we absolutely, absolutely need regulation. We don’t need the FCC to get hands-off and to start saying, well, we’re not going to be talking about it and we [indiscernible] (61:53) tech journalists to start thinking maybe businesses are going to be taking care of this, because whatever we decide on now is going to be the foundation for what happens later. And we don’t know what we’re going to need later. The internet evolves so fast because we have no restrictions. And we get innovation – and you all know that. But I was terrified at the reaction to the story. And I’m certainly very happy that you guys here seem to be staying that maybe we could actually protect it and fight for it.

Tom Merritt I was quite…

Molly Wood [Indiscernible] (62:27) agreement, Patrick.

Tom Merritt I was quite confused by this entire story until I read Schmidt’s quote. And then I realized this – that fits in where I have been uncomfortable with net neutrality is the idea that we take away management tools from network administrators. Like, you can write net neutrality laws in a way that would really be bad for the Internet and would be bad for bandwidth. And so what Schmidt seemed to be saying was, quality of service where we don’t discriminate on content but content type. Because if your email gets delayed by a few milliseconds, you will never notice. But if your video gets delayed, you start to notice. And if your VoIP gets delayed you really notice.

Patrick Beja No that doesn’t…

Molly Wood But he also wrote…

Patrick Beja That doesn’t work, Tom, that doesn’t work. You start with video and you say, okay the Internet today, we need video to be delivered fast. And that’s the state of the Internet at – in 2010. But what happens when some other sort of data transmission starts to – some guy in his garage imagines that we’re going to make, I don’t know BitTorrent for example.

Tom Merritt Then the ISP is allowed to adapt to the – you don’t write it into the law that this is what you can prioritize, but you do say, look you can prioritize by content type, not by content delivery.

Patrick Beja [Indiscernible] (63:33) they’re never, if you start saying it’s okay to…

Nilay Patel [Indiscernible] (63:37) every net neutrality proposal the FCC has put forward is the ability for network operators and ISPs to manage their networks. I don’t think the FCC has ever said, we want to legislate or regulate how you manage your network or how you deliver quality of service to your users. What they are saying is, we don’t want you to prioritize certain content from certain providers over others. We want you to manage your network [indiscernible] (64:01)…

Tom Merritt That’s saying the same thing in a different way.

Nilay Patel And if it’s not fair, we want there to be some sort of process or litigation that will resolve the issue. Right? So we want to say, these are the rules, you have to be fair. And then you can do whatever you want under the rules. And if you don’t do them, the agreed party can sue you.

Molly Wood The thing I think we need to watch out for, though – like you said, Patrick, in terms of the future precedent – is that wireless broadband is considered even by the FCC to be the savior of broadband access in America. That it’s going to solve the last mile problem. That in the future, most of us will consume our data over wireless networks and not as much over wired networks. That’s the new infrastructure and it is the new battleground. And I think that Google is absolutely about to sell us down the river when it comes to tiering wireless networks. Because the telcos are holding all the cards. Verizon, Sprint, AT&T can say, we’re just not going to build out our wireless broadband networks, we’re not going to build out that infrastructure to save you all from the coming bandwidth crunch, unless we have a guarantee that we can prioritize traffic as we see fit, and that we can charge for that traffic as we see fit. And it was very fuzzy on that.

Nilay Patel So let me put this right, because I [indiscernible] (65:11) agree with you. So, Molly – I mean I think that’s incredibly like, poignant, and I think you’ve got it nailed.

Molly Wood Thanks.

Nilay Patel [Indiscernible] (65:20) because I think Verizon and Google right now have a very close relationship with Android and what they’re doing with Android. And I think Google [indiscernible] (65:31) to the top of the show, one day the iPhone’s is going to be on Verizon. And if Google already has a relationship to prioritize traffic to Android devices from Google services...

Molly Wood Yup.

Nilay Patel On Verizon’s network in place, the Android phones will always be more attractive than the iPhone on that network.

Molly Wood And you can’t trust these companies – I mean the reason that this became an issue with Comcast and TimeWarner is that they started getting into content delivery. They had a conflict of interest when it came to their competing services. Because on the one hand, they were providing the pipe, but on the other hand they were providing content that they wanted to get through the pipe more quickly. And that’s why their tiering became so unnerving. The same proposition exists with the telcos and the same proposition like you point out, Nilay, exists with Google. They are in a position to want to prioritize not only traffic in the form of YouTube video, but traffic to specific devices in the form of Android devices. And don’t think for a minute that Google is going to hold on to the vaunted net neutrality principles when it comes to increasing market share and both of those [indiscernible] (66:29).

Tom Merritt And there’s a story kicking around that those data center containers that Google has had for years and years and years might be placed near Verizon data centers. And Google would pipe directly into the Verizon network so it never go out on the open Internet if you’re in Verizon, and they would be able to subvert any net neutrality regulation anyway.

Molly Wood Ugh! You just made me cry a little.

