TWiT 261/Transcript

From The Official TWiT Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Episode 261


This transcript is provided by our friends at Pods in Print

Introduction Netcasts you love. From people you trust. This is TWiT.

Leo Laporte Audio bandwidth for this WEEK in TECH is provided by Winamp. Subscribe to TWiT and all your favorite podcasts with the ultimate media player, download it for free at Video bandwidth for TWiT is provided by Cachefly at

This is TWiT, this WEEK in TECH, Episode 261, recorded August 15, 2010, Abandon All HPOA.

This WEEK in TECH is brought to you by GoToMeeting, improve your calls and keep everyone on the same page when you share your screen with GoToMeeting. For your free 30-day trial visit

And by Ford, and the new Ford Fiesta with an EPA estimated 40 miles per gallon on highway. No other compact car is more fuel efficient. And fuel economy is just for starters. The 2011 Ford Fiesta, we invite you to drive one this week at a Ford dealer near you.

And by the Ecomagination Challenge from GE. GE and its partners are awarding $200 million to ideas that help build the next generation power grid for the 21st Century. For more information and to submit your ideas and innovations go to and don’t forget to mention TWiT.

It’s time for TWiT, this week in TWiT. What is technology? And joining us we’re so glad to have a live all-in studio cast today, starting with the star of this WEEK in GOOGLE, the author of What Would Google Do? and a Professor of Journalism at the City University of New York, you know by now, I’m talking about Jeff Jarvis at

Jeff Jarvis Hey! Happy to finally be in TWiT [indiscernible] (2:09). It’s wonderful, it’s great.

Leo Laporte It’s so nice to have you. It’s beautiful and you’re out here for a conference, or…?

Jeff Jarvis The pii2010 Conference in Seattle for privacy and stuff.

Leo Laporte Post-Intelligencer?

Jeff Jarvis Nope. Personally Identifiable Information is the [ph] journal (2:20).

Leo Laporte Oh I like it, I like it. And you are of course writing a book on Public Parts, so that’s appropriate…

Jeff Jarvis Yes.

Leo Laporte …for you. And one of his most public achievements is his son, Jake Jarvis, who’s also in studio with us. In fact this is your last appearance before you enter college.

Jake Jarvis Right, yeah.

Leo Laporte How exciting!

Jake Jarvis I know.

Leo Laporte Where you are going? Could you – I don’t know if you want to reveal it or not. I mean is Jake as public as you are Jeff?

Jeff Jarvis No one’s as public as I am, but he has to bear with me.

Jake Jarvis University of Rochester.

Leo Laporte Congratulations!

Jake Jarvis Thank you.

Leo Laporte How exciting! When do you matriculate?

Jake Jarvis 25th we go up there and classes start about a week later.

Leo Laporte How exciting! Have fun! Are you nervous or you…?

Jake Jarvis A little bit. Ready though.

Leo Laporte Yeah. We dropped my daughter off for freshman year, it’s already started on Saturday, and we’re balling our eyes out.

Jeff Jarvis You heard from her?

Leo Laporte Once, one brief happy email. I know she’s happy.

Denise Howell Still unpacking.

Leo Laporte That’s all I care about. Well she wouldn’t let us unpack for her, so yeah you’re probably right. She probably hasn’t unpacked. That’s Denise Howell, who’s also a mom and her son is only 6.5. So you got a few years left.

Denise Howell Yeah. Goes by faster, doesn’t it?

Leo Laporte It does, faster than you can even imagine.

Jeff Jarvis Save up now.

Leo Laporte Denise is an attorney. She is our host at – of this WEEK in LAW, a great show on the Google network. If only. On the TWiT network which [indiscernible] Friday (3:37).

Jeff Jarvis Google [indiscernible] (3:38).

Leo Laporte Yeah, I know, I’m not, I’m not for sale. They’re evil; we are talking about that in a second. Denise also is a blogger at and writes the logarithms blog for ZDNet. Nice to see you

Denise Howell Great to be here.

Leo Laporte And you’re here for family?

Denise Howell Yeah, for family, just taking the week off.

Leo Laporte And to see the animals, that’s at Safari West.

Denise Howell Yes, Safari West just up the road.

Leo Laporte That’s really fun. We brought the kids there every year, it was so much fun, they have like wild animals.

Denise Howell It’s great! The wild animal park.

Leo Laporte Yeah. Did you know there was a wild animal park in Petaluma?

Jeff Jarvis No.

Leo Laporte It’s just chickens and cows, but it’s really great. It’s really great. So thanks to everybody for being in studio with us. We’ve quite a large in-studio audience of people from all over the country and the world visiting and of course everybody at home who’s watching at, we watch the chat room as the show goes by and if you have thoughts or questions, you’re always welcome to contribute them, I’ll be glad to ignore them at

This is Episode 261, so our stories are online at and I guess we have to talk about really the biggest story of the week. There’s actually now some additional stuff around it. Oracle suing Google, Google does a deal with Verizon, there was a great tweet, a guy named I think Phil Nash, posted a tweet, which I re-tweeted and I think I’m getting credit for, and I really shouldn’t get credit for it, because it wasn’t my idea but I did re-tweet him, and unfortunately the way re-tweeting seems to work on Twitter, sometimes you get credit for stuffs that you post even though you’re just re-tweeting.

Jeff Jarvis You used the provenance.

Leo Laporte The provenance got – so I want to make, I want to say his name and I’m going to read his tweet, which I really like if I could find it here, of course it has been re-tweeted a bunch or so.

Welcome to the new decade, said Phil Nash, Java is a restricted platform; Google is evil, Apple is a monopoly, and Microsoft are the underdogs.

In fact it is true, isn’t it?

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte We were thinking on this WEEK in GOOGLE when we talked about the Google-Verizon deal, that maybe Bing was the place to go to hide from Google. So let’s just start with this Google-Verizon. First of all, maybe I should ask Denise, Google said, this isn’t an agreement; this is just a proposal for legislation, what’s the story?

Denise Howell Right and I think it’s even more removed than that. It’s sort of…

Leo Laporte It’s not an operating agreement, it’s not something they’ve agreed to do together.

Denise Howell No, no, no. They got together and they decided – and kudos to Google for actually taking a stand on an issue and taking it to Washington, which is something that people complain about a lot that they are a technology companies that are involved in issues that touch all of our lives everyday and their users certainly care a lot about these issues, but sometimes they just let those issues go by and don’t do any lobbying. So I think if this is kind of like a lobbying effort, they got together, they put together a policy statement and they took it to Washington, it’s a little bit like writing a letter to your Congressman.

Jeff Jarvis Well it’s also stepping into a policy vacuum I think.

Denise Howell Yes.

Jeff Jarvis Which is what Susan Crawford has said in her blog in a guest post I think for GigaOM, that the SEC should grow up here and step into this, and the problem is that they haven’t, and that’s why Google and Verizon kind of stepped out and say no rule should look like this.

Denise Howell Yes.

Jeff Jarvis The sad part is, why the hell Google made this deal? I still – just baffles me.

Leo Laporte Well Google was one of those companies that says, we’ll never work with Verizon, we don’t believe in limiting your internet access. We don’t believe that companies like Verizon who want to do things – well remember the WIRED Magazine article where AT&T went to Apple saying, could you please limit those YouTube videos to 10 second because it’s killing our network. You would think Google will be the first one to say that’s a bad idea.

Jeff Jarvis Google who says customer first in nothing then this is thinking like us. What we want and Google should want because it is in line with our interest is a hugely open free internet wherever you get it and to limit that, I wrote a post on BuzzMachine about internet-schmiternet and we’ve the internet now and then the schmiternet is where everything good’s going to happen. And that’s going to cost more money, and that’s going to be limited, and that’s going to be censored by phone companies, and that’s no good and that’s why everyone is so distressed that Google would go along with this.

Jake Jarvis Well the Nexus was there in terms of open this and then they got rid of it because of the phone companies. So they were going there and then they suddenly bit – started backpedaling.

Leo Laporte 2006, this is Google’s public service announcement.


Leo Laporte Then it says the new internet. If AT&T and Verizon have their way – this is an ad that Google made ‘save the internet, support net neutrality’.

Jeff Jarvis Well, I think isn’t Jake right that this is about Android, this is about phones? Google’s now in the phone business.

Leo Laporte Is it greed?

Jake Jarvis That’s what I was thinking, what’s in it for them?

Leo Laporte What’s in it for them? Well, Google says, and you know we will get – I apologize to all my friends at Google including [ph] Krista Bona (09:29) who did send us an email, said I’d like to come on and talk.

Jeff Jarvis Well we did ask – we did ask Google public relations to come on this WEEK in…

Leo Laporte And we will get somebody on this WEEK in GOOGLE on Wednesday and maybe it will be [ph] Krista Bona (09:37) so I will give Google a chance to say. But they in their blog this week, they responded to all the criticism saying; well it’s the best we could do. It’s the best we could get. We had to get something, so we said, okay we’ll protect the landline Internet with net neutrality and that’s in fact what this agreement says, okay, landlines no problem, net neutrality rules, but if you are wireless, you can do whatever you want because it’s so much harder on wireless to do good Internet. So, is this true? Is this the all that Google could get? Did they get a consensus of [indiscernible] (10:07)?

Jeff Jarvis Why did Google put themselves in the position that they think it’s up to them, they are negotiators. When China came along they said, no, no, no we are not a country, we don’t really want to be in this position and now they set themselves up to negotiate with Verizon and not on our interest. That’s…

Leo Laporte So, it doesn’t have any impact of law, it’s not an operating agreement, it’s not a business agreement with Verizon, it’s just two companies who are hereditary enemies getting together and saying to Congress this is what you should do, but doesn’t that have a lot of weight especially if it’s Google – two enemies saying this?

Denise Howell It’s very educational I think for the people in Washington. In a lot of instances, this is going to be their talking points, their bullets on how all this works.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s scary.

Denise Howell Yeah, that is a little bit scary.

Leo Laporte Their reaction is going to be what any – ignorant normal person would say, oye, it’s Google and Verizon, it must be the way it should be.

Denise Howell Right.

Jeff Jarvis Oye.

Leo Laporte Oye.

Denise Howell Right and you know I mean there needs to be some definition and texture around what the Internet becomes next because the world where we all headed [indiscernible] (11:10) and the landline has gone away.

Leo Laporte Right.

Denise Howell And…

Leo Laporte The Internet is wireless in many – for many of us.

Jeff Jarvis That will be entirely wireless including Google itself fought for white spaces to become WiFi on steroids and that would give us what we really need which is competition. For Google to say that there is competition in wireless is just ridiculous, we don’t have competition and they were stuck with 2.2 bad choices.

Leo Laporte Right. So, what should we, as consumers, what should we fight for at this point? Should we say, I mean obviously the answer to this is simple, you just write to your member of Congress and say well, that’s Google and Verizon but we don’t agree as users of the Internet – the Internet should – I always – I hate the phrase net neutrality, I think that confuses people. I would say anti-discrimination because that’s really what we are saying is that no – that a bit is a bit, no bit on the Internet should be treated differently than other bit.

Jeff Jarvis Open competitive capitalistic Internet.

Leo Laporte I see, I like that because Congress likes that open capitalistic competitors.

Jeff Jarvis That’s what we’re talking about here.

Leo Laporte So you’re saying a free market on the Internet?

Jeff Jarvis Yes, a free market Internet, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte See, that’s good. Congress likes free market. That’s a safe thing to say.

