TWiT 287/Transcript

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Tom Merritt This is TWiT, Episode 287 recorded February 6th, 2011; Finckenstein's Monster.

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It’s time for TWiT, this WEEK in TECH, and I am not Leo Laporte, Leo Laporte is hanging with the penguins, he’s on a three-week cruise – it’s a geek cruise, right? And they’re headed to Antarctica so we actually got to say Leo’s out to see – and mean it literally. I will be filling in for him on TWiT for the next three weeks as well as on a few of the other shows and we got a great panel joining us today. Patrick Norton, host of Tekzilla, at Revision3 and of course long time original TWiT man.

Patrick Norton Original.

Tom Merritt OT.

Patrick Norton That’s – yeah, old school TWiT member.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Patrick Norton Actually I’m probably the least interesting person on today’s panel by far.

Tom Merritt I don’t know about that but we do have really – some really interesting folks. Also joining us Harry McCracken, editor of Technologizer. He also writes for TIME, TIME Magazine, right?

Patrick Norton Hey tom. That’s right, the magazine in

Tom Merritt Excellent. Great to have you here as well Harry. And joining us because there is some news that Danny helped spread around, Danny Sullivan, editor-in-chief of, great to have you on the show…

Danny Sullivan Thanks.

Tom Merritt …especially the news this week about Google and Bing.

Danny Sullivan Sure, looking forward to the show.

Tom Merritt All right. Let’s get right into it. I want to start off just looking at the week ahead because we’ve got a [ph] variable (2:52) avalanche of announcements next week, there is – or big events, something happening every day. Monday, did you guys see this, did you get the invite from Sprint, they promised an industry-first and they’re also bringing David Blaine on stage.

Danny Sullivan I’ll be the first right there.

Tom Merritt Well – well there you go. CEO, Dan Hesse, of Sprint will be joining David Blaine. What could they possibly have on Monday that would be an industry-first? Any guesses? Not a one. It’s not an iPhone because…

Harry McCracken It might be a 4G device of some sort.

Patrick Norton I was going to say a 4G devise with more than two hours battery life not that I’m bitter about my Overdrive modem and its overheating issues. But – yeah Android on the tablet – secret Sprint tablet, they didn’t mention at CES.

Tom Merritt Galaxy Tab – I mean I really wouldn’t – I got to figure that this industry-first is going to be a technicality, industry-first. It’s not – it’s going to – we’re not going to get blown away, are we?

Patrick Norton If there – if we are going to get blown away, they wouldn’t need David Blaine. I mean the whole idea is like we’ve got something mind but it’s going to change mobile communications forever and we got this jackass who is going to [ph] [indiscernible] gadget, say, sitting (04:17) nice water with flesh-rending animals for 45-minutes. It’s not like Hesse doesn’t know how to give a good press conference; I mean he’s not Steve Jobs because nobody is. So if they actually need a giant scary magician on stage to spice things up, I’m a little confused and possibly bored already.

Tom Merritt Harry, do you have any insight as to what this might be?

Harry McCracken Yeah, if we’re blown away or really be blown away because we’re not sure what it is, so my guess is, there is something relatively mundane or something completely out of the blue and probably the former.

Tom Merritt Much more exciting probably will be Julian Assange’s extradition hearing which is set to begin Monday and Tuesday. I’m sure C-SPAN will give you live wall-to-wall coverage or somebody will. But this is where they’re trying to extradite him to Sweden to face the charges on sexual harassment, sexual assault charges over there really doesn’t have anything to do with WikiLeaks but it’s the reason he’s been under house arrest because he’s – Sweden wants him to be pulled over. And a lot of people think if he gets extradited to Sweden, it’ll be easy for the United States to get Sweden extradite him to the United States to face charges on WikiLeaks. So this whole thing is about to start heating back up.

Danny Sullivan Which is really stupid by the way because if the U.S wants to extradite him, they can get him out of the U.K. quite easily, there’s any number of people who are upset that it’s very easy to extradite from the U.K. to the U.S. So there’s a lots of conspiracies going on but the idea that the U.S. needs to get him to Sweden to then get him out to the U.S., they could just do it straight through the U.K., they don’t need to go through Scandinavia’s part of this.