Patrick Beja Basically, this is the reason why you have so many workarounds and loopholes and ways that the people talking in secret rooms can circumvent what the law is, that you shouldn’t say, okay, you can do things in a fair way in these different sort of special cases. What you have to do to preserve the Internet people – this is important, I’m not talking about YouTube and videos of cats only – the Internet – in order to preserve it, you need to say, you cannot prioritize anything. Managing your network is another way of saying you can do whatever the hell you want and we should be.

Tom Merritt That’s where I don’t agree with that part.

Molly Wood Actually there was that Internet...

Patrick Beja No, you’re wrong.

Molly Wood No, you are!


Molly Wood Remember when we first started talking about net neutrality years ago and Internet2 was conducting all those tests? And they actually found that network management didn’t have to include prioritizing certain amounts of traffic. They released that study that said, we think that if you provide sufficient bandwidth, you don’t have to do QoS monitoring, and you don’t have to do that kind of packet level management to ensure that data gets – video travels better or voice travels better.

Nilay Patel I had this argument – that exact argument with the network administrator at the University of Chicago my freshman year of college in 1999. Saying, there is sufficient bandwidth on our network, I don’t know why you’re shutting down Napster. It turned out I was – that that conversation I’ve been having one form or another since I was a freshman in college. And I think it’s exactly right, if there’s enough bandwidth you can do wherever you want. The issue is that wireless networks don’t have enough bandwidth. And the reality is we need to allow those operators to manage their networks. It’s the balance that I think right now, we’re the seeing the pendulum swing wildly between two extremes. The FCC says you’re [indiscernible] (68:39) service, we’re going to regulate you like traditional landline telephones, everybody has to be neutral, and then there’s some push back, and then the pendulum swings wildly to Google and Verizon making a deal in secret in the backroom, and we just need – the oscillation has to stop at some point.

Tom Merritt Yeah the problem is we actually don’t know what that agreement was. We only know what it wasn’t. Google and Verizon very specifically said, no, we did not come to any kind of agreement about allowing prioritization of Verizon or Google content on the Internet. They specifically came out on that, which is unusual in these situations. Usually you get sort of some kind of vague plausible non-denial denial. So we know that wasn’t part of it. But we don’t know what they did agree on, if they agreed on anything.

Molly Wood And we also know that the stories, the Bloomberg, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times stories are still out there and have not been corrected or amended by those outlets. I mean that doesn’t – that doesn’t necessarily say it all. But the fact that The New York Times did not issue a correction after being flatly contradicted by Verizon and Google, I thought was also interesting. They did not say, we’re backing away from the story. Or even issue a clarification.

Tom Merritt So we have – we have wired communications, not wireline, as Nilay pointed out. But wired, like DSL and FiOS on the one hand. And the idea of whether we need quality of service management on that or not. And then we have wireless communication, which even though we’ve been talking about it in relations to quality of service, everything we’ve talked about has said, well, wireless, no net neutrality...

Molly Wood Yes.

Tom Merritt ...up for grabs. And Molly pointed out, that’s where it gets really scary and what I would like to add to that is what’s really interesting is, wireless, the FCC can regulate a lot more easily than wired because it’s a scarce resource that is managed by the FCC, it’s one of the reasons the FCC exists is to manage that spectrum that wireless exists in. So is it because the FCC just thinks, we’ll get to that later?

Molly Wood I think the FCC is – this is what I said on Buzz Out Loud I think they are pretty neutered. I mean I think that they have – I think they are backing away a little bit from reclassification. I think that they have been gutted by that Comcast ruling and I think they don’t have the administrative and congressional support that they thought they would have for exerting those regulations because they are such an intense – when net neutrality became a partisan issue it became a lot harder for the FCC to say this is about managing a crucial resource for America, which is what they were trying to say with broadband plan. But they were undercut at almost every turn.

Nilay Patel And I…

Tom Merritt Go ahead Nilay.

Nilay Patel I really agreed with their Title II reclassification. I thought their proposal that the FCC put out in a way they wanted to do it, made a lot of sense. Right? Because the best way to do something administratively and politically is to utilize the power that you already have. And to go out and try to seek new power is always a bad idea because somebody will challenge your ability to have that authority. So the FCC to say, well here is the authority that we have, we’re going to organize a way to use it as responsibly as possible and we’re going to do what we are tasked to do, made a lot of sense to me.

And it didn’t matter what they said. Right? They could have said anything. They could have said, we’re going to go back to Congress and ask for a bill giving us specific authority to regulate the Internet in a net neutral way. And they still would have gotten push-back from the industry. And I think it’s the vociferous lobbying from the ISPs and from the carriers who – that’s really – that’s pushing them back. It doesn’t matter how they try to do it.

Molly Wood Right.

Nilay Patel I think that’s really the problem with the FCC is going to have to solve, they really need to get some political capital and they really need to find a way to sell their side of the story in a way that – once you get Google and Verizon signing a deal on the backroom or even talking about it, once you’ve lost Google as a proponent of net neutrality, you really lost a lot. I mean I think they need to start rounding up university support, I think, research support, all those other stuff that they need to do because they don’t have the political capital to push net neutrality through right now. And that’s scary.