Jeff Jarvis I think we need you to organize the Constitutional Convention of the Internet.

Leo Laporte This is the irony, that PSA that I ran – that Public Service Announcement was first I called…

Jeff Jarvis That’s right, yeah.

Leo Laporte …and Google got behind it and the whole idea of was to fight these anti-open initiatives. People like Verizon and Comcast who were saying well, the Internet is okay as long as you don’t use Skype or BitTorrent on it. You better not try that. I really – so Jake are you saying that it’s greed basically that now that they are effectively in bed with Verizon over Android phones and every other cell phone company that they now their interest coincide with the wireless companies’ interests?

Jake Jarvis I guess, it’s just I don’t understand why they feel the need to step in and be the big bully about this. I don’t think the backfires worth it for them.

Leo Laporte Well, they’re certainly getting a lot of backlash.

Jake Jarvis Right.

Denise Howell Right.

Leo Laporte That’s clear. Do you think they underestimated, Jeff, what the response would do, or do they even care?

Jeff Jarvis Well, that [ph] does scare (13:27) me if they don’t care.

Leo Laporte Do they need to care? Why do they need to care?

Jeff Jarvis They cared in the past. Look at it this way – we give a lot of crap to Facebook but Facebook is more responsive to…

Leo Laporte Ironically.

Jeff Jarvis [indiscernible] (13:39) people have, exactly, than Google thinks they need to be. I just don’t understand what they get out of it. I’m flummoxed. I’m absolutely flummoxed, I don’t know where to go.

Leo Laporte This was – Eugene and I tried to understand it as well on this WEEK in GOOGLE and that was the – Why Google Why should have been the title for that show.

Jeff Jarvis [ph] That’s why (13:59) David Weinberger wrote a wonderful post talking about how he is a Google fanboy, he loves everything Google has, he uses every product and we just don’t understand. And the response that Google gave didn’t help. No, at all.

Leo Laporte No, it sounded like they were – what was the phrase they used in WIRED Magazine?

Jeff Jarvis It was like – argument is like German in-laws. I have learned how to argue with Germans which is they just repeat themselves and say it over and over and over again until you finally say yes. And that’s what it was. It was just repeating the same points with more space but it really did…

Leo Laporte WIRED called them carrier-humping net neutrality surrender monkeys. I think that kind of says it all, doesn’t it?

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte All right.

Jeff Jarvis I had – Jake and I had breakfast with Om Malik this weekend…

Leo Laporte What did Om think?

Jeff Jarvis Om is making arguments that Google’s kind of on the way down and I hear that all the time, [indiscernible] (14:50) Jarvis.

Leo Laporte Wait a minute, he says Google’s on the way down?

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, and people trying to say to me that oh yeah your book, What Would Google Do, ha-ha-ha. I still believe in Google, I am with Weinberger on this. I still think that they are the smartest company around. I just believe they get it.

Jake Jarvis Well he was talking about how – he’s was talking on his phone and how he uses apps to go directly to Yelp and everything instead of Googling like restaurant reviews.

Leo Laporte Right. So in that sense searches – I would say – I would agree search is on the way.

Jeff Jarvis Right, yes.

Leo Laporte Not way down but it’s not the beyond and there is other ways of getting stuff. I think the app – to me the app ecosystem is actually a negative.

Jeff Jarvis I think so.

Leo Laporte And when we talk about this Jeff on this weekend, Google, it’s a Virginia Heffernan phrase in The New York Times, it’s the suburbs of the Internet, where you go, it’s safe, it’s protected, people use iPhones like apps because they want that kind of perfect experience but it’s not the real Internet.

Jeff Jarvis Yes, I almost saying – as I remember Jake that it wasn’t just search, it was also that ad model then starts to go away when you have to close up, the more attention it grabs.

Leo Laporte Right, yes Yelp’s got – and Yelp and Facebook because they have location information tied with social graph…

Jeff Jarvis Right.

Leo Laporte That’s more valuable really than this – the blind search index although it’s nice to have the search index too. One of my experiences is I’ve started doing trying checks-ins on Yelp, I was using Four – I still use Foursquare. Yelp has Foursquare style check-ins but Yelp doesn’t have a huge database of businesses, that’s where the search piece is kind of missing, right? And I imagine that they are using something like Google’s database of businesses. So you do need search in conjunction with all this stuff?

Jake Jarvis People aren’t going into Google; I think that’s what you’re trying to say.

Jeff Jarvis No.

Leo Laporte They are not. Denise, are you going into Google less?

Denise Howell I am not going less but I think maybe my son is.

Leo Laporte Tyler uses Google?

Denise Howell What word? Yes, not unfettered. But I guess what I’m getting at is all of this is scaring me as a parent, that the Internet that he’s growing up with looks far different than the one that I knew.

Leo Laporte This is how hip you are because a normal parent would say oh, this is much safer, there is no porn, there is no Steve Jobs, our phones have no smut…

Jeff Jarvis Thank you, Steve Jobs

Denise Howell Yes.

Leo Laporte And so that’s what it – that’s what I love, the parent would say, but what you’re saying is I want an open Internet for my child.

Denise Howell I don’t know if I am saying that actually but thank you for crediting me with that degree of hipness, you know we just sent him off in a car with his iPad which I am perfectly happy to let him play around on it. Well, even though you know he could go to Safari and…

Leo Laporte You have to work hard to get porn on the iPad.

Denise Howell Exactly.

Leo Laporte Trust me I have done it. I mean only for research.

Denise Howell Right. So it’s good babysitting for 3.5 hours.

Leo Laporte So why would – but why do you think that it’s bad for Tyler if Google makes a deal with Verizon?

Denise Howell Well, I don’t want him to grow up in a world where he lives only on apps and data is being harvested from him right and left and maybe he doesn’t know it and he doesn’t know how to deal with that sort of…

Leo Laporte How soon would you let him have a Facebook page?

Denise Howell Well, I certainly would abide by the company’s terms of service and I am not sure what the young…

Leo Laporte Speaking as attorney, I would say 13 she says.

Jeff Jarvis High school…

Leo Laporte That’s 13. It’s 13 because…

Denise Howell I guess he wanted to do it when he was 13, I’d be behind that.

Leo Laporte I let my kids do it younger. Jake, how old are you when you got on the…

Jake Jarvis Like I got on as soon as I could…

Leo Laporte Yes.

Jake Jarvis I opened it up. So I was…

Leo Laporte You’re younger, aren’t you?

Jeff Jarvis Grandpa Jake you know he’s been around.

Jake Jarvis Right from the freshman year.

Leo Laporte Okay, so you were at the right age but if you could have gotten earlier.

Jake Jarvis Oh, yes.

Leo Laporte And Jake is a developed – you developed stuff for Facebook.

Jake Jarvis Yes.

Leo Laporte You’ve worked with FBML and all that stuff.

Jake Jarvis Yes. But MySpace was the big thing back then…

Leo Laporte Right.

Jake Jarvis And Zynga, and everyone was on that. So I’m sure it would’ve been the same thing with Facebook.

Leo Laporte Right, right, right.

Jeff Jarvis But I don’t think Google is going down; let me get that on the record. I think that this is a warning shot to Google that says “watch out”.

Leo Laporte Warning shot from its users.

Jeff Jarvis We’ve – you want to know evil. We just defined evil. We did it, we did it. We told you what evil is. Now you, you know we are like God here. We’ll forgive you – we will forgive you.

Leo Laporte You’re saying we, the consumer, as your user?

Jeff Jarvis We the consumers, we have grace and we will forgive you Google, but you better understand the errors of your ways here. That’s my view. But then is that just us geeky nuts and nobody else cares?

Leo Laporte Yes. Well, I wonder and I think probably that’s the calculus that Google and Verizon have made. Certainly the calculus that Comcast, Verizon, AT&T are always making. We can shut down this bit to our guys because that just a small fraction.

Jeff Jarvis So geeks never liked Microsoft until Scoble made them cuddly, and so it never really hurt them.

Leo Laporte And he did.

Jeff Jarvis Is that the sense?

Leo Laporte Didn’t it? Maybe he didn’t. I don’t know, I guess you are right, it didn’t. You are absolutely right, it didn’t hurt Microsoft.

Jeff Jarvis So would it hurt Google if geeks don’t like them anymore?

Denise Howell I think so because geeks don’t have to like a company for it to be successful in the enterprise which Microsoft has always traditionally been…

Leo Laporte And geeks are never going to use Bing.

Jake Jarvis But Google is made of geeks, that’s all the processors [indiscernible] (19:50).

Leo Laporte It’s made of geeks.

Jake Jarvis [Ph] They are all such bad (19:52) UI because it’s geeks making them.

Denise Howell Sony.

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (19:55)

Leo Laporte [Indiscernible] (19:57) made of geeks. We really – I almost feel like – on this Week in Google we talked this subject out. We had to bring it up on this Week in Tech because we hadn’t talked about it. It happened between the last show and this show. But I think you and I and everybody else are having the same reaction which is why Google why, shaking our heads, and I don’t know – we are angry at Google but we still love Google, don’t we? We are not – nobody is willing to give up on Google yet.

Jake Jarvis Absolutely agree with that.

Jeff Jarvis No reason to yet.

Denise Howell No.

Jake Jarvis No.

Leo Laporte No reason to yet?

Jeff Jarvis Hasn’t changed today how Google operates…

Leo Laporte I wonder how much dissent inside Google there’s overall…

Denise Howell That’s what I was going to say. If the Chris DiBonas of the world start to rear up and say I am sorry this is not working for me anymore, then Google’s got a problem.

Leo Laporte That’s a good point.

Jeff Jarvis I was thinking we probably should have had Kevin Marks on last week since he is out of Google but has Google Friends.

Leo Laporte Ex Google, yes.

Jeff Jarvis He might have…

Leo Laporte I will contact Kevin and Chris for this Week in Google on Wednesday. We should get them on. I would be very curious what they have to say about this. It was – it felt like a week where we lost our innocence a little bit about Google.

Jeff Jarvis I’m going there tomorrow.

Leo Laporte Oh yes!

Jeff Jarvis Jake and I are going on a tour of the Promised Land and then I’m having lunch with Google News folks…

Leo Laporte Fun.

Jeff Jarvis And then a couple of the [indiscernible] (21:23).

Leo Laporte I hope you’ll ask around.

Jeff Jarvis I’ll be with [indiscernible] (21:26) people, so – we will try to get someone on that show …

Leo Laporte [Ph] O’Carran (21:29) yes.

Jeff Jarvis [Ph] O’Carran (21:29) yes, and see what he has to say?

Leo Laporte Let me ask – I think this is something – this is true of Microsoft although nobody ever really wanted to admit but all of these big companies that have tens of thousands of employees, there is a huge diversity of opinion within the company. There’s no unified point of view, and I think it’s pretty clear at least in the China situation, Eric Schmidt had one point of view and Larry and Sergey the founders had another point of view and Eric won briefly, the founders eventually won. I don’t know if there’s that same of division up at the top. This time there might be.

Jeff Jarvis What I wonder is whether the employees were talking about this on Buzz.

Leo Laporte I didn’t see anything. I follow Buzz carefully, as you know, I am the only one.

Denise Howell Well they tried hard to couch this speaking with the PR people as something that was not far down on the evil spectrum at all and in fact something that is good and healthy for...

Jeff Jarvis But as Leo said, it was this kind of – well, this is the best we could get. This is compromise. I don’t know.