Tom Merritt Probably the least exciting announcement coming is on Tuesday. Dell just picked a bad week, they’ve got a Dell Means Business event in San Francisco and it’s my guess did it’s some sort of business enterprise related stuff but it’s not going to be exiting for the consumer.

Patrick Norton Well they did have a 10-inch tablet they held up at Dell CES presentation, literally for almost 30 seconds at the waste of the CEO, all the way up on stage, and basically said they’ll be talking more about later in the year. So could be the 10-inch tablet they were showing off there and then after that it’s like business usually means server and long term, sort of, not changing a lot of desktops, so.

Tom Merritt Wednesday is the one – oh go ahead. Okay, Wednesday is HP planning a webOS event. I’m actually excited about this, we’re going to see tablets; we’re going to see probably some new phones, right? Harry?

Harry McCracken I extremely hope so, I am going to be there and I’m going to be live blogging that and even that we know it’s webOS, it seems like there’s a lot we don’t know like how many products, there were rumors before that nothing might show up until September which seems unlikely and then HP kind of said don’t believe everything you saw out there. So I think given that we know the general topic, I mean, there’s still a lot of unknowns. And I’m kind of eager to see a tablet operating system that’s not from Apple, and that’s not from Google and there is should be room for at least one more good product and HP [ph] has as good as charm as anybody (7:37).

Tom Merritt Can HP make any headway against Apple? I mean I guess it’s a question of anybody can. But a lot of people think the Motorola XOOM is the best one for this. Can HP revive webOS as a tablet operating system?

Harry McCracken It needs to be revive because the Palm Pre was a really good product which did not get well on them. It’s been – I don’t even know how long it’s been since it was a really a significant upgrade to any device based on that platform. We’re basically at the Pre, and the Pre Plus, and then Pre 2 or whatever it’s called. And the Pixi. So they lost a lot of time and they kind of have to reboot the whole product line. So I’d like to see it happen.

Tom Merritt The rest of this week, we – we’ve got other things to talk about later barring on them. For instance, the Verizon iPhone goes on sale on Thursday. We got some news to talk about regarding that. Friday, Nokia has its capital markets meeting. There’s a lot of rumors about what’s going to happen, what announcement new CEO, Stephen Elop, might make, we’ll talk about that a little while later as well. And then next Sunday, Mobile World Congress kicks off in Barcelona. Samsung has got their big announcements leading up to the beginning of Mobile World Congress later in the week. Anybody going to MWC? Harry, you’re not going out?

Harry McCracken Not this year. I went a couple of years ago and I had fun. And I ate really well. But I’m not going this year.

Tom Merritt They have – they have excellent hamón in Barcelona, let me tell you. My wife is going to Madrid on an unrelated thing – and I’m trying to figure out how I can convince her to smuggle ham out of the country. I mean in today’s immigration environment it’s probably not a wise idea though. I mean I have to just live without it.

All right, let’s get to the – the big news of the week and Danny I’ll let you tell us the most about this but just to set the stage, it started with – for me anyway, I saw your post on Search Engine Land about how Google was claiming Bing was copying search results. And you had a great layout of exactly what was going on and what they found.

Danny Sullivan Sure. So I’ll back up a bit more, we’ve had this whole thing heating up over the past month now where Google, in particular, it’s relevancy results have come under attack. And a number of people have written articles since the beginning of the year. We had one that came up in – somewhere around middle of January, I think it’s January 12 and I got a call from Google saying, hey we really want you to come in and talk more about relevancy issues or whatever. So I said okay, right. Set up a time to come in at the end of January, this was the – I think the 28th is when I went in, so it’s just like two Fridays ago. Go in have a bunch of meetings, I – usually if I am off to Google meet with a bunch of different product people to understand different things that are going on.