Molly Wood Yes. This week I wrote…

Nilay Patel I really thought that the Title II reclassification was a good plan and, you know Molly, I – maybe I’m more of an optimist than you…

Molly Wood I hope so.

Nilay Patel Stupid [indiscernible] (01:12:46).

Molly Wood I mean I hope you are right, you know. I wrote the most depressing column this week that I’ve ever written. I wrote net-neutrality is dead on wireless network, says on Molly Rants, because it was – it seemed to me that the tone of all of this was Google and Verizon are cutting a deal to exempt wireless networks from net neutrality and it is going to influence future policy.

Nilay Patel Well, just one wireless network.

Patrick Beja That’s the thing though Molly, it’s not that…

Molly Wood Yes, but that’s how it starts.

Tom Merritt It is a good point though because we actually have competition.

Patrick Beja We should defend it to the death.

Molly Wood Yes, no, I agree, yes.

Tom Merritt We actually have more competition in wireless networks than we have in wired, at least for the moment.

Molly Wood Right. For the moment.

Tom Merritt We will see if that lasts.

Patrick Beja We don’t have issue in wireless networks in France. We – they are working fine and are – we are getting video and everything. The solution is not to restrict – because if you give them the power to restrict the way data is funneled, then they are never going to [ph] explain (01:13:37). They are always going to say, well, you know our network is too small and we can’t – we can’t handle that kind of bandwidth. You have to tell them…

Molly Wood But they are not going to [indiscernible] (01:13:44) without it either. I think that they are saying – I think what they are saying right now is there is no way in hell that we are going to build out our mobile broadband infrastructure subject to the same restrictions that the wired carriers have had to deal with. No way are we going to be [indiscernible] (01:13:58) like that.

Patrick Beja They are building [ph] LTU (01:13:58), aren’t they? They are building 4G. They are already doing it.

Molly Wood They – I think they – they are building for sure, but they want to make sure that they are in control before they – before they are willing to say we don’t have the network scarcity that – because right now they are following that kind of network scarcity as…

Patrick Beja Free market – but it’s free market. Once one them has a proper 4G network, the other one is just going to have to follow, it’s competition.

Tom Merritt I love that the French man is defending the free market. It brings a tear to my eye.

Molly Wood I know. I wish I believed that that actually worked, as mush as you believe, wow. This is an upside-down bizarre world.

Patrick Beja They are doing it. Who is it who has a 4G network? It’s Sprint, isn’t it?

Tom Merritt Yes.

Molly Wood Sprint has this small one now, yes.

Tom Merritt Sprint with the Clearwire partnership has a WiMEX 4G network.

Nilay Patel Right, but it sounds really – [indiscernible] (1:14:48) competition in wireless all the time because, you know this is an age-old battle between people who have an access layer and a content layer right? And it’s like everybody who is sort of like us, the nerds of the world, they know that what you really want is a dumb pipe, and that’s all that anybody should really want, right? And that there should be competition between different dumb pipes over who is the fastest and most reliable. The problem is that all of – it’s like they are arrogant or they are pretentious or something and they believe that they should be more than dumb pipes. So Verizon wants to run an app store and have a media service and all this other stuff to differentiate their dumb pipe. And it’s that they don’t realize the best differentiation for their service would be being faster and more reliable, potentially at a cheaper price. And if they competed on those metrics, I think we’d all be better off.

Tom Merritt If we had more choices, they would be competing on those metrics, but the problem is most people have but 2 choices, sometimes only 1.

Nilay Patel Right.

Molly Wood And it maybe the case – we may – we do in fact have more competition among wireless carriers than we do among wired but even that isn’t saying much because the iPhone is still not available in 2 of the 3 states that I lived in most recently because they don’t have 3G there.

Nilay Patel Right, and the Motorola Droid isn’t available on AT&T and when you do sign up for [ph] Rolling Stones (76:10) you sign it to your contract…

Molly Wood Exactly.

Nilay Patel So the subscriber base isn’t mobile and it’s not…

Patrick Beja You guys, you guys know what the solution is right? I’m going to go back to my socialist friend self here and I’m going to make tom happy, you need government mandated wireless network covering the whole country that provides the…

Tom Merritt No.

Patrick Beja Minimum service so that…

Molly Wood And Tom’s like no, no, no…

Tom Merritt That does not make me happy.

Patrick Beja Now is you are talking crazy, my friend.

Molly Wood Well that was part – I mean that was part of the hope of the national broadband plan, that they would actually be able to mandate, to enact actual competition via a variety of methods and one of them just being simple metrics, you know, finding out what was available where and at what cost and really bringing transparency into the debate, and then hopefully freeing up spectrum and they had all of this steps that were hopefully going to increase competition but now they have just backed off. It’s they – I feel like they have thrown up their hands and they’ve said you know what, you guys work it out, we are just going to be over here. We are tired.