Denise Howell Devil’s in the details…

Leo Laporte Am I being a drama queen about all this? Lenon2010 says you did the same thing with Facebook, all the hyperbole and the drama. Am I being a drama queen? Is this not a big deal? I mean, I’m willing, you can tell me the truth.

Denise Howell I think we learned that it certainly gets a lot of attention when a couple of Fortune 500 or 100 companies get together and make a policy statement like this even though it has no force of law, it’s going to…

Leo Laporte It’s scary to me.

Denise Howell Be paid attention to, yes, and it could be influential and sway people’s opinions and Washington then it gets…

Jeff Jarvis A separate Internet is a big deal.

Leo Laporte It’s a bad thing.

Jeff Jarvis Period.

Leo Laporte And that’s what they are saying. Actually 2 or 3 tiered Internet, it’s not even just the 2 tiered Internet, you have the open Internet, the wireless Internet which is very close and then you have this kind of pay-per-view Internet.

Jeff Jarvis It’s the inception Internet.

Leo Laporte Inception? Oh it’s like 3 dreams?

Jeff Jarvis Yes. Jake [Indiscernible] (23:20).

Leo Laporte Let me give you the kick. You ready for your kick. We’re going to take a break, come back with more – we’ve got a great cast of characters here, Jeff Jarvis from, his son, Jake Jarvis from and Denise Howell, and we have much more to talk about. Google’s being sued. Now Google’s going to be the bad – the good guy and the bad guy, we’ve got an even worse villain in the scene here. Only Larry Alison could be a worse villain in this situation.

Before we do that I want to say hello to the folks at Ford and thank them for bringing us out to the Ford plant. We had so much fun watching those F-150 trucks being built. I hope you saw the specials that we made from the Ford plant, 3 of them and 1 from Maker Faire Detroit which is amazing. It’s all in the TWiT Specials feed.

This episode is brought to you by the all new 2011 Ford Fiesta. Yes, that’s the car I crashed into, by the way, not a scratch. I drove a Flex into a Fiesta you didn’t see that, did you? Yes. Anyway, my fault. They wanted me to tell you that it works fine honestly, and not a scratch on that. The Fiesta is really cool, the new 2011, I drove it the other day. It’s the most fuel efficient compact car on the road today. It’s a gas vehicle, with get this, an EPA estimate of 40 miles per gallon highway. That means it can go from LA to San Francisco in a single tank of – you could have driven up here. How many tanks of gas did you use?

Denise Howell It took me 2, and my Porsche is parked on the curves outside. No, no, it’s a Cayenne, it’s an older one. And I am telling you, my next car which is going to be real, real soon now when they update SYNC. The next time it’s going to a Ford.

Leo Laporte Good for you, Denise. SYNC won me over. I love the SYNC in the Ford. So how does the Fiesta compare, more miles per gallon highway than the Yaris from Toyota. Over the Honda Civic, you’ll save up to $182 a year in gas and of course it’s a great ride. The really – you put your foot on the pedal, it’s very responsive, very energized. That’s because it has that Duratec 1.6 liter I-4 engine in it. A front strut MacPherson suspension. It might even wryly your Porsche there. It’s front sway bar, 22 millimeter sway bar and twist-beam rear suspension give us a very nice ride, very snappy punchy. This thing feels great. You don’t feel like you can get 40 miles a gallon, you put it that way. Best-in-class fuel efficiency, great performance, a good looking interior and exterior design you want to see for yourself. Yeah, it’s really kind of something special.

Try a Ford Fiesta, the 2011s are just out this week, at a Ford dealer near you. Drive one, we think you’ll like it. This week in technology is a Google Show, is an Oracle Show, is a Microsoft Show, is an Apple Show, all those companies, the big names in technology, Facebook, too in this news.

Let’s talk about the Oracle thing. Oracle is suing Google over Android. We’re going to get lawyer, thank god that they settle.

Jeff Jarvis It’s not often you say that. Sorry.

Denise Howell Thank god, there’s a lawyer in the room. Yes, I know. I don’t do that very often.

Leo Laporte That’s what Shakespeare said, first let’s call a lawyer. The folks at…

Denise Howell Typo….

Leo Laporte Typo – wrong. The folks at Sun put up with the fact that Google re-wrote the Java Virtual Machine. They call it Dalvik. And made Android based on Dalvik, the Java Virtual Machine. I guess it is technically a violation of the rules of engagement in – I am not an expert on this, but in Java. But Sun knew it and said nay. Maybe because Sun was a lot smaller than Google. Oracle buys Sun. One of the first things they do is they sue Google saying you’re violating our intellectual property.

This one is going to go on for years, isn’t it?

Denise Howell I think so, yes.

Leo Laporte This is not a quick and easy.

Denise Howell Especially since Google has come out saying what they have said which is not only – this is a baseless lawsuit but it threatens the entire infrastructure of open source licensing.

Leo Laporte Does it really?

Denise Howell That’s what they are contending, yes.

Leo Laporte One of the things that puzzles me is that Android and Dalvik is licensed under the Apache License and Sun is GPL. And they – which seem, on the face it would seem incompatible. I know this is real Arcane and I don’t expect you to respond in a way – tangible way to it. But just…

Denise Howell That’s the thing. [ph] We’re not cotton wear (27:43).

Leo Laporte I know it’s insanely complicated. It also seems a little bit hostile but not that Larry Ellison has ever been anything but aggressive in his business practices.

Denise Howell Right.

Leo Laporte There’s a great article which I have put in our show notes from Tecosystems on this lawsuit. Let me see if I can kind of summarize here. It’s not Oracle versus Google why is the question mark? This is the When Android debuted in 2006 I couldn’t figure out how Google had managed to apply an Apache License to the project, this is as I mentioned is a GPL license project. Google wasn’t using Sun’s Virtual Machine, they built their own, as Danger did before. And of course the Google Android is based kind of on Danger.

Google said it’s a clean room implementation. We’ve seen this before. This is how the whole BIOS wars back in the early days of the PC – the PC clones were based on the IBM PC but they did in a clean room, what does that mean when they say clean room environment?

Denise Howell I think of, were they fab chips when people say that.

Leo Laporte Basically they’re reverse engineering it.

Jeff Jarvis Yes, [Indiscernible] (28:56) from scratch.

Leo Laporte They cannot look at the code, they cannot try to disassemble the code, they have to merely emulate – you’re the programmer in here, Jake, merely emulate what the code does without actually looking at it.

What – he says in his blog post it’s not clear why Google re-implemented the JVM, but they knew it was risky. Google – he says could have reasonably assumed that the probability of Sun’s suing them was near zero. That’s safe.

Denise Howell This is the hazard of any open source based product.

Leo Laporte Is the problem for open source in general?

Denise Howell It is a problem for open source in general because there are always murky issues about what has gone into the mix.

Leo Laporte We do see constant lawsuits over all open source software.

Denise Howell Right, because you can take two from column A and one from column B and some of them maybe licensed one way and some maybe not licensed at all.

Jeff Jarvis What ever happened to the famous – infamous open source troll company? I forgot the name of it – when after again and again and again they knew they were going to be threat to the whole world.

Leo Laporte The SCO – the SCO thing?

Denise Howell Yeah, yeah, SCO.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, yeah, whatever happened to that?

Leo Laporte It’s over, SCO is over. And if only – it only took them 25 years practically, but it’s just recently this – the whole SCO thing went away.

Denise Howell Right.

Leo Laporte Because they claimed that…

Denise Howell [Indiscernible] (30:15) litigation for years and years, great blog called Grok Law followed it all very, very closely.

Leo Laporte Right, right.

Jeff Jarvis Huge cost, right Denise?

Denise Howell Yeah, huge, huge.

Leo Laporte But mostly it cost the SCO because SCO lost big time on this and Linux was – and UNIX – you know, SCO bought the UNIX name basically and they said, well it’s UNIX and you are stealing UNIX code. [ph] They hadn’t, there was no merit (30:35). Although, remember that Microsoft also owns some of this stuff and has in fact licensed – remember they indemnify people who use – what was the deal? They indemnify people who use Microsoft products or Linux, I can’t remember the deal. They made a deal with Linux over that and said, okay, if you pay our license, we’ll protect you.

Denise Howell Right. And Linux actually has provisions in its documentation where every time you alter the kernel, contribute to the kernel and it gets accepted, you are supposedly indemnifying…

Leo Laporte Right.

Denise Howell …that you are the original intellectual property creator there.

Leo Laporte That’s another problem.

Denise Howell Yes.

Leo Laporte You got a million developers, you can’t always be sure that it’s clean.

Denise Howell Right, right. So, and the GPL people have been fighting along the way to update the license which happened not too long ago. I guess the current version has provisions that would deal with this situation, that would.

Leo Laporte In his blog post he says really the issue is you are going to damage the Sun Java ecosystem by this lawsuit, you’re going to make it very unlikely that people will look at Java and say, oh we should do – we should use Java. But on the other hand, the benefit you might make some money – they spent something like $6 billion, $6.5 billion for Sun – so he is saying, basically they’re trying to get back their money even though – in their financial justifications, even though there will be ecosystem, long-term damage to the ecosystem for a short-term cash windfall.

Jeff Jarvis Someone in the chat-room said to you Leo that why are they saying – this is the end of Java.

Leo Laporte It could be. Who would take a chance? With – knowing Oracle, you’re not going to mess with it. And I think this was one of the concerns when Oracle bought Sun. People were a little afraid of what's going to happen to Java.

Jeff Jarvis So is this part of the movement to end software patents? Is this hopeless?

Leo Laporte Oh man that’s – that’s something I’d love to see. But that isn’t – is that – how likely is that?

Denise Howell Not very likely in the wake of the Supreme Court’s recent statement on that front that…

Leo Laporte What did they say?

Denise Howell Software patents still survive, they are not going to be ruled out as they have been in other countries such as the EU, and I believe Australia has a similar piece of legislation pending where they’re just going to say that category of item is just not going to be unique enough, have that WizBang factor that leads something to be able to be patented, they are going to say – we are – you can take this on a case-by-case basis and we are going to let the Patent and Trademark Office work it out, which we know they haven’t been doing too fabulous a job on that.

Jeff Jarvis Right. I saw Beth Noveck this week, interview of my book on the Peer to Patent movement. She has done some really neat work on that and the Patent Office is a mess. So if you had Europe patent [ph] freelance (33:32) software, you’re still stuck with the lowest common denominator, aren’t you, you still stuck with America?

Denise Howell Right, you are.

Jeff Jarvis [Ph] But does you no good (33:38).

Leo Laporte Nice to know we are the lowest common denominator.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, right.

Denise Howell Yeah.

Leo Laporte So, Miguel de Icaza has also a blog a little bit on this – he’s the guy who did the GNOME and – he is currently doing an open source, Mono, the open source version of Dot.NET. And he thinks it’s just – he thinks it’s a good chance that Google just give him some billions of dollars and go away, and then Oracle goes one by one through all the OEMs, Google gives him money for the Google implementation of Android and then it’s on to HTC and Motorola and one by one…

Jeff Jarvis Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison have coffee recently?