Last meeting of the day, they come in, so we want to talk to you about his thing and they start showing me these results and this testing that they have been doing that is convincing them that Bing is copying all their search results. They had noticed somewhere around the middle of last year that Bing’s results sometimes seem to be very similar to theirs, and candidly similar in some cases. They do a spelling correction that they consider to be really difficult to know that somebody hit types of things in and it should have been another word instead, they would correct it, and then they would see Bing doing the same thing. This got the engineers kind of scratching their head.

Then the saw more sort of anecdotal results of this and around about October they noticed a jump in two statistics that made them think that Bing was becoming more Google like. And they noticed that Bing seem to have a higher percentage of results in its first page that matched Google’s results. And they also noticed that there was a higher percentage of the number one results that were matching on Bing, that were also matching on Google.

So Google which is, I think, always had kind of a very low opinion of Microsoft have used them as – this evil empire they’ve got a fight against started thinking, wow, they actually somehow mining our search results. And – in particular they’re doing it using Internet Explorer, using things like the Bing toolbar, using the Suggested Sites feature that will send the information back. So they set up a sting operation, started like…

Tom Merritt I know this is – this is like some kind of movie set sort of tail. I can’t wait for the made for YouTube video of this.

Danny Sullivan It’s funny because I’ve taken [ph] heat in some (12:04) quarters – well how could you tell the story or how you can do this by Google, I was like “I’m sorry”. One of the world’s biggest technology operations, like, sets up a Hollywood style sting operation that was just like a great story regardless of whatever happens. Right? So they set up this sting operation where they get a 100 searches that don’t really exist in nature, very unusual words that nobody searches on, they don’t bring up any results or really poor results. And then they alter their search code, so that for the first time they say, they could now manually put a website at the top of these results.

Tom Merritt They spike to their results?

Danny Sullivan They spike their results for these really 100 unusual queries and they do this in the middle of December, they send these engineers hover in Google with Internet Explorer and they say go through, do this search on Google click on the top result and we’ll see what happens. They do this and two weeks later, nine of the queries on Bing start generating the same result as Google has. So it’s – it’s pretty clear Bing got that information by watching someone who was searching on Google, the Google engineers in this case, and had their results appearing that way. To Google this was a clear case that Bing was copying their information.

So I went back to Bing, I talked to them on Friday, on Monday morning I said to Bing like Google is saying this stuff, let’s talk about it. Bing had their big event on Tuesday this – I can’t remember what it’s called like Farsight 2011.

Tom Merritt Yeah, Farsight 2011.

Danny Sullivan Exactly.

Tom Merritt Matt Cutts from Google and Harry Shum were scheduled to be on stage together.

Danny Sullivan Right. And so, Bing knew this was coming up – I mean Google knew this was coming up and they we’re going to want to talk about it at that thing anyway so I’m like, okay, you guys want to tell me the story, all right, I’ll write it up, that’s interesting. I want to see what Bing has to say with it. And Bing’s response was basically, yeah, we do get information in the way that Google suggesting, we get information from a lot of sources and we want to talk about more – just talk about it more after Tuesday’s event is over. So I’m like, okay write up what I could tell of it trying to explain what Bing is saying. Spent a lot of time I thought mentioning that from what you can see it’s not that Bing’s result are an identical copy of Google’s, but then in some of these very unusual cases, some of this work that Google’s doing is going to cause Bing to be doing the same thing. And that’s the crux of what Google feels is unfair. They think that they worked really hard in these particularly niche areas and that Bing’s results will improve.

So the event happens and – the story went out, the event happens and the proverbial [Beep] hitting the fan everywhere. And Bing’s response came back, and I did a follow-up article that ran on this Friday was really we gathered information from all over the web that our users are going to, Google is part of that. Sure, we get a signal of what people are searching on Google but that’s not the only thing that we see, we see it from other places, we’re not specifically targeting Google. And these are really outlier cases.