Patrick Beja So what not make you happy Tom? What’s the problem in that idea? Your situation now is so much better?

Tom Merritt No, because – well, yes, our wireless situation is the one hope when – because you can have a choice of 5 or 6 different providers instead of 1 or 2 and then you can have a free market work where people say you know what actually I’m going to choose Sprint, I’m going to choose MetroPCS, I’m going to choose somebody else because I don’t like the restrictions I’m getting and you don’t have to have anybody come in and a put a regulatory hand on it. I think there is a better chance of it working.

Patrick Beja That is – that is never going to work especially in wireless because when you are taking a wireless service you are expected to work in different parts of the country, and if you have segmented different little providers they are not going to be working everywhere, or they are going to be more expensive, I mean, wireless network is not working now, what we are saying is it could be working in the future if it was done properly, and you know if things were done properly BP wouldn’t have spilled millions of gallons of oil in the Mexican Gulf.

Tom Merritt Slippery slope.

Molly Wood Drink.

Tom Merritt I call it some derivation of Godwin’s law involving oil.

Molly Wood Totally.

Tom Merritt Damn it!

Molly Wood You can not go BP on us. You cannot go…

Patrick Beja Damn it!

Tom Merritt Train’s run on time. You know it’s not going to matter because a huge ice sheet just broke off from Greenland and it’s coming after us and we are all going to be eaten by a monster glacier.

Molly Wood Yes, my version of Godwin’s law is now is 2012.

Tom Merritt Yes.

Molly Wood You know, yes, I’m pretty worried about that. 2012.

Tom Merritt You heard about that, the largest arctic iceberg since 1962.

Molly Wood Yes.

Tom Merritt I’m saying theme park.

Molly Wood Ooh fun! Sledging galore!

Tom Merritt Floating theme park.

Patrick Beja If they could deal with in 1962 it’s not like, you know it was so long ago, it can’t have been that bad, we would have heard about it.

Tom Merritt [Indiscernible] (78:57) just went out and poured Lucky Strikes and whisky on it back then, melted the damn thing.

Molly Wood Lucky strikes.

Tom Merritt We don’t have that kind of…

Molly Wood Flame throwers.

Tom Merritt All right, let’s since we are talking about something ecological, let’s talk about Ford, makers of the Ford EcoBoost engine. Also a sponsor on TWiT it’s a 3.5 liter twin turbo charged 365 horse power V6 direct injection to increase fuel efficiency, Ford has brought both the twin turbos and direct injection together in the EcoBoost to deliver the performance of a much larger engine with the fuel economy of a smaller engine; it’s the first engine of it’s kind in North America, the first twin turbo-charged direct injection V6 in North America, and EcoBoost is standard on the new 2011 Taurus SHO, the Taurus SHO. It has an EPA estimated fuel economy of 17 in the city, 25 on the highway and the Taurus SHO and most of the Ford cars also voice activated SYNC, the in-car connectivity system that gives you true hands-free calling, turn-by-turn voice directions without having to purchase additional hardware, 911 assist, voice-activated music and podcasting, your text messages rattle out so you can keep connected while keeping your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel, and so much more in voice-activated SYNC.

You can check out both Ford EcoBoost engine and SYNC by driving the Taurus SHO, the Taurus SHO, at a Ford dealer near you. Stop by a Ford dealer this week and drive one.

All right. This just broke actually. Best Buy has had privileged status as the only iPod seller according to The New York Times, but Robert Stephens, CTO and Founder of its Geek Squad service posted a couple of prototype tablet photos on Twitter this week out of nowhere. It’s just an empty shell, but he says it carries Best Buy’s Rocketfish brand and it looks like Best Buy is going to have their own tablet.

Molly Wood Wow! Oh, like an Insignia...

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood …version. Interesting.

Tom Merritt It looks, according to this New York Times story, a little like an HP Slate. Do you think that’s what they did with them?

Molly Wood We have this hardware and we don’t really know what to do with it anymore. That would be interesting. It wouldn’t be surprising I guess if they did an Insignia tablet. Although, as with all, at this point, as with all tablet discussions just call me when there are some.

Tom Merritt Yeah. Right.

Molly Wood Seriously. Where are all of the iPad competitors? They are all in development in coming Q4. So either they all are going to be buried under them in Q4 or wouldn’t just….

Tom Merritt There’s the one that’s sold out at Kmart, $150 tablet, an Android tablet. So we actually saw one.

Molly Wood Actually people seem to like the Dell Streak too much to my surprise.

Tom Merritt The Streak has got a lot of hype.

Molly Wood That seems kind of – like popular. Yeah. All right, you go Best Buy, you make your Insignia really at this point? Anybody…

Tom Merritt Somebody.

Molly Wood Anybody is making a damn tablet. I am ready.

Tom Merritt Where’s the joojoo?

Molly Wood We had 2 separate joojoos coming to CNET and both of them failed, just died.