Leo Laporte Good question because it sure is something that Steve would love to see happened. They did not – they did not, they opened Handset Alliance and Google did not license Sun before they made that Dalvik and I guess that’s the issue and perhaps it was something that Jonathan Schwartz knew when he was shopping the company that maybe he told Larry Ellison, hey by the way you could always get some of this money back by showing Google. Anyway it’s a bad thing. At the same time as they did that, I guess they thought, well everybody will be paying attention to that, maybe we’ll also announce that we are going to stop OpenSolaris. And that’s another bad move from Oracle for the open source movement. This is a really great open source operating system.

Denise Howell All I can say is I wouldn’t want to be the lawyer at Google who had blessed Android from the legal standpoint.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s a good point. I think they knew. I don’t think any lawyer would say, oh no, you know, you don’t have to license that. I think it was a calculus. I’m sure the lawyer who said, no dudes you are really exposed here, and the calculus was, well, Sun, what are they going to do about it.

Jeff Jarvis If you could magically rewrite Android again, do you lower your liability?

Leo Laporte No, you license it.

Denise Howell Yeah, you license it or you get indemnity.

Jeff Jarvis So it’s all negotiation? There is no alternative to negotiation?

Leo Laporte They can’t go back now, they can’t start over.

Jeff Jarvis Right.

Leo Laporte They’ve already done it. What’s done is done. They got to – they are going to – they are either going to give him a packet of money or they are going to say, come and get me, and it will go on for years. But the – that’s risky, isn’t it?

Denise Howell It’s risky.

Leo Laporte Could a judge issue an adjunction saying you can’t sell this anymore?

Denise Howell Absolutely. And Oracle will probably seek that kind of relief.

Jeff Jarvis Like TiVo.

Denise Howell Right. It’s – we’re at the very beginning stages of this here, so.

Leo Laporte I got another great legal conundrum for the great legal minds.

Jeff Jarvis Mind – singular.

Leo Laporte Mind. There’s one mind and the rest of us. This is a very interesting story from Facebook. A New Jersey town has started posting photos on Facebook of people they arrest for DUIs. It’s the Evesham Police Department. The mug shot of a suspected auto thief who was apprehended in Evesham was posted on its Facebook page. Then they started posting DUIs. Now, as far as I can tell, these are not – these are not people convicted of a crime.

Denise Howell Yeah. This is really disturbing. I’m hoping the ACLU is paying some attention and perhaps going to go in and challenge this practice. Because this people have privacy rights, I don’t know that you give up your privacy rights simply by being accused of a crime.

Jeff Jarvis But isn’t that all public record? In Europe you couldn’t do this. It’s against the law there. But here the police blotter is public record.

Leo Laporte Not the pictures.

Jeff Jarvis Well, but – but, no, yeah, I’m a reporter, yeah – I used to be a reporter…

Leo Laporte I won’t show the full thing, but here’s the Facebook post. On August 4, the Evesham Police Department located and arrested a male being sought by the Lower Providence Township, PA Police Department. And they are looking for who this guy is. They’re saying, tag him!


Leo Laporte So far they haven’t – nobody has tagged him.

Jeff Jarvis America’s most wanted.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis It’s America’s most…

Denise Howell Yes, yes.

Jeff Jarvis Okay.

Denise Howell We had a story like this on [Indiscernible] (37:36) where someone was riding the subway in Boston and engaging in some not-safe-for-anywhere sorts of activities. And another passenger got angry and posted a picture to Twitter and said, didn’t know who this person was but wanted to see if they could apprehend him, and sure enough they did.

Leo Laporte So is it legal to do that?

Denise Howell Sure, you could take a picture of a person in a public place, especially if they’re breaking the law in some way.

Leo Laporte Okay. That was a private individual doing it, though?

Denise Howell Yes, that was private individual.

Leo Laporte Is it different if a police department does it?

Denise Howell I think it is. I mean either…

Leo Laporte I think it is a presumption if I see this that the guy is guilty of a crime. And isn’t that exactly what you are not supposed to be?

Denise Howell Right, you’re not…

Leo Laporte You are innocent till proven…

Denise Howell Even with – given that the police blotter may be public and I just think, you know, you have that information there but you are not – when do you start having a police department posting it on the internet?

Jeff Jarvis But I think – well, hold on, hold on, counsel.

Leo Laporte By the way, Jeff and Danah Boyd had this debate…

Jeff Jarvis Yes, yes.

Leo Laporte Last month in that Caroline McCarthy in CNET saying that in fact this exact issue was debated last month.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, exactly. I think that we have to be more public. And yes, there was an issue that you’re innocent until proven guilty, amen. But…

Leo Laporte Yes, we do. I particularly enjoy that.

Jeff Jarvis But, it happens all the time now in a high-profile case. So who is to say where the line is between high-profile and low-profile? What freaks us out here is this could be any of us.

Denise Howell Right.

Jeff Jarvis Right? And these are not serial murderers going off and doing things, these are just plain old people. But it’s still – they are people in the public record who are accused of a crime. And that right now unless it’s – correct me if I’m wrong, unless it’s quashed in some way, that’s open.

Jake Jarvis [Indiscernible] (39:20) newspapers all the time, is it?

Leo Laporte Is this – so my question is, it doesn’t look like it’s – in some cases, for instance, here’s – on August 12, 2010 police responded to the Wal-Mart store. Two shoplifting suspects chased on foot. They were hiding in neighborhood. Here’s their picture, their age, their city. Is this punitive? Is this – they’re not asking for information, but these people have not been convicted of a crime…

Jake Jarvis Oh, it’s punitive, yeah.

Leo Laporte But they are being punished without due process.

Denise Howell Yeah, that’s what’s disturbing about this to me is that it’s one thing, you know, a newspaper has…

Leo Laporte Oh look, and look at – look at the disclaimer. ‘All persons on this page are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law,’ like that gets some off the hook.

Jeff Jarvis Sounds like a voice from Dragnet.

Denise Howell Yes.

Leo Laporte ‘Hey, your Honor, we posted it on our Facebook wall, it was our status post!’ For crying out loud. Look at all these perps on here. And by the way I’m not a Facebook member, I’m not logged in so this is not just for Facebook. This is public information.

Jeff Jarvis If one of those people were accused of murder, we wouldn’t be raising our eyebrows so much, right? Because…

Leo Laporte Yes, I would!

Denise Howell I would, yes, because…

Jeff Jarvis But don’t you say that police were seeking Joe Small and here is his picture and here is what he looks like?

Denise Howell You’re putting in though – the extrapolation here is that journalists have access to that information. That doesn’t mean that the rest of us do.

Jeff Jarvis Ah, but we’re all journalists.

Denise Howell Yes, well, though…

Leo Laporte Well, also though there is this tradition of saying ‘allegedly,’ ‘was – is accused of,’ they’re ‘looking for somebody in conjunction with an investigation of an event,’ they never say something like this…

Jeff Jarvis Because, Leo…

Leo Laporte Patricia Figueroa, age 45 was arrested for shoplifting from the Cole Store. Here’s her picture.

Jeff Jarvis Leo, here is what we do in journalism. We quote what the police saying that, so this is just re-saying it. This cuts out the middle man or the mediator immediately. Everybody has access to [indiscernible] (41:08).

Denise Howell And it takes the police and puts them into the role of the journalist.

Jeff Jarvis Yes, yes.

Denise Howell Ah. I don’t know. That’s where I have the privacy situation.

Jeff Jarvis Not disagreeing that I’m worried about it, but I don’t see the legal issue with it today.

Leo Laporte So what side were you – were you arguing this with Dana and Dana was saying, what was Dana’s argument?

Jeff Jarvis Dana’s was being sincere – she was on the good side.

Leo Laporte What do you mean, my side?

Jeff Jarvis Yes.


Jeff Jarvis She was saying, watch out, this is going to hit certain groups of people worse than others, it will be used, and I agree with all those concerns.

Leo Laporte I’d like to point that out that it’s mostly people of color on this page.

Jeff Jarvis Yes, yes. But right now the way the law stands today, the police blotter is opened to the public and the public is not someone who is a journalist, the public is the public. And especially now that I can go on and start a town blog in this town…

Leo Laporte Well, this is an interesting argument, isn’t it?

Jeff Jarvis And do this, I have all those access.

Denise Howell I do think it’s interesting. I think there is…

Leo Laporte It’s a fascinating…

Jeff Jarvis It is.

Denise Howell It’s something to talk about on the legal standpoint.

Leo Laporte I want to hear this on [ph] Twill (42:00).

Denise Howell It’s not a slam dunk.

Jeff Jarvis Yes.

Leo Laporte So it’s not clear cut. It strikes me as by posting it there – and it’s – as a normal person reading this, you – they are not saying accused of or was in the – investigation of – they’re saying, ‘we arrested these two for doing this.’

Jeff Jarvis But we’re used to the language of the journalist as mediator between this and the police. This is the language of police. The perpetrator – they’re saying the perpetrator did this, did that. They don’t say allegedly, they say we’re charging this person with this. Right? That’s the way they talk.

Leo Laporte Oh, so, it’s all the journalists are saying…

Jeff Jarvis It’s the journalists who add in the allegeds. It’s the journalists – because the journalists are covering their rears in this.

Leo Laporte Ah!

Jeff Jarvis And they attribute it to the police.

Leo Laporte They do use the word ‘suspect’ here. They don’t use the word ‘bad guy.’ I mean, I don’t – does that let him of the hook? I don’t know.

Jeff Jarvis Right.

Denise Howell Right. Sometimes when you take already publicly available information and you have the public entity that is in charge of that information all of a sudden making it widely available on the Internet…

Leo Laporte Right.

Denise Howell Like court documents, for example…

Leo Laporte It does change things.

Denise Howell All of that is public, but you know…

Leo Laporte All this is the same as you would see in the court documents.

Denise Howell Somebody could start posting all of our household deeds somewhere online, that’s all public. But if the county started doing it? I don’t know…

Jeff Jarvis Then I think there’s a troubling line if you go back the other way, you say okay, well, see we don’t like this, where there needs to be a line because it could be anybody. Then where does that line end? And I argue that what’s public is public. And if you enable people not to put the stuff up that at some point when the mayor is arrested for DUI…

Leo Laporte Yes, you are right.

Jeff Jarvis And the mayor claims the same right, the mayor says, no, no, no, you can’t release my name. We would all be screaming bloody murder.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Jeff Jarvis No, you are the mayor. Okay, you are…

Denise Howell But there you have the journalistic interest in the story that would pull that out, and…

Jeff Jarvis Yes, but if I’m the [indiscernible] (43:46) in Montclair New Jersey, any of my neighbors is a journalistic interest.

Leo Laporte No, no, a prurient interest, that the mayor is of true interest because he’s held being held to a higher – or she’s being held to a…

Jeff Jarvis Or Norbard down the street, I’ve seen him running down the block, I’m glad they finally got Norby, Jesus, I saw him at the bar and then he comes along and finally, yes.

Leo Laporte That’s prurient. A mayor is an elected official, there’s a higher standard.

Jeff Jarvis Or what about the stories, I love this one in law…

Leo Laporte And that’s the only reason why you’d ever want to take law, you don’t want to practice law, you just want to take law classes forever, right?

Denise Howell Yes, law class is going to be fun.

Jeff Jarvis What about the towns that put up johns as a way to discourage people from being drunk?

Leo Laporte But those are convicted johns.

Jeff Jarvis Not always. I think they’re arrested, I think they were arrested, they were up there.

Denise Howell I don’t know.

Jeff Jarvis I understand that you never hear but I think that…

Denise Howell I’ve never seen a john on the Internet.