And in fact you can take Google’s own test and flip it around because they ran 100 queries and only nine of them. In a worst case scenario, the worst case that you could pick where the only signal, if you will, was coming from Google was flowing in and in most of the cases Bing didn’t use it. So they’re split apart. Google feels like basically Bing is cherry picking their best stuff. Bing’s response is, we hardly use this search signal from across the web, it’s really, really minor. There is nothing wrong looking what our users are doing, when they are using our browser and improving search results and in fact we think that you do the same thing as well Google. And that’s where the standoff remains.

Tom Merritt And there’s been plenty of aftershocks from Microsoft all week – in reaction. I mean they are sniping at each other in the press essentially where Microsoft is trying to reiterate “we do not copy these results”, which I find both sides of this very odd from a public relations standpoint, don’t you? I mean, first of all, why does Google want to make such a big deal about this? It almost gives Bing more publicity than it hurts them.

Danny Sullivan Well, there is a lot of people who, I think, are over reading some of the PR. There is definitely PR; both companies are putting spins on this. But to me the fundamental thing is that, on the Google side, you have engineers that feel like something fundamentally unfair is happening that they’re really upset about, they feel like they’ve worked very, very hard on this stuff and then that Bing is doing something that’s just wrong and unethical or just unfair.

Patrick Norton So basically they feel liked they worked at Overture.

Danny Sullivan I suppose you could say the same sort of thing. Well that – that’s sort of some of the irony. I mean the reference is, well, Google just copied Overture’s paid ads and Google copies everything.

Patrick Norton Right.

Danny Sullivan And, in fact, Google’s entire business model is arguably based on copying stuff from all over the place and making it easier for people to locate things. But they – I don’t think the Google engineers are looking that far into it. Right?

I think the Google engineers were upset versus saying, we think this is so unfair and we have this evidence. And I keep likening it as if they walked into the UN of the web and they said we have found the Bing missile sites, and we need your support. And they didn’t get it because some people actually looking at what’s Bing’s doing and think well that’s kind of reasonable. And some people just have a lot of hostility towards Google and it’s exactly that. Well you’re find copying everybody, who cares if they do it; it doesn’t seem like it’s mattering that much.

And on the Bing side you have the same degree of engineers that have actually worked very hard to improve their search results, who are not happy at all over the idea that Google wants to suggest that, well, they just doing it because they copy Google.

Tom Merritt Is this an indication of the way a Larry Page run – the Larry Page-led Google is apps to react allowing the engineers to have their head and raise these sorts of things, is this something where – I mean I know Eric Schmidt has – is still a CEO for a couple other weeks, but is this something that he might have tried to put a damper on.

Danny Sullivan No. I don’t think that any of the topic [ph] Zacks (18:24). I don’t – if Larry was fully in charge right now, I don’t know that this would have made a difference. I think that Google looked this sort of thing in general and was reacting to the engineers. I just – I don’t see it as, well, this is because Page was there because he is not there.

The best example you can see is if you go back to around 2005 when Yahoo! announced that, for the first time, they had a web page index that was bigger than Google. And Google went nuts. They like lost their minds. And spent the next month trying to dispute all the Yahoo! stats, they’re not bigger than us and we got to talk to these people, we need to explain more about that. And in the end it just kind of ended in a stalemate where Google said, well, we are bigger but we’re not going to put numbers up anymore.

Tom Merritt So in a way what you‘re saying is Google is less concerned with PR and more concerned with just being right?

Danny Sullivan Yeah. And the problem is that – they, I think, believe so firmly that they are right that they forget that not everybody is going to agree with that.

Tom Merritt Who care?

Danny Sullivan Who care? Yeah, in this case, they don’t really care that much, it doesn’t – wasn’t this sort of big convincing case. I mean it’s been interesting watching the reaction because there have been some people who are clearly [indiscernible] (19:39) and I suspected this and now I think you’re spying on us etcetera, etcetera. But as the wholehearted people who just don’t have any sympathy from what Google saying and that they took a hit on this as well. And it certainly did not go the way that, I think, Google thought it was going to go which was, okay, we’ve got the coalition of everybody. We’re going up against it, it’s like they’ve got a coalition of kind of Google.

Tom Merritt Yeah, a coalition of the willing to be assimilated by Google.