Tom Merritt Both of them?

Molly Wood Wouldn’t even turn on.

Patrick Beja Wow! You had 2 at CNET.

Molly Wood Yeah, review units.

Patrick Beja You mean, you had like 10% of the whole production run.

Molly Wood I think it was like – more like 15% for joojoo.

Tom Merritt WikiLeaks this week came under fire from the Pentagon who minced no words in telling them they did not have any conversations, they did not have permission and they asked them to return the classified documents.

Molly Wood We want our stuff back.

Tom Merritt Which most people have – even Boing Boing have been very kindly posting as delete even though used the words return the documents because we are assuming the Pentagon knows that they aren’t pouched.

Molly Wood I don’t know if they knew. No, I think [ph] they’re thinking (1:22:38) envelop is headed their way.

Tom Merritt They are digitized.

Patrick Beja As much as the [ph] net neutrality (1:22:42) story scares me this one makes me equally laugh and it’s extremely cute. I love it, please return those.

Molly Wood Can you give that back? Because they actually – they said, I think, in the letter that they said WikiLeaks, they said delete and return.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Molly Wood Maybe they are still trafficking in paper.

Tom Merritt Geoff Morrell, the Department’s Press Secretary, demands that WikiLeaks return immediately to the U.S. government all versions of documents obtained directly or indirectly from the Department of Defense. You know, to give them their credit they maybe meaning the original media upon which you got this.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Tom Merritt Whether it’s an email or USB drive or something so that they could do forensic analysis on it and try to trace where it came from. Because that’s what they are up to, is they are trying to find out how WikiLeaks got this stuff as well as asking them to take it down.

They’ve also banned the military from viewing WikiLeaks which a lot of people have pointed out it means that the terrorists can see WikiLeaks but the military can’t.

Molly Wood I think that’s kind of silly.

Tom Merritt And they’ve also…

Nilay Patel They don’t – our servicemen, like, don’t need to be looking at WikiLeaks.

Molly Wood I think it’s – yeah.

Nilay Patel I think the people who are doing intelligence probably still have access…

Tom Merritt And are probably not banned.

Molly Wood And the military has a leveling system about classification and need to know a knowledge sharing and I think that is perfectly reasonable for them to want to protect the classified structure by saying, look you don’t need to be reading WikiLeaks and finding out information that’s above your pay grade, I mean, that’s just how the military works.

Tom Merritt Although the opposite side of that is that I can read it but someone in the military can’t. So it’s almost a false ban. I mean there is easy way to get around it. The cat’s out of the bag there. The horse is not in the barn.

Molly Wood Yeah, true.

Patrick Beja Of course, it is. I mean it’s a very cheap shot in saying the terrorists can look at it and the military can’t. It’s very cheap. Of course, they are going to say, sorry, you guys shouldn’t be looking at it but who knows what’s going to happen. But they should still issue the order of you should look at it, and it’s above your secret level thing.

Tom Merritt They probably shouldn’t just be surfing the web at work. It’s more like a Facebook ban in that way when you think about it.

Molly Wood Well, then now there is this odd file that WikiLeaks has posted, a mysterious encrypted file labeled “insurance”. Should something happen to us, open this file. And apparently, it’s huge.

Tom Merritt Yeah, it’s a 1.4 gigabyte file with AES-256 encryption and lots of people have downloaded it. And nobody can crack into it with that kind of encryption, not easily, not really at all.

Molly Wood [ph] Going to be a while. (1:25:06)

Tom Merritt But everyone suspects that something should go down wrong, or Julian Assange should come up, face up in [ph] the Hudson (1:25:14), that keys would be released for people to unlock this file and my guess is it’s everything else that they have gotten regarding Afghanistan because they have said, there is lots of documents that they have received that they have not posted because they felt they were dangerous.

Patrick Beja And this is super scary. I mean this whole – WikiLeaks, I have always been extremely supportive of WikiLeaks [ph] in general (1:25:37) but I have to say, this story made me think, all right, wait a second, because these files, I mean the insurance thing aside, the whole military correspondence for the war in Afghanistan, I mean like maybe there has to be somewhat a way to control that or maybe, I don’t know, it just makes me question a little bit WikiLeaks and [indiscernible] (86:03) very important [indiscernible] (86:04) to have. It’s a very important side but it’s like putting light on how disruptive it can become. It’s almost an anarchy device kind of – anarchy, sorry.

Molly Wood Yeah. I mean I think the question is really, well, it sort of feels like dogma is bad on either side, right. On the military side, they are too secretive. There is no question that the dogma of secrecy at all costs is dangerous. But openness at all costs may be equally dangerous. And I think that’s what we are finding out. It’s not – is it worth it? Should there be some secrets that save peoples’ lives for God’s sake and is it worth it to protect those?