Leo Laporte Here is an interesting question from our chat room. Curtis P says to ask you, Denise, if this is – the suspect posted here could then sue for defamation if they’re proven innocent afterwards?

Denise Howell I don’t think so.

Leo Laporte No?

Denise Howell Nothing about what the…

Leo Laporte Al lit said is they were arrested.

Denise Howell They are arrested, they are a suspect, they are charged…

Leo Laporte It’s all true.

Jeff Jarvis You could sue for false arrest in certain cases.

Leo Laporte But nothing on this page is untrue?

Jeff Jarvis Nothing, just doesn’t do this.

Denise Howell There is a species of defamation called false light, portraying a person in a false light, and this kind of comes close to that but I think the police are covered here. They are not, other than under privacy kinds of considerations…

Jeff Jarvis If they do a bad arrest they might go other way…

Denise Howell Right, right, right.

Jake Jarvis If this was not on Facebook, people would have no problem with this.

Leo Laporte It’s because it’s on Facebook, you are absolutely right, Jake.

Denise Howell Or if the police department was posting it on its site.

Leo Laporte If they had a bulletin board, it’d be the same. If they had a…

Jeff Jarvis What’s a site – what’s a site? We are going to get past sites, you go to where the people are.

Leo Laporte Yes, yes, what does it mean, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Well let me ask you both, if Baristanet posted this for every person arrested in Montclair, New Jersey, would you have the same problem?

Denise Howell Baristanet?

Jeff Jarvis That’s a local blog, hyper local blog.

Denise Howell Okay.

Leo Laporte No.

Jeff Jarvis No, right.

Leo Laporte Right, no. I guess not. It’s because it’s Facebook.

Denise Howell No, because I think that’s…

Leo Laporte You are right Jake, it’s Facebook. It’s way too public.

Jeff Jarvis Do you have a problem with the police department, Jake, doing this?

Jake Jarvis No. I mean, people don’t have to follow it.

Denise Howell I have a problem with the police department doing it on its own Facebook page.

Jake Jarvis Why though?

Denise Howell Because I think that they are taking on a journalistic role that actually winds up violating people’s privacy expectations.

Leo Laporte Interesting. I think it’s because they are punishing them without due process, or punishing them before the trial by publicizing their information. It’s like well, you got arrested so here is your punishment.

Jeff Jarvis Part of the protection we have is that your trial is held in public for the accused as well.

Leo Laporte That’s true.

Denise Howell And part of the protection an accused people have is that their jury pool is not tainted. So this is…

Leo Laporte That’s true too.

Denise Howell Yes, this is a…

Leo Laporte This might taint the jury pool.

Jeff Jarvis I love Leo’s role in this.

Leo Laporte You know what’s – here is what I find very interesting, which, you are all right, I love them all. What I find very interesting is, and this is really what you are studying and it always comes down to is our notion of privacy and public has completely changed. And it’s only because these tools, when things are public they are public, and when they are private you know they are private and these tools change, this – the Internet changes that.

Jeff Jarvis There is a great discussion going on on my blog as I’m researching my book in which one post, Sam Lessin who started…

Leo Laporte Love Sam, nice guy.

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (47:10) on This Week in Google said that what’s happened economically is that the price of privacy used to be free and publicness/publicity cost you a lot, [indiscernible] it was (47:20) very expensive to be a star. It’s the exact opposite now.

Denise Howell Yes.

Jeff Jarvis Publicity is cheap and privacy is expensive.

Leo Laporte That’s true.

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (47:26) effort.

Leo Laporte That’s true.

Jeff Jarvis And then David Windber came in and said we have a public-privacy axis here, they are not binary, it’s not one or the other, but he said that in the old days you are either Marilyn Monroe or you are [ph] Schmaltz (47:40), right, and now we are all, we all have a celebrity, we all do these issues and it does change how we deal with having a public face because we all have one. Even if we don’t have our own Facebook page, we could be tagged…

Leo Laporte Right.

Jeff Jarvis On a Facebook page.

Leo Laporte So here is another link from the chat room, Chicago Tribune, mugs in the news. A collection of Chicago area arrest photos. Arrest and booking photos are provided by law enforcement officials. Arrest does not imply guilt, and criminal charges are merely accusations. A defendant is presumed innocent unless proven guilty. He doesn’t look happy.

Jeff Jarvis This is – but this is maybe voyeurism but it’s fun.

Leo Laporte That’s how I know it’s wrong. It’s way too interesting.

Denise Howell Yes.

Leo Laporte All right. We are going to take another break. Jeff Jarvis, Jake Jarvis are here; Denise Howell as well, we are glad you are here as well talking about legal stuff. We got some more tech news also. And I want to talk a little bit about the hot piece of – the HPO, I’ve never heard of that. Have you ever heard of that acronym? I never heard of that acronym.

Denise Howell Never, no, not all…

Leo Laporte I think they made it up.

Jeff Jarvis Did you ever heard of it Jake?

Jake Jarvis No.

Jeff Jarvis Good.

Leo Laporte It’s probably in the urban dictionary. But we are way too sophisticated to know about that. Before we do, I do want to mention our friends at Citrix, they GoToMeeting, that wonderful software that you use to save yourself from travel. So you have Jeff and Denise who just use GoToMeeting, they could be nice and comfortable and ensconced at home, actually GoToMeeting is not so great for vacations but for business, yes.

Jeff Jarvis Save a lot of money, [indiscernible] bad idea (49:11) GoToMeeting, Disney World, that sounds good.

Leo Laporte That’s interesting. You’re talking about virtual reality. You know I imagine future versions of GoToMeeting, GoToMeeting 2012 might have that feature. Just put on the helmet and you are there.

The whole idea of GoToMeeting is to take that boring conference call, unproductive conference call and make it effective, make it visual, make it engaging. That’s just what it’s all about. It’s about saving you time and travel money; it’s about being engaged. GoToMeeting keeps everybody on the same page during conference calls, everybody on the call can see your screen, sees what’s happens, you are on a conference call, you can do it on the fly, you just say okay, everybody go to right now, here is the meeting ID, now suddenly they are seeing your computer on their screen, you can show them the PowerPoint, the Keynote presentation, yes, Mac or PC. You can show them spreadsheets, you can collaborate too, you know, you can say, what you think what’s wrong with this paragraph, and they can type. They can take control and show you what’s on their computer as well. Up to 15 people at a time, everyone on the call, more focused, more interested, more engaged. You are going to love it. For sales presentations, for product demos, for training, collaborating, weekly update calls. We use it all the time here. We have several accounts. I want you to try it free for 30 days. Go to 30 days free unlimited use. Just give it a try. Show your colleagues, your clients, show the boss – I think the boss will be impressed; Let me thank them so much for their support of this WEEK in TECH.

Jeff Jarvis is here. The book What Would Google Do? Do you have to rewrite it now a little bit now that you…

Jeff Jarvis I’ll probably do an – I was just talking to the publisher, I’ll probably do a new forward for it.

Leo Laporte What Google – What Did Google Do? is what you have to call. What Did Google Do?

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] got a lot naughty (51:02) and he’s trying to get his Googlization of everything and I saw [ph] towards (51:03) this morning that he had to add-in the net neutrality feel as he put it into his book, he’s constantly changing his manuscript.

Leo Laporte He should’ve submitted it a long time ago. Now it’s too late. He’s going to have to change it every month, Google’s doing so many different and interesting things all the time. Did you see the announcement? I think we missed this. This Week in Google happened the morning of the announcement that these new hands-free commands. Jake, do you use an iPhone or…

Jake Jarvis iPhone.

Leo Laporte Your iPhone. And Jeff, we made you use a Nexus One – oh you got both. Look at that. Well I confess, I’ve got both with me too, but that’s only because…

Jeff Jarvis I want to see your stack of phones.

Leo Laporte Yeah, there’s quite a big stack. I got the Bumper case. You know this is the free Bumper case. They said it wouldn’t come till September, it came. Can’t believe they are charging 30 bucks for this piece of plastic, hard to believe. Anyway…

Denise Howell It’s very sleek though.

Leo Laporte It’s pretty. It’s pretty. And Apple bought Siri, which is a really cool application that let’s you say things like, book me a restaurant, book me a dinner for two at Humble Pie or whatever. But this new – I think the voice commands, unfortunately it’s not in – you have to have 2.2, so it’s really only a few phones like the Droid 2 or the Nexus One that can do it. But it’s amazing.

Jeff Jarvis It is. That’s right.

Leo Laporte You press a button, you can say note to self, it’ll send you an email.

Jeff Jarvis What did they say, Leo, I think something like 25% of search queries are mobile or coming from voice command in these environments...

Leo Laporte That’s amazing.

Jeff Jarvis Some huge number, I forgot [ph] the one (52:23).

Leo Laporte So this is one way of responding to the change in search is to – is natural language, artificial intelligence. The ability to talk to it and ask it for what you want, like, hey send me directions to the nearest Starbucks. You actually can say, directions to Starbucks and it’ll find the nearest Starbucks and it’ll open Google navigate and it’ll take you there. That’s pretty cool. You can say play this WEEK in TECH and it’ll play the podcast – I think you have to say listen to. So that’s very cool. And then they also unveiled – we have been talking about it on the show for a while, the Chrome to Phone feature where you can…

Jeff Jarvis And now Phone to Chrome, both ways.

Leo Laporte Right. In the announcement, though, they said, I think this is the most important [ph] bit (53:03) and wasn’t really widely bruited, but they announced 200,000 activations a day now. 1.4 million phones a week. That’s five – almost six million phones a month. They have now sold more Android phones than iPhones in the past year and I am sure they will eclipse iPhone soon.

Jeff Jarvis And we still have tons of devices coming out, Dell’s just came out last week.

Leo Laporte The Streak, yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Streak. Or you got one, Leo?

Leo Laporte I should. It’s AT&T, which really demotivates me, I hate to say it.

Jeff Jarvis Will it work with the T-Mobile SIM or no?

Leo Laporte That’s – it’s SIM locked but I am sure somebody will come up with an unlock at some point. But right now, no. Stuck with the AT&T.

Denise Howell But Streak is the slightly larger than an iPhone and smaller than an iPad thing.

Leo Laporte By five inches. It’s not slightly larger, it’s five inches. It’s the largest phone out there but looks pretty dorky. I am sure when you hold this thing, slab up to your head. But I think that that – we were talking about this on This Week in Google – yeah there you go, Denise said it looks good, she’s talking [ph] to her (54:04) iPad. We were talking about it in This Week in Google, that’s the difference between Apple and Google. Apple, you know Steve Jobs probably at some point there was a table with all different size screens for the iPhone, everywhere from 2 inches to 10 inches and Steve goes, that one. And that’s it. And as you said, Jeff, the difference is there is still a table of all the different sizes but we get to say, that one.

Jeff Jarvis Right?

Jake Jarvis Well, it’s a same thing with Mac computers and Windows computers.

Leo Laporte That’s true. But you use a Mac, don’t you?

Jake Jarvis Yeah, I use Mac.

Leo Laporte Admit the truth. He’s got a Mac right and an iPhone. I think it’s a little different in phones. I love Macs and I think the Macs are much more open than phones though. The iPhone is so closed.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte You can make a pretty strong case for the choice in the Android phone. So what is obviously is happening is that the balance of power shifting, Android phones now are going to be – what I am curious about and you’re a developer, Jake, I’d be curious what you say about this. I wonder how long before developers start saying, okay we’re going to develop for the Android platform first and then if we’ve got any resources left, we’ll do an iPhone version. How long before that happens?