Danny Sullivan Right.

Patrick Norton Hey, Danny, to be super [ph] mocky villain [indiscernible] (20:10) about this, do you think part of Google’s [indiscernible] (20:13) on and on about Bing’s copying our search results. Could that have been in part because of the battle they are in right now with the content firms in trying to bring up the quality of search?

Danny Sullivan I mean that’s been – that’s been one of the things that have gone around it. Well, they are doing this whole thing to distract from the fact that that, hey, everybody says the results [indiscernible] (20:31). So, in a – possibly, I mean it certainly is distracting from that argument. Those arguments will come back but to concoct all of this, they would have had to know and first of all that was all going to explode in January, right?

Tom Merritt And they started doing this test pages in December, right?

Danny Sullivan Right. You know – so, maybe they had a hint that that was going to happen. So they got all the stuff together. May be they are lying about the timing and then they were also looking some of the stuff back in October when relatively you people were talking. But we’ve had a real frenzy over the past month. Now, they could have sat on it even longer but I just haven’t seen the timing as this is what they are doing. What I will say is that I think they are reacting to some of the people suggesting as our article did that the results are not that different. And I think this was them kind of throwing the and [indiscernible] (21:27) saying, all right, you think the results aren’t that different, maybe there’s something to do with the fact that they just copying us.

That’s I think their reaction was, if we – why don’t start talking about relevancy and who’s better who’s worse and then we need to fill you in on some things that we haven’t talked about before. I hope we do get back to the relevancy issues, I think that both Bing and Google have challenges that they are going at. And this has distracted from that but I don’t think it’s going to make that go away.

Tom Merritt I think it’s interesting because they are trying to say – they are playing a little bit of a political game here saying they are copying search results. And that’s not even actually what Google is accusing them of. They are accusing them of using Google search results to improve their own. And I don’t necessarily think that’s such a bad thing. I mean, if you can use your algorithm in a way to look at what other behaviors, other websites are doing. Is that unethical? I mean because a lot of the early conversation about this was like it’s unethical for them to do that. But isn’t that what every search engine does? It goes out and it indexes the web.

Danny Sullivan Well, that’s, that’s, that’s part of the whole argument that’s going on. And Bing’s argument is, this is an important signal and why wouldn’t we be using it. And the fact that my original article I said it was very clever. Why wouldn’t you do that if you could use this information? I suppose the reasons why you might not want to do it that you might think perhaps unethical is that, first of all Google – Bing has said that there is a search signal that they gather from across the web. And Google is going to be the heaviest component to that search signal. They kind of drowning it out, you know the other stuff that’s going on, potentially searches on Amazon and mix then there an eBay and so on. I think that you got two other things that happened that in these very isolated cases where Google has actually come up with a great spelling correction that produce better results.

It’s not really the user behavior that’s causing Bing to see that and improve on it. It’s not like the user corrected the spelling. All the user effectively does in some of these cases is act as a channel to tell Bing what Google’s doing. You know what? If they didn’t come up with a better way to do the spelling, they just saw that Google did it. So that’s one of those cases, that’s where I probably feel the most sympathy for Google which is okay. You know you say it’s really hard to come up with the spelling corrections and now you can see that Bing is doing the same thing. It’s – it would be the equivalent I suppose of coming up with an interesting blog post idea and writing it and then somebody else comes along and then writes it themselves and doesn’t give you any credit for it. But your Bing’s argument of, we are looking at all these signals from all over the place and that’s what people do on the web and in fact we think Google is doing it as well. That holds a lot of water.

Tom Merritt Is Google better than Bing?

Danny Sullivan We don’t, nobody knows. We don’t know, we don’t have any independent relevancy statistics to tell us this and in fact some of the people who have been arguing over this past month that Google has got worst and everything sucks, they don’t know that. It’s all just – people’s gut feeling. We – I think people are better recognizing when they see the same kind of content firm material showing up but [indiscernible] (24:49) think they are also forgetting that before they did those searches and before all the content parts were there, they probably just got pure spam. There probably wasn’t good answers coming up either, so we don’t really know.