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Nilay Patel I don’t want to get too crazy and philosophical here but I have noticed recently that sort of the culture of the internet, if you will, or the – and the narrative that, sort of the right-wing media in particular, spins is that authority is not to be trusted and that systems and government has failed, right, and that sort of general anarchy like Patrick was saying, is sort of the way to go, right. Government can’t be trusted because it doesn’t function. And authority can’t be trusted because it lies to you. And it’s kind of like WikiLeaks is the – it is absolutely I think a paragon of this attitude where they say, well, you can trust us. But we don’t know – we don’t have authority. We are anti-authority. And by being anti-authority that’s how we gain your trust.

So the fact of the matter is that WikiLeaks just like our government and our military and every other institution is run by people and people have biases and opinions and they will selectively try to make you agree with them and persuade you. And that’s really the problem with WikiLeaks is that they release information in a way that suits them. They don’t release all the information [indiscernible] not everybody of the side (87:48). And so – I mean that’s my issue with WikiLeaks in general is that they have put themselves in this position of saying the government isn’t to be trusted, they are not telling you everything. But at the same time, they very actively don’t tell you everything.

Molly Wood You should be very…

Nilay Patel [Indiscernible] (88:02)

Molly Wood In life and in politics and on the Internet, you should be very suspicious of anyone who says, I’m right, I am the one who is right, because that is almost never true.

Tom Merritt Unless it’s coming from me or Molly.

Molly Wood Yeah, mainly if it’s me.

Patrick Beja Damn it, you stole my joke.

Molly Wood But you know, I mean, it’s just a – it’s just a very good lesson, it’s that WikiLeaks is no less or true believer than anybody else. They think that what they are doing is the only right way to go and they will not be persuaded by logic or safety concerns or anything. And anytime I think that your position is that extreme, you’re just going to cause trouble.

Nilay Patel Right. And the thing, particularly with government and maybe this is going to sound crazy coming from me, but…

Tom Merritt Well, that’s not going to sound crazy because we lost your audio suddenly…

Molly Wood It was good – it was so crazy.

Tom Merritt It is too crazy, the government wouldn’t allow it out.

Molly Wood You self-muted.

Nilay Patel No, no, so particularly in the case of government and I think this is going to sound odd from me, because I’m not some crazy supporter of institutionalized government, but government in America you can get rid-off, right, if the government does something wrong, the system is designed so that you can vote the bastards out, right. You don’t get to vote out WikiLeaks, like you don’t, you know, they continue to be there and if they do something wrong, they’re still there, and they don’t go away. And so – it’s odd to me when I really see private institutions come down and really demand that we take down the government in some way, the way the WikiLeaks does, because there is a check for the people on the government, there’s not a check in WikiLeaks. And I think that’s sort of an interesting dynamic that they’ve – they’ve really used their advantage by saying we are the one who – we are the ones who are right, and your government is not to be trusted.

Tom Merritt Well, you point out an interesting fact here that WikiLeaks is taking advantage of, which is the infinite copyability of the internet, right, where, if it was just a marketplace of ideas and people got to shout them forth, some voices would be heard more than others and you’d be able to discern which one you want, but on the Internet when you are talking about leaks, it takes one posting. And so they have so much more power than the government in that way, which has to fight to stay elected and that’s why you see so much crap in the rhetoric, it’s so much ridiculous, slippery slopes and all those thing to try to trick people into voting for them, whereas all WikiLeaks has to do to affect their agenda is post once. And then it is infinitely copyable from then on.

Nilay Patel And because they are really good at what they do, the narrative that they provide about the information of their leak is generally the dominant narrative until it’s corrected, but nobody cares about corrections, right.

Molly Wood Right.

Nilay Patel So to bring this back to sort of two subjects that I’m more familiar with, and feel more comfortable talking about is an example of this phenomenon, one is for example the iPhone 4 antenna, where everybody [ph] who sees [indiscernible] (90:55) iPhone 4 [ph] to this day (90:56) is says, oh!, you drop calls when you hold it wrong, and the answer is no, right, because you don’t drop calls when you hold it wrong, you loose some signal and that might – you know, it’s like there’s this whole other explanation now, but [ph] the median (91:09) narrative has been you drop calls when you hold it wrong, and so that’s out there, it’s forever, and Apple can’t do anything to fix it.

Another one from just this week was Apple used some images in the patent application with third-party application, but in the iPhone app they used screenshot, [ph] their patent apps (91:25), and the narrative immediately was Apple is trying to patent iPhone apps to other developers who have submitted to the app store and it’s like, we’ll know that absolutely not true and I can – I’ll explain it to you but you know, it took me a day to put up that explanation and then [ph] it was, oh, [indiscernible] writing in (91:44) and I was like, I know this doesn’t matter but I want the right information to be out there. And it’s like those scenarios take hold so quickly and especially because information like you’re saying can be repeated so often and so quickly, as soon as it’s out there, it’s almost as though they have an exponential amount, more power over the [ph] median (92:03) than the government. Because the government [indiscernible] (92:05) and quite frankly, be boring, right? They’re going to be like, well, that isn’t actually the case. We’re not murdering civilians. Here is this exercise and blah blah blah, and nobody cares.