Jake Jarvis I don’t know – it’s very different. I mean you have to almost completely make two different apps.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s true. I mean Windows, Mac, same thing.

Jake Jarvis Right, exactly.

Leo Laporte So [indiscernible] (55:21) that and I think what’s happening is you’re seeing maybe – might say aesthetically, Android id not as good as the lot --

Jake Jarvis Yeah, I think that’s what people are waiting for.

Leo Laporte [Ph] Droid (55:30) to be as good.

Jake Jarvis Yeah, just ease of use and all – you can’t find an ugly iPhone app, I think.

Leo Laporte Well, that’s odd because people who buy phones are – it’s outselling Apple phones like 2 to 1 now – 3 to 1.

Jake Jarvis Well, it’s on all carriers and you can get --

Leo Laporte Well, it doesn’t matter. More people are buying it. Hasn’t the market spoken?

Jake Jarvis If you’re locked into Verizon, then you have to buy an Android phone

Jeff Jarvis For now.

Jake Jarvis I’ve heard the story everywhere on the Internet.

Leo Laporte It’s merely because the – so you’re saying Android’s selling so many phones only because people aren’t on AT&T.

Jake Jarvis It’s so many phones, yeah. iPhone is one phone.

Leo Laporte You buy that?

Denise Howell I think I do, yeah, that you have to make an affirmative effort to go out and get an iPhone but if you’re just picking up a phone, it may be an Android phone because that’s just what you got.

Leo Laporte I’d tell you. If I am a developer I don’t care why.

Denise Howell Yeah.

Leo Laporte I am just looking at 200,000 phones a day. That’s a new market. That’s a big market. And it’s growing fast. And I think it’s obviously permanently outpaced the iPhone. Do you think? Can Apple come back? What if Apple goes on Verizon in January? Does that change it?

Jake Jarvis I think – yeah, I think so.

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (56:37) 35% of AT&T Apple users are waiting to go on Verizon.

Jake Jarvis Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Now, you say that who knows.

Leo Laporte I am waiting.

Jake Jarvis And all the Verizon users who are waiting to get an iPhone.

Leo Laporte That will be the test of your assertion because if it’s suddenly available on Verizon and then it says, oh, now, we’re going to sell 150,000 more, then, okay, maybe.

Denis Howell Plus it’s more expensive though. You have to factor that in.

Leo Laporte It’s the same, 200 bucks.

Jeff Jarvis There will be free Android phones.

Jake Jarvis I think – I am sure there are.

Leo Laporte Oh, you mean the iPhone’s more expensive.

Denise Howell Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Jeff Jarvis But Jake, don’t you also have more risk with the iPhone that you [indiscernible] (57:13) you make the app and then Steve says, no.

Jake Jarvis Sure. Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Right?

Leo Laporte That’s to me the risk. I tried to get Lisa Bettany to come on and she says, we’re not allowed to speak.

Jeff Jarvis At all.

Leo Laporte At all. But Lisa worked with a company called tap tap tap to make – she is a photographer, been on TWiT many times, she’s great person – to make an application called Cam+. This is a very cool application. I have it right here on – in fact, on my iPhone. So you use it to retouch photos, to create different styles. It’s a nice application. So they released an update to the Apple Store that turned the volume switch on the iPhone into a camera button, which is actually something pretty cool. On a lot of Android phones you have – or lot of phones in general, you have a camera button, not on the iPhone, it’s a soft button, you have to press it. And Apple said, no. Read – look here, you see the fine print, it says, in the developers agreement you – thou may not, thou shalt not modify the functionality of the volume buttons, not allowed. So they didn’t allow that app to come out.

Jake Jarvis The app was sold in the Apple Store, that one.

Leo Laporte This was an update of the app.

Jake Jarvis Right. Then the next revision they hid the feature.

Leo Laporte So what happened is – exactly, they didn’t – it was already in there.

Jake Jarvis Yup.

Leo Laporte They posted a tweet, which was immediately redacted but too late, the Internet – everything lives forever. They posted a tweet that said, well, yeah, it is a funny thing. If you go to Safari and you enter Cam+, what was it, Camera phone – camphoneplus://

Jake Jarvis Something like that.

Leo Laporte Enable shutter button – I’ll get the actually URL for you. You can Google it. It’s easy to find. Oh, lo and behold, the original app, it turns it on, I’ve got it right now. Here, watch, it’s really cool. I’ll take a picture. So Apple – oh, I just took a picture of me. That’s not good. Apple said, wow, and they pulled the app off. Well, we don’t know. See, look – it snaps it just like that, when I press this button. This is a very nice feature. But Apple is very clear that you’re not allowed to do that. I understand why Apple said that because it’s confusing, right? Their position [ph] is always (59:21) Apple’s kind of aesthetic is, no, a button does one thing and one thing only. If you make this button have two functions, people will be confused. And we don’t want confusion to reign the land of Apple. Do we?

Denise Howell It’s like the mouse.

Leo Laporte It’s the mouse. It’s a one-button mouse. So the nice thing on a Mac, you can just buy a new mouse but you better not do that on the iPhone because we’ll pull your app from the App Store. Now I tried to get Lisa to tell me whether it was – and this is – there is still a question. Was it Apple that pulled it? These guys at tap tap tap are great marketers. It could very well be that they pulled it to get the attention that they are getting right now. We don’t know.

Jake Jarvis [Indiscernible] (59:55) few weeks ago that if you press certain configuration of colors it turned the tethering on.

Leo Laporte The tethering, Apple pulled that one too.

Jake Jarvis Well, obviously, but this one’s a little more innocent.

Leo Laporte Couple of things that are embarrassing for Apple in that. First of all, their vetting process isn’t and couldn’t be perfect. So if you can do that you could probably put malware out there, spyware there, it’s completely possibly because you are not giving the source code to Apple to bury stuff in an application. That’s obvious now. So it’s a little embarrassing to Apple. But also this issue, now is Apple in the wrong in yanking this? Let’s say – let’s assume, I don’t know if tap, tap, tap did it. I am going to assume Apple yanked it. Is Apple wrong in yanking the app?

Jake Jarvis This app is the same thing as the tethering app. They are hiding a feature that Apple told them not to do. It’s against their --

Leo Laporte Right, they violated the terms of service.

Jake Jarvis So, I guess technically, legally, yeah.

Leo Laporte But I understand they have the right to do it. Were they wrong to do it?

Jake Jarvis They weren’t wrong the second time to retract the app because there was a hidden feature. But first time I think they should give the users a little more credit.

Leo Laporte Right.

Jake Jarvis All iPhone users are not stupid. They can understand that when the camera app is open the volume buttons do not change the volume.

Leo Laporte And [indiscernible] (61:03) are saying in our chat room, look, if you are smart enough to find this camplus://url and enter it in, presumably, you are smart enough to know that you did it on purpose and that the volume buttons are changing their functionality only in this context. So it seems to me that Apple could reasonably say all right, well, go ahead.

Jeff Jarvis If – any other company would say, hey, listen to your customers, they want this button. Of course, Apple doesn’t listen, so.

Leo Laporte No, so that’s my point. I guess that’s just my point. And tap, tap, tap – now it’s interesting, because tap, tap, tap says and I believe them, they have sold $0.5 million worth of this application, which means Apple got 30% of that, $150,000 in their pocket. And so they’re willing to turn their back on quite a bit of money.

Jeff Jarvis What would you say if Samsung did this or BlackBerry?

Leo Laporte I think they would yank it. I don’t think Apple cares.

Jeff Jarvis Right.

Leo Laporte I think Apple believes and I think probably rightly so they are the keeper of the flame and if you are choosing the Apple platform, you are choosing that point of view, aren’t you?

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Jake Jarvis Yeah, that’s – yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Leo Laporte Denise, anything to say?

Denise Howell No, I agree.

Leo Laporte She is fondling her iPhone.

Denise Howell I am watching the chat on my iPhone.

Leo Laporte [Ph] Wikigadget (62:15), can’t you see it on there, on your iPad?

Denise Howell Well, there is kind of multitasking issue with that if I want to look at the story and [indiscernible] (62:24).

Leo Laporte Oh, that. You can’t multitask.


Denise Howell Yes, so two devices do the job.

Leo Laporte Seinfeld says he saw a study that found Apple users are more anxious about computers than other – than Windows users. So maybe Apple is just rightly saying, well, we don’t want to create any anxiety.

Another story from Apple, according to Wall Street Journal, an Apple employee at mid-level, not a high level, mid-level Apple employee was arrested on Friday for receiving $1 million in kickbacks from six suppliers to Apple’s six companies in Asia that supply to Apple. By the way, they published his name. So I guess accused, alleged, charged, he was indicted by the federal grand jury for wire fraud, money laundering, unlawful monetary transactions and --

Jeff Jarvis I am surprised that Apple doesn’t have controls – 10 layers of controls or something. That would be --

Leo Laporte Well, they caught him.

Denise Howell Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah, they did.

Leo Laporte He only got $1 million.

Jeff Jarvis It’s going to be a very expensive $1 million.

Leo Laporte Yeah, no kidding. Apple said it began investigating him for a possible violation of corporate policies, found cash or suspicious emails from his personal Hotmail and Gmail account in his company’s laptop and they really got him red-handed.

Denise Howell Should be one of our tips of the week on TWiL where we tell people, don’t do this, please don’t do this.


Leo Laporte Yeah, just don’t do it on – well, either don’t do it or don’t do it on a company laptop. That might be the better advice.

Denise Howell Yes. You bet.

Leo Laporte Mark Hurd probably could tell him a little bit about that.

Jeff Jarvis Do you have any opinions about that, about Hurd?

Leo Laporte It’s interesting because I talked to Paul Thurrott who does our Windows show, who is a big fan of Hurd’s. Hurd came in and rescued HP, [indiscernible] (1:04:08) and pretty much dug a deep ditch for HP with the Compaq merger and a bunch of other things. And Mark Hurd came in, turned the company around, laid a lot of people off. In fact, I saw his approval rating among HP employees was down like 34%. Nevertheless, he has made the company very successful, very profitable. I think it’s the acquisition of Palm is very intriguing and perhaps a very good idea. That was clearly his idea. He really championed that and of course, he was fired. Paul things it’s because HP is just basically kind of an old fashioned company. He was fired because allegedly --

Jeff Jarvis Reputedly –

Leo Laporte Reputedly, well, there is some debate about this actually. Allegedly, he fudged his expense accounts, not even for very much money, some say, just a few tens of thousands of dollars to wine and dine a lovely young lady who happened to be an HP contractor and put travel and so forth on his company expense report. And HP said, well, you can’t do that violation. She had sued him for sexual harassment. It’s not clear whether he was fired for harassment or for…

Jeff Jarvis [ph] No, it wasn’t – (1:05:13) the investigation found no problem there, but in the process of that I understand they found this illegitimate – allegedly illegitimate [indiscernible] (1:05:25).

Leo Laporte Well, maybe that was like Al Capone’s violation of tax code. It was just a way to bust him.

Jeff Jarvis Well, but then the person who filed complaint put a statement out, she was very sorry that he lost his job, he shouldn’t have lost his job and they settled and they settled personally. HP didn’t settle with her.

Leo Laporte Oh Interesting.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Jake Jarvis [ph] Resigned (1:05:42) didn’t he, he wasn’t fired.