Patrick Norton I actually – one thing, I think quantifying search results is enormously difficult but when I find myself over the course of say six months on stuff like [indiscernible] (25:12) suddenly finding more and more eHow associated content, basically garbage results, nothing personal to anybody who works on their sites, but what I’m looking at an article and literally it looks like something a weak form of AI cobbled together from search results to generate more search results and more internal links. The search results before that and after that if they are not sort of pushed down below the fold they’d still be really, really good but it’s got into the point where it’s like I keep thinking like wow, we really need a button where we can vote up and vote down on the quality of these answers. I know Google doesn’t want a human element in its algorithm other than the creation of the algorithm itself but it seems like there’s always this kind of arms race between people gaming the Google algorithm and the team. I got – I assume that cuts kind of still runs the team, it’s sort of fighting back and forth to find some parity between people gaming the system and the system giving the best possible results. But it just seems like there’s been a lot more noise in the result than there was a year ago or six months ago.

Tom Merritt Which search engine do you all use most of the time? I know everybody probably uses different ones at different times but Harry, what search engine do you use?

Harry McCracken You know I generally use Google and when I go to Bing I find it not to be as good but I kind of wonder whether that’s because I do with Google for so long that my brain has trained itself to think like Google does, so that makes sense. I also know that Google does something which I know Danny has written about which is, without telling you it tweaks the other of the results a lot based on what it knows about when you searched for. So I see sites I go to a lot such as my own site way up high and Google what gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling and I see lots of that with them probably partially because I don’t use Bing as much. So I think the world thinks like Google does which gives Google an advantage right now and I read a lot about this stuff with content firms to be honest if I do searches with an aim of finding that content firm stuff in there, it comes up and I’m just using Google the way I usually do to do searches hasn’t been [indiscernible] (27:32).

Tom Merritt And Dan, I assume you use every search engine that’s out there but is there one that you primarily use or?

Danny Sullivan Oh, yeah. I primarily use Google like most people do. It tends to be what my defaults on. I keep reminding myself that I’m going to change the default every other day just I’m getting more variety but it still works well. I encountered the same kind of problems that people do when they see the noise. It’s especially hard for me when I do searches on Google because I always like in a back-to-back scene in the Matrix when – what’s his name, was [indiscernible] (28:03) and he’s going. He’s got the three screens, it’s all computer code and he goes. I just see blonde, redhead and brunette or whatever.

Tom Merritt Right, yeah.

Danny Sullivan When I look at search results, I’m seeing all the SEO or I’m seeing all the errors even strong – more strongly been a typical person would perhaps look at because I’ll see what maybe influencing or not influencing it. And I would agree I think kind of totally for me that the noise has gotten worst on Google. I don’t know that it’s necessarily better that on Bing. I have seen people talked about well how Blekko is great. And it’s got this great solution and I love like Blekko being there but it’s not hard for me to go to Blekko and come up with really bad results as well. So I think, it’s not and I think that they all have a lot of challenges on what they’re dealing with this new stream of content that’s coming in which is not spam which is what they used to have to fight with. It’s just – and it’s not necessarily bad quality, I mean you get a lot say these eHow things because in the past when you would search in the form of a question or whatever they really didn’t seem to be much content. So now people are becoming very sophisticated about giving something that’s sometimes you just [indiscernible] (29:14) fast food like out there rather than the meal you were perhaps looking for and I think that’s what they’re struggling with now. How do we decide, what’s good quality versus noise and then try to get to the quality up there?

Tom Merritt It is kind of amazing that we’re having a conversation about what the best search engine is. It reminds me – puts me in the mind of the fact that Internet explorer is now what 56% of market share were used to be unthinkable that there would be another browser even a year or two ago the idea that you’d even talk about anything but Google in search engines sort of unthinkable but not only are we talking about Google and Bing, we’re talking about things like Blekko and there’s another one Duck something that I can’t remember.

Harry McCracken DuckDuckGo.

Danny Sullivan DuckDuckGo.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Harry McCracken I saw a billboard for them today which kind of amazed me.