Molly Wood Well, the government’s going to say it’s not as black and white as you have portrayed it, WikiLeaks, it’s more nuanced and it’s more complicated and no one likes to listen to that.

Tom Merritt And the WikiLeaks side of the argument is, if you want to be able to make a good judgment on government, and find out who the bastards are who you want to throw out, you need all the information, they’re not going to give it to you, we will. We will pass it along unfiltered. They don’t.

Molly Wood Which also doesn’t necessarily help.

Tom Merritt They do filter it. But I think there is a good purpose behind something like WikiLeaks to say, hey, we want to get information out there that you need to know to understand how things work in your country. But it has to be done responsibly, and I think that’s the conversation we’re having here is, is WikiLeaks responsible and should we trust them.

[Multiple Speakers] (92:58)

Patrick Beja Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Nilay Patel Just sort of – quick thing. What you’re saying is, WikiLeaks needs to be more responsible. So they need to take in all of this information they’re getting, filter it out, and explain what the government is doing. That role is the role of the press.

Tom Merritt Well, and they did that, that’s what’s interesting is they passed that along to three news outlets, Der Spiegel, The Guardian, right? And The New York Times, to do that for them. Then they said, but we also want you to have the source information, we want you to have the source material so you can double-check the press.

Patrick Beja Yeah, this is not – the WikiLeaks is not supposed to be the press. WikiLeaks serves a different purpose. It’s a place to post information anonymously, whatever that information may be. And what we’re seeing now, I believe, what we’re realizing – it’s sort of the wake up call – we’re realizing that maybe this sort of no-accountability possibility that we have now with the Internet, with I would say WikiLeaks but other venues like maybe 4chan even, which – no one can touch, and it’s sort of scary almost.

Is that too much non-accountability? And we obviously can’t do anything about it at this point I don’t think, because if you strike down WikiLeaks, for example, something else will come up somewhere else. But it is sort of awe-inspiring and a little bit too much, maybe.

And that’s what we’re realizing now. It’s not the fact that WikiLeaks should edit or shouldn’t edit the information they’re putting out. It’s the fact that you can put out this information with – and once it’s out of the bag, it’s finished. That’s the problem. And is it really a big problem is the question we should answer.

Nilay Patel I think that’s the issue, right? So every single day, at Engadget, when we get tips on new products or services or – people send us in fake spy shots, all this stuff, right? And our readers rely on us to filter out the wheat from the chaff. And sometimes we’re right and sometimes we’re wrong, sometimes we miss things. But we have a good record and our credibility is based on that record and we work very hard to maintain it.

And I think what WikiLeaks does is they don’t filter it. And the way that they do filter it is with these selective edits and these selective releases, and there’s sort of aura of anti-authority rebellion. And as soon as something is on WikiLeaks, with all of that sort of branding and web – I don’t want to call it branding – but that reputation behind it, it gains some status.

And so this goal of – you can just submit information for the comments to decide if it’s true or valid or important goes away as soon as WikiLeaks starts performing editorial functions, like editing video and releasing it to news outlets. Like saying, here is what we think is important. Like saying, the government isn’t telling you the whole truth. Because as soon as they start performing that editorial function, everything else on their site becomes part of it. I think that’s the danger.

If WikiLeaks was just a repository and you could go to it and there was some information on there, you could take away and other people could form narratives on it, well, that will be different. But they are very much performing editorial as well.

Tom Merritt Well, let’s finish up with a story that is sort of the opposite, if someone who wanted to keep something secret in order to save society that is 45 year old Terry Childs, former sys admin for the City of San Francisco, who received his sentencing this weekend, actually on Friday. Four years in prison for refusing to handover administrative passwords to the City’s FiberWAN network back in July 2008. Judge convicted Childs in April of violating state hacking laws. Childs says that his bosses were incompetent and he would only give the passwords to the Mayor after he had explained why his bosses were incompetent and couldn’t be trusted with the system. But he has finally received his sentence and he’ll spend 4 years in jail for defending his principles very assiduously.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Tom Merritt This is a story that Molly and I were following back at Buzz Out Loud when we were on there together, and it just – there is something entertaining about a guy who – whatever you think the facts of the case are, said yeah, I will go to jail.

Molly Wood Right.

Tom Merritt I don’t think my bosses know what they are doing, I think they are endangering the city, and I will only give this password to the Mayor.

Molly Wood Talk about an unswerving belief in your own rightness, this guy is like a poster boy for that particular behavior. And I cannot…

Nilay Patel I think there is.

Molly Wood I mean four years in jail, that’s some serious business.

Patrick Beja It’s ridiculous. I think there is also a sort of sense of satisfaction for every single one of us, who has been in that situation where you know that the guy who’s managing stuff is incompetent and shouldn’t be trusted with the information you have and you wanted to not give to him, or not make him able to manage whatever he should be managing and he is actually going and doing it and going to jail for this. I think he should – we should open a fund for this guy and just make him rich after he comes out.