Jeff Jarvis He was forced to –

Jake Jarvis He was going to be. Yeah.

Leo Laporte I am sure he was forced to resign, yeah by the Board. Such an interesting…

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (1:05:49) I think then complained to the Board and publicly to The New York Times…

Leo Laporte Well, there’s even some lawsuits now.

Jeff Jarvis [ph] There’s now lawsuits about (1:05:53). And you wonder whether we gotten two [indiscernible] (1:05:57).

Leo Laporte Paul’s opinion was, I don’t know if you agree with this, [ph] there is just an (1:06:00) HP’s kind of an old fashioned company there, they are not a modern tech company that – had it been Google or another company it might not have gone down.

Jeff Jarvis [ph] Wasn’t that (1:06:08) HP that was bugging reporters?

Leo Laporte Yes, well that’s another story.

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (1:06:13).

Leo Laporte But that was under Carly Fiorina wasn’t it? Yeah, the, what they call that when they pretend to be somebody else, there is a name for it.

Jeff Jarvis Oh Yeah.

Denise Howell Yes, and I am [ph] blinking on it (1:06:24) too.

Leo Laporte But you know the chat room will know, pretexting.

Denise Howell Pretexting.

Leo Laporte How fast is that.

Jeff Jarvis Who needs a brain when you have a chat room?

Leo Laporte No, the chat room is my brain. Thank you Brian and W pretexting where they pretend to be somebody else. Let’s talk about Jenny just a little bit [ph] but (1:06:40) first.

Denise Howell Jenny, Jenny.

Leo Laporte Jenny. What’s Jenny’s number, everybody knows 8675 – I want to mention a brand new sponsor on the show. We’re really glad to have them. They actually – it’s General Electric. And they were doing a Green Tech show and we’re really happy to have General Electric as part of our partnership to make the Green Tech show possible. GE has something they call the $200 million Ecomagination Challenge. They are giving, I think this is so cool, GE and its partners are giving $200 million out to ideas that help build the next-generation power grid for the 21st century. So if you go to you could find out more about this. They are making investments in three energy categories. The first is renewables. They are looking for better ways to integrate renewable energy into the power grid. Of course, sun solar, wind, water. I was just on the Vanderbilt estate in upper New York State. This is a gilded-age estate, beautiful, so gorgeous. Beautiful house. They – this is they built it in 1898. They were the first home to have bathrooms, now our houses but bathrooms with running water, but they had – they put a water power station on the creek. This is at the turn of the century and the house had electricity…

Jeff Jarvis Wow!

Leo Laporte …from the creek. It was like – this was like a state-of-the-art house. Not only do we have toilets, we have lights. So we are again back to the old ideas I guess.

The second category grid efficiency, they want to convert the smart grid to digital energy. This is – that’s the new name, the new term people are starting to use for smart grid to improve transparency at every step of the grid, power generation to consumption to reduce waste and to give consumers and energy service providers better choice. Do you ever think that you could choose your electricity where it comes from? Push a button.

The third investment category is eco homes and buildings. GE says energy consumption is growing so quickly it’s creating an imbalance between demand and supply – we know that, that’s obvious. That’s leading to higher energy costs, of course, for everybody, consumers and business, so they want to change how and when we use energy to lower energy costs. So you can enter this, believe it or not. If you enter GE’s Ecomagination Challenge, you’ll have the opportunities to develop a commercial relationship with GE, [ph] we’re (1:09:10) looking for entrepreneurs, business types, tech types smart people. GE will help you scale the concept quickly with their sales and distribution infrastructure, accelerate development. They’ve got a lot of technical people that can help you. And even secure investment, either from GE or their partner VC for Silicon Valley, $200 million and this is great. Go to to learn more, submit your ideas and [ph] enter the (1:09:37) challenge. You can review and this actually everybody, even if you’re not an entrepreneur or an inventor I want you to go there because you get to look at – I’m going to pull this up – and review the ideas already submitted. Just quick participate in the challenge, so anybody can get involved in this, They announced this the other day, in San Francisco actually and I was kind of head out there and I think we were out of town. Oh dear, I hope that’s not the case. Ecoimagination – Ecomagination. Did I spell it wrong? Ecomagination, no I.

Denise Howell Okay. So I have my entry –

Leo Laporte Here it is. It’s coming up. Yes, Ecomagination, no I. I’m sorry, I said it wrong. Yes.

Denise Howell I have my entry.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Denise Howell So down the road from here there is a house that has a metal sculpture/windmill on top of it that’s made...

Leo Laporte Isn’t that cool?

Denise Howell …half barrels and it rotates right off…

Leo Laporte I see that house everyday as go by.

Denise Howell …the 101 Freeway. You plant one on top of the TWiT Cottage and it powers everything in here.

Leo Laporte We’ve actually really been interested in figuring out a way to make this green and solar whatever. One of the things we use very – these are all LED lights and compact florescent lights. So we use very little – surprisingly little power. This is an antique home. We couldn’t power real lights in here. So we try to do the best.

Jeff Jarvis You know what’s great about the GE thing? I am not paid to say this, you are. So it’s okay I can see that.

Leo Laporte Yeah. You can say it out.

Jeff Jarvis Is that – I think it’s where we need to go in all kinds of ways and it wasn’t that long ago when companies would say, no, no, no. Don’t send [ph] us our (1:11:15) ideas because we are going to be liable for [ph] your product (1:11:16).

Leo Laporte Right.

Jeff Jarvis And we don’t want to hear any ideas. And this is the way the rule has to go and the fact they’re going to invest a large amount of money in entrepreneurship and new ideas is where – it’s a capitalistic thing. I am starting an investment fund at CUNY where I tech journalism [ph] – business model for news. (1:11:31)

Leo Laporte Are you? That’s great.

Jeff Jarvis Looks like it’s – a lot of lawyers do a lot of pro bono work to figure out all the details if I do that. But I think that’s what we have to do in an industry. For industries, we’ve got to invest in entrepreneurship and new ideas and so doing this and advertising it to a geek entrepreneurial technology audience, I think it’s very smart.

Leo Laporte It’s great idea. They’ve got a Google Map up here of where these ideas are coming from. 42 so far from Canada, 657 from the U.S., 12 from Mexico, they are from all over the world. Algeria, Greece, Oman, Kenya, Singapore, India, Australia, the Philippines, this is really cool. 1,107 ideas submitted so far. You can vote, 15,000 votes registered, 10,000 comments, 10,000 users joined the Ecomagination Challenge, We do thank GE for supporting the TWiT network and for advertising on our new Green Tech show. We’re really having fun with that show and you can…

Jeff Jarvis Which is also a good idea for a show.

Leo Laporte Yeah, well we’ve wanted to do it for a while. And Sarah Lane and Dr. Kirsten Sanford are science reporters to do the show. You can listen to it if – or watch it if you go, Green Tech Today and we’re really having – having a partner like GE really made it possible this expensive show. It’s pretty. So who here fell for Jenny? And I meant fell for the story.

Jeff Jarvis Well, both ways. [ph] She was very cute, yeah. (1:13:01)

Leo Laporte I admit it. I saw – and this is the thing, you should know when you see something on you should think twice, right?

Jeff Jarvis They’ve done it before. But we kind of wanted to fall for her.

Leo Laporte I wanted to believe it.

Jeff Jarvis That’s what’s interesting in this case. Even we knew when the first word came out, I said, [ph] whoa (1:13:18) guys, this is probably a hoax. We said, okay, so what? We’re going to enjoy this anyway.

Leo Laporte So, Jake, come on. You are the young guy. Did you fall for it?

Jake Jarvis I did. Yeah.

Leo Laporte Everybody fell for it. So tell us the story. Who is jenny?

Jake Jarvis I don’t know much about it. But apparently [ph] there’s a (1:13:35) girl that quit her job.

Leo Laporte Or supposedly.

Jake Jarvis Supposedly quit her job, and –

Leo Laporte And quit it very publicly.

Jake Jarvis Yeah, and used 30 pictures of her writing on this whiteboard to do it.

Leo Laporte She says, I quit, I’ve learned a lot these past two years. And she’s got glasses – [ph] it’s (1:13:51) pretty credible, right?

Jake Jarvis Looks real.

Denise Howell Great expressions [indiscernible] (1:13:55).

Leo Laporte I’m going to miss you.

Jeff Jarvis Boy, she’s an actress.

Leo Laporte She says, except – I’m going to miss you all except one I’m looking at you Spencer, being your assistant has been a special hell, I put up with your temper and your bad breathe, you know, why this resonates everybody’s wanted to write these, right?

Jake Jarvis Yeah [indiscernible] (1:14:14).

Denise Howell Yes, hopefully, she’ll inspire someone.

Leo Laporte On Friday I transferred you a call, I was about to hang up when I heard you call me a HPOA. HPOA??, HPOA, and then she defines HPOA as Hot Piece Of [ph] (1:14:28).

Denise Howell They had a little spelling error there.

Jeff Jarvis [Indiscernible] (1:14:31) discussion about [ph] that on the Internet (1:14:32) people said, you’re being [ph] too literal / liberal (1:14:34). That’s how I guess how it said.

Leo Laporte She said HPOA, but it’s really HPOA, that’s interesting. You’d thinking a hoax, you would spell it right. Is that really all you thought of me? Look how sad she looks there. Did you ever wonder why everybody in the office called the trash, a garbage, di Spencer. That’s a little…

Jeff Jarvis That was a little, yeah –

Leo Laporte Yeah, that should have been a red flag.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte Right there. That’s a little Steve Carell.

Jeff Jarvis That was too convenient

Leo Laporte Yeah. Office morale is down since you installed the “little office snitch”, so you could monitor how we spend our time, this I believe, so I wondered how does Spencer spend his time online? You gave me the codes after all four hours a week on Scottrade, it supposed to be a brokerage, right, so that’s his real job. 5.3 hours a week in TechCrunch. Incidentally there is the giveaway.

Jeff Jarvis That was brilliant. Brilliant.

Leo Laporte This is the giveaway.

Jeff Jarvis He knew they’d fall for it.

Leo Laporte They fell for it. So the little plug for TechCrunch, this is where the Resig Brothers showed they know what they’re doing, and --

Jeff Jarvis [ph] that it said (75:44) 5.3 hours on TWiT.

Leo Laporte I would have fallen for it. They missed the boat on that one. And drumroll 190 – no, I’m sorry 19.7 hours a week playing FarmVille. This by the way if you think about it, half his workday playing FarmVille it’s not that compelling.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte Even I who was addicted to FarmVille [ph] never [indiscernible] (76:04) think, maybe I --

Jeff Jarvis You need one big herd.

Leo Laporte If I get a message like this from Lisa – so this HPOA, now by the way this is when I – this is when I start to get a little suspicious she moves the whiteboard out of the way to showoff what a HPOA she is.

Denise Howell She also changes clothes.

Leo Laporte And suddenly she goes from her blue tank top to a white tank top, throws away the glasses and she is wearing short shorts. So this HPOA is moving on although and by the way again this is clearly calculated, right. I mean, it’s obvious. Why we fell for this I don’t know. Although I don’t have another job something tells me I’ll be just fine. So I saw this, I came really close but I didn’t to forwarding it to somebody and saying oh! Isn’t this fine. Didn’t. And I thanked god, I didn’t because Jenny has been has been revealed to be an actress.

Jeff Jarvis Elyse Porterfield.

Leo Laporte Yeah, in fact there is a video now on the website from Jenny.