Tom Merritt Is Google threatened even in the tiniest bit, is that why they’re so reactive to this? Do they feel the heat for the first time in their – in what actually makes them all their money which is adds on…

Harry McCracken Right?

Danny Sullivan I think they are…

Harry McCracken Please go ahead.

Danny Sullivan Go ahead.

Harry McCracken We don’t use that.

Danny Sullivan Well, yes they’re probably feeling more heat than they have ever felt before or for a very, very long time. I remember they used to be an underdog so there was heat but from a consumer point of view most consumers don’t really seem to have a problem. We talk a lot about this stuff in the bloggers area or whatever but their market share continues to be very strong. They occasionally have a one point drop here or there and then they come back up and for the most part being really – just seem to be cannibalizing Yahoo! Search traffic.

In terms of Mindshare I think that it’s a much different story, they’ve got a stronger competitor now that they’re facing and they’ve got people who are in the technological space, who are questioning whether or not they really are as superior as they were in the past and they don’t like that.

It’s funny because Google loves to say we’re not big, we’re not a monopoly, people can switch at any time and if they will do it or whatever and in fact it works to their advantage sometime and they’ll highlight that they’re not the biggest search engine or that Bing is coming along because then they can even say that the people in BC and elsewhere, see we have all this competition, you don’t need to regulate us but if you start questioning their technological chops, they don’t like that. That really just brings out the whole, all right we’re going to have to fight back and show you that we really do think we’re the best thing that’s out there.

Tom Merritt That’s sensitive about that.

Danny Sullivan Yeah.

Tom Merritt Harry what were you going to say?

Harry McCracken I was just going to say I think perception is incredibly important that I think about Dell – back in the ‘90s, Dell had an amazing halo as a PC company based on, at least for quite a while having really good tech support and then their tech support got bad and the halo not only disappeared, Dell acquired sort of a negative halo with a lot of people where I think people assumed that if you call Dell for tech support you will get somebody in another country who couldn’t help you and Google for the longest time has had one of the greatest halos there but it wasn’t technology, it’s just in terms of – almost everybody assuming that because it was Google it was good and if I were at Google I’d be really worried about – about the potential for that to crumble because I think it can happen pretty quickly when it does.

Tom Merritt All right. We are going to move on to a few other topics, Google have their Honeycomb announcement with The Daily came out from Rupert Murdoch. I want to thank one of our sponsors, they provide us with over 85,000 downloadable titles in audio form and I find – I’m getting addicted to where I almost don’t want to read a book if it’s not available in audio because it’s so much more convenient, I can do – I can clean the house, I can mow the lawn, actually I don’t mow the lawn but I can walk the dogs. I don’t have enough of a lawn to mow but I can do all kind of things and be reading books, I’ve ploughed through the first four volumes of Stephen King’s Dark Tower just driving back and forth to work and doing chores and jogging and stuff like that so if you’d like to try out Audible, we can give you two free audio books right here on TWiT, go to and the number 2, twit2, and you get two free audio books under their Platinum offer.

I may have recommended just because of our conversation here, John Battelle’s The Search, if you want to learn a little bit about how Google became Google, John Battelle is one of the top experts on this and The Search is a fantastic book. Danny do you have a – do you have a source or a book that you ever recommend to people if they want to get up on search besides reading Search Engine Land of course?

Danny Sullivan Sure. John’s is an excellent book on the origins not just the Google but the whole search base period. One of the best things he did in that book is he didn’t just completely focus on Google; he talked about GoTo which was overture which was the apps type of thing as well. I would really recommend beyond that Ken Auletta’s Googled which came out last year and in some ways it picks up where John’s book left off, because when John’s book ended, Google had turned into this big huge thing and Ken’s book looks at how Google has kind of evolved over that and coped with going into these areas and how they’ve been very disruptive and in being disruptive they have gained a number a people who can hate them out down the way, so those are two excellent books, well [indiscernible] (34:43).

Tom Merritt Ken Auletta, A-U-L-E-T-T-A, is the author of Googled: The End of the World As We Know It. So you can – under the Platinum plan here you could try both of those out or you could get the first two books in The Dark Tower series, either one, try it out. Go to that’s TWiT and then number 2 and we thank Audible for their support. Google actually had another announcement this week that had nothing to do with search, it had to do with Android, Honeycomb was unveiled in a big press event which frankly I felt like it was a little overdoing it but it was very developer focused and I think that was the point was to say hey folks if you want to start developing your apps for a tablet start doing it on Android because this is what Honeycomb is going to be capable of. Harry did you go – did you attend the event?

Harry McCracken I was there and there was not a lot in the way of new news, lot of it was recapping stuff we already knew about and I almost think that’s good because whenever I write about Android I say Google you should stop adding new features to Android until you really focus on the user interface and get at least a little bit with closer to what Apple does and from what I can tell of Honeycomb, I mean the primary focus has been building a good user interface for a tablet and well, I want to get [ph] my hands on time (36:07) with one, but I have seen so far it looks quite good.

Tom Merritt They used the MOTOROLA XOOM to show off Honeycomb which was in announcement in itself that the XOOM could actually do something besides play a video of what Honeycomb would look like someday.

Patrick Norton Well, that was one of the funny things at CES was talking to people from Toshiba and Dell and other places and everybody was like, yeah, Android 3.0, Honeycomb, the only people who have access to it is Motorola. So we’ll see how the new operating system I’m building my hardware for runs when I get to see Android 3.0, which I felt was actually kind of bizarre that Motorola had completely locked down access to this, how they get in through CES and listening to people talking on the show floor about the fact that we don’t have access to Android and or excuse me, we don’t have access to Honeycomb and we’re looking forward to seeing Honeycomb and boy wouldn’t it be nice to start working on apps for Honeycomb, it was – it just seems very strange that they were restricting access to this to a single developer for so long, or a single hardware manufacturer for so long.

Tom Merritt I was convinced that we weren’t going to see the MOTOROLA XOOM because usually at CES when something [indiscernible] (37:19) that locks down and that controlled, it’s vapor hardware, it’s something you don’t end up seeing for a year or more but I…

Harry McCracken We were working last week although I noticed one developer was showing me a – an app which he uses Flash but as XOOM did not have Flash on it so he really couldn’t show off his app and I also [indiscernible] (37:41) the demo machines.

Tom Merritt Ouch.

Harry McCracken You need to rebooted so…

Tom Merritt No, wait a minute, I thought XOOM was supposed to have Flash, thought that was one of its advantages.

Harry McCracken It will but for whatever reason that the unit he had he was trying to demo his Flash enabled app on did not have Flash on it yet, so my sense is there’s still quite a bit of work left to be done in a relatively short amount of time.

Tom Merritt Is the XOOM going to sell well? Any bets on that? How much of a chunk of the marketplace that’ll take?

Harry McCracken I don’t think we know what the price is yet, do we?

Tom Merritt There have been rumors but no we don’t have an official price from it as far as I know, the rumors are $700 or $800 depending on whether it’s Wi-Fi only or not.

Harry McCracken Which sounds really high and I think the price is going to be a huge factor.

Tom Merritt Will you get one Danny?

Danny Sullivan I probably will, just because it’ll be interesting to have for work reasons a Google based tablet. The Galaxy1 is interesting when the Galaxy came out with whatever the Galaxy has, it didn’t feel as compelled but Honeycomb seems like a [audio gap] (38:43- 38:47).

Tom Merritt Oh, we…

Danny Sullivan …of writing it as a business expense, I think that will be one of the main key too is that do I get only a Wi-Fi only version, will that be much less and closer to iPad price if you’re going Wi-Fi or not? And from what I’ve seen of Honeycomb, it sure looks nice, I’m really intrigued to try it with the head-to-head against the iPad.

Tom Merritt There’s a MOTOROLA XOOM ad in the Super Bowl today that takes a little bit of a hit on Apple. They show a lot of people with white ear buds in their ears walking around and looking identically dressed