Molly Wood I don’t know, he sounds like kind of a jerk. Let’s not go that far.

Tom Merritt Well…

Nilay Patel I like him.

Molly Wood I guess that’s the unswerving belief…

Patrick Beja [indiscernible] (98:10) Internet.

Molly Wood Yeah, maybe he could have his own day.

Tom Merritt We should point out that during the 12 days that he would not return over the administrative passwords, the network ran fine, it never went down, nothing bad ever happened but the prosecutors characterized him as power hungry and sort of a control freak.

Molly Wood Yeah.

Tom Merritt You think?

Molly Wood You think? But I do…

Tom Merritt So he is [indiscernible] (98:28).

Molly Wood I think the four years is – that’s a pretty astonishingly harsh sentence, I got to say. I think he really pissed them off is what happened there.

Nilay Patel Yeah I have to imagine this trial was just amazing.

Molly Wood It was hilarious. We could not get enough of this story on Buzz Out Loud. I mean we just – we were like I know it’s local but people, this is amazing. I demand to see the Mayor, he has to come to my jail cell, like he is having [indiscernible] (98:53)…

Tom Merritt I will not give the password to anyone else. But you know what the Mayor came to his jail cell. Because he had him by the balls, they couldn’t do anything without him.

Patrick Beja What if there was some [indiscernible] (99:05) issue.

Molly Wood And that’s why they are making an example of him right now.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Patrick Beja What if the network was actually in danger because of these incompetent people? I mean I am sure this isn’t the case, but what if he was actually fighting for something right? Maybe, no?

Tom Merritt Well, he is willing to risk it, in case he is…

Molly Wood Yeah?

Tom Merritt Yeah, because there is – I mean how do you prove that in court?

Molly Wood Right.

Tom Merritt I mean that’s a difficult one.

Nilay Patel He was probably saying, I won’t argue anymore because you are incompetent.

Molly Wood Yeah, every villain is the hero of his own story.

Nilay Patel Exactly.

Tom Merritt And you are incompetent, and you are incompetent.

Molly Wood You are.

Tom Merritt All right. Well, you all thank you very much for a very enjoyable discussion today on TWiT. This is fantastic. I know we have good news to work with, but you guys were great. Thank you so much.

Molly Wood Thanks for having me – us.

Nilay Patel Thank you.

Molly Wood For my part, I am thrilled.

Tom Merritt Nilay Patel, Managing Editor of Engadget, do you – we could follow you on Twitter, your Twitter name is reckless, correct?

Nilay Patel It is.

Tom Merritt Why is it reckless?

Nilay Patel I am calming down now.

Patrick Beja Your next Twitter is going to be calming down?

Tom Merritt Anything else you want to plug?

Nilay Patel No, that’s it. Just Engadget. I think we are going to have the big week this week so [indiscernible] (100:17).

Tom Merritt Patrick Beja is host of Le rendez-vous Tech. You can find many of his works at you can follow him on Twitter at notpatrick, anything else going on you want to tell us about?

Patrick Beja I guess if you like podcast and you speak French or you’re learning French you could go to [ph] (100:37) where we have a number of excellent podcasts to entertain you.

Tom Merritt Excellent or excellente.

Molly Wood If you will.

Tom Merritt Maybe. Molly Wood at, Executive Editor of, host of Buzz Out Loud, and the Buzz Report. Thank you very much this has been fantastic.

Molly Wood This has been really fun.

Tom Merritt It’s good to be back in the saddle with you again.

Molly Wood I know I missed you.

Tom Merritt I want to be your Buzz Out Loud again…

Molly Wood Okay.

Tom Merritt And I want you on Tech News today.

Molly Wood Alright, we are – we were thinking of planning a big cross-over event. All our NCIS and NCIS: Los Angeles.

Tom Merritt Yeah, or like when Allison Scagliotti was on Eureka.

Molly Wood Yeah that type. When that happened.

Tom Merritt [ph] Or Dr. Love Bug (101:15) from Fantasy Island.

Molly Wood We think – we’ve got one day where Thomas’ on Buzz Out Loud and then I’m on TNT and we just have a big blow out cross-over event. It’s going to be great.

Nilay Patel But you realize in these cross-over events, you have to have sort of a continuous narrative, so you have to build a story.

Molly Wood True. Okay we’ll get to work on that. Next Friday or something, we’ll figure out.

Tom Merritt Yeah. That’s not a problem with me. Leo Laporte will be back in the saddle or rather on the ball once again next week. Thanks to him for letting me fill in, this was really fun and you can find us at and watch us live every Sunday at 3 PM Pacific, 6 PM Eastern That does it for us. In that can is another TWiT.

Tom Merritt That’s it?

Molly Wood That’s it. We made it.

Nilay Patel That was an interesting twist, that can is in the TWiT.

Tom Merritt In that can.

Molly Wood That was a good show, I need a cigarette.

Tom Merritt That was needy.

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