Jeff Jarvis Oh!

Leo Laporte Yeah. They really – this was quite brilliantly done. These guys have – these brothers have done this before a couple of times, right.

Jeff Jarvis What’s crazy they all auditioned multiple actresses for this role.

Leo Laporte They wanted a girl next door.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah. They got her.

Denise Howell Well, and they hit on something that’s a theme of your book, that anybody could do this.

Leo Laporte Yes.

Jeff Jarvis Watch out Spencers of the world.

Denise Howell Yes.

Jake Jarvis [indiscernible] (77:30)

Leo Laporte This is the key to virality though is you need to tap into a commonly held emotion preferably several humor, ethos, anger, Tim Street told me this and I think he is absolutely right, this is the key. She does have a twitter, of course, she has a twitter account. She is official Elyse E-L-Y-S-E

Jeff Jarvis What, her page is nothing much.

Leo Laporte And it’s John and Leo Resig at What was there other --

Jeff Jarvis They did a Trump $100,000 – $1,000 tip, or some outrageous number for a tip.

Leo Laporte Oh yeah Donald Trump had a – he tipped, yeah, huge amount on a $20 bill. He’s done this twice now, credit goes to Peter Kafka who writes the MediaMemo, I think it was he who discovered the --

Jeff Jarvis I think he was the first one to say, just simply say wow!

Leo Laporte Yeah this is incredible.

Jeff Jarvis We like it. We know you want to believe it, but --

Leo Laporte And he did a good job. He tracked down and who owned it, he said oh yes, it’s the Resigs. Before that they ran a site called Derober, which features doctored photos of celebrities in their underwear. And it was at Derober where in December 2007 where they had the story about Donald Trump leaving a $10,000 tip on an $82 bill. FOXNews and The Post ran that story. So Peter called him he said – he calls Leo Resig, he says Jenny is a fake, right? Resig says Jenny is very real. This is good. I love the way they handled it.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte He says Jenny is with his brother John at this very moment, the three of them are trying to figure out the best way to identify her and tell her story. Jay Leno wants her on the show. Good Morning America wants her on the show. He says we are not sure how to proceed. We want to be respectful of the girl. Now Peter doesn’t give up, he is a good reporter.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah he is.

Leo Laporte I have to say he really handled this well. He says okay, but you are the same guys who gave us the Donald Trump story that was fake, right? Is this one different? Pause. Good homework. That was a good time. Oh, so this is – so is Jenny’s story real then? This one is to be determined. People are kind of making up their own stories, in other words they hedge and they hedge. Finally he says since Leo won’t tell me the story is real, and the Trump story definitely wasn’t I’ll assume this one is make believe too. “Well, if you want to assume that you can, we have a track record”.

Jeff Jarvis True.

Leo Laporte True. They claim TheCHIVE, theBERRY, theBRIGADE, and theTHROTTLE, their four sites have a monthly audience of 5.6 million uniques. TheCHIVE has 1.3 million uniques according to comScore.

Jeff Jarvis Have you heard of the TheCHIVE before?

Leo Laporte I never heard of it.

Denise Howell I have now. I think that probably was – what was they were after.

Leo Laporte Yep

Jake Jarvis The Onion should buy them.

Denise Howell Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte I don’t know if it’s Onion like or what, but it’s --

Jake Jarvis Sounds like it.

Denise Howell Yeah.

Leo Laporte And of course what we love about the other – there is the secondary story that everybody fell for, including TechCrunch which ran the story and then ¬--

Jeff Jarvis Who should hire Elyse by the way? TechCrunch should.

Leo Laporte They should.

Denise Howell They should.

Leo Laporte That will be smart. They need somebody for TechCrunch TV. I think that would be exactly the right person [indiscernible] (80:45)

Jeff Jarvis [indiscernible] (80:48) Leo. You hire Elyse.

Leo Laporte Maybe I should hire her.

Jeff Jarvis Yeah.

Leo Laporte No I can’t afford her. I could tell you right now she is way out of my league. TechCrunch also ran the story uncovering Elyse’s identity. So to their credit they had both sides of the story. I like it, at TheCHIVE, it’s like The Onion.

Denise Howell The Onion, yes.

Leo Laporte I get it, thank you chat room. Apparently they aren’t Fark a lot. So if were a Fark follower I wouldn’t know.

Jeff Jarvis Ah, okay, well --

Denise Howell TheCHIVE.

Leo Laporte Now we know HPOA, pronounced HOPA, but spelled H-P-O-A, we now know what that means.

Jeff Jarvis Chat room, had anyone ever heard of that before, or was that made up too?

Leo Laporte I think it’s made up.

Jeff Jarvis I’d never heard anyone describe that --

Leo Laporte Alright, if anybody has heard of it in the chat room?

Denise Howell No.

Leo Laporte Chat room, anybody?

Jake Jarvis Before this?

Leo Laporte HPOA? It’s – now the [indiscernible] (81:36) is real though, right?

Denise Howell Yeah.

Jake Jarvis Well apparently the story is not [indiscernible] (81:41)

Leo Laporte Really? There’s more to it?

Denise Howell Really, sliding down the slides --

Jake Jarvis That part, yeah, but people are saying he didn’t get hit in the head and stuff.

Leo Laporte Oh really? He made up the thing about the lady [indiscernible] (81:51)? Most of my chatters say they’ve never heard of HPOA.

Jeff Jarvis See, I think that’s the other part of the story. I think they even made up that.

Leo Laporte Which is good. They made up an acronym.

Jeff Jarvis Which is great.

Leo Laporte Wow.

Jeff Jarvis And the kind of posting it around probably makes it more legitimate I think.

Leo Laporte Alright. Well, I think we’ve gone through all of the possible stories that we could possibly milk. And I am really glad you guys are here. It’s a lot of fun.

Jeff Jarvis It’s – I tell you, folks. It’s wonderful to be in the Cottage. It’s our first time here.

Leo Laporte And I didn’t even serve you any booze or anything.

Jeff Jarvis Well.

Leo Laporte Somebody has [ph] been eating (82:25) my Balvenie though, wait a minute. Wait a minute!

Jeff Jarvis 3D Leo [indiscernible] (82:31)

Leo Laporte Yes, [indiscernible] (82:34) though. Becky Worley says I suffer from male pattern [indiscernible] (82:37) loss. I know. That’s mean. Jeff Jarvis is of course at, which is a must-read blog where he covers stories like these and many more. And I think I’ve always enjoyed reading it, really like the long-form take you do on these things. I know it probably doesn’t seem like long form to you as a real journalist, but for a blog it’s long form. What are you – 1,000 words usually or --

Jeff Jarvis About that, yeah.

Leo Laporte Yeah.

Jeff Jarvis Depends on how mad I get.

Leo Laporte I love it.

Denise Howell It’s a column.

Leo Laporte Most recently, Internet, schminternet, that’s the one where he talks about the Google-Verizon deal. His book What Would Google Do? is available on book stores everywhere. Look for the new one, Public Parts. He’s working on it right now, even as we speak.

Denise Howell Is Howard Stern going to blurb it for you?

Jeff Jarvis That will be nice. That will be nice. He is in it already.

Denise Howell Okay.

Leo Laporte It’s a play on Howard’s book, Private Parts obviously.

Denise Howell Right.

Leo Laporte Yeah. And you’re going to be at the IIP?

Jeff Jarvis PII 2010 in Seattle.

Leo Laporte PII in Seattle.

Jeff Jarvis Talking about privacy in public.

Leo Laporte Next week! Next week, Jake will be in college.

Jake Jarvis Yup.

Leo Laporte Congratulations.

Denise Howell Yay!

Jake Jarvis Thank you.

Leo Laporte Working hard, studying hard, at where again.

Jake Jarvis University of Rochester.

Leo Laporte University of Rochester [indiscernible] (83:45).

Jake Jarvis That’s right, yup.

Leo Laporte [Indiscernible] (83:46) catch you two together.

Jake Jarvis Yeah.

Denise Howell What’s the mascot?

Jake Jarvis Bumble Bee or – Yellowjacket.

Leo Laporte You better get that right.

Jake Jarvis [Indiscernible] (83:55).

Leo Laporte You better get that – yeah, it’s the same with [indiscernible] (82:56) school it’s like – I don’t even know if they have – they must have a mascot but I don’t --

Jake Jarvis I am sure they would

Jeff Jarvis The chess team?

Leo Laporte The chess team, exactly, Jake, thanks for being here, And of course, it’s so nice to have Denise Howell in the studio. We very, very rarely get to see her. She is usually at home where she hosts this WEEK in LAW every Friday at --

Denise Howell 11

Leo Laporte 11 AM Pacific

Denise Howell Yes

Leo Laporte 2 PM Eastern Time on Her blog is but she also writes the Lawgarithms blog. Lag – Lawg – get it Lawg --

Denise Howell Lawgarithms, yes.

Leo Laporte Lawgarithms blog on ZDNet. Thank you, all, for being here. This show is live every Sunday afternoon at 3 PM Pacific, 6 PM Eastern, 2200 UTC at We do everything – almost everything we do on TWiT is available live on the channel and then packaged up for your consumption later should you want to listen after the fact, you can go to the website, to find the shows.

We do it daily, if you like tech news daily, wonderful daily tech news show with Tom Merritt formerly of CNET Buzz Out Loud. He does Tech News Today with Becky Worley and Sarah Lane and Hak5's Darren Kitchen, lot of great people. That’s every Monday through Friday at The show – pre-show begins at 2:30 Pacific, 5:30 Eastern time. And of course you can also chat on our chat room. That’s 24/7 now, Thank you for joining us. Anything else I should plug?

Jeff Jarvis this WEEK in GOOGLE.

Leo Laporte Oh, that’s right. Jeff and I do with Gina, the wonderful Gina Trapani, this WEEK in GOOGLE, all about Google, and this week I think we’re going to try to get a Googler on, at least, Kevin Marks, an ex-Googler, and if not [indiscernible] (85:44) as well on Wednesday. We do that show at 1 PM, right?

Jeff Jarvis Yes.

Leo Laporte 1 PM Pacific, 4 PM Eastern.

Denise Howell I’ll be rushing. That will be really interesting.

Leo Laporte Yeah, yeah, it’s fun. And I love this WEEK in LAW. I’ve always – I always wanted to do the show because we talk about legal issues so often with so little regard for the actual truth. It’s nice to have real lawyers talking about it for you.

Jeff Jarvis What’s great about the Internet and the whole TWiT network is you can do a whole show in law which you couldn’t have done in the old world.

Leo Laporte Yes, well, for me, this whole thing is a reaction to mainstream media, which I labored [ph] into vineyards (86:15) of 6 minute segments for 20 years. So, so nice – that’s why the show is so long because I just can’t stop.

Denise Howell Yeah, and I love the opportunity to just surface people like Corynne McSherry from EFF who was on our last show.

Leo Laporte Oh, she is great.

Denise Howell We get wonderful law professors to come join us and you just don’t get access to these people in your daily life. So it’s nice for us, nice for [indiscernible] (86:33).

Leo Laporte Yeah, it’s really great. Thank you, Denise. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Jake. Thank you all for being here. We’ll see you next time. Another TWiT is in the can.

Oh, I forgot to play the video, the Fiesta video, darnation. We had a guy. I should find it. It’s pretty [ph] funny (86:50). The guy sent us an email – a YouTube video.


Visit Pods in Print for bespoke transcription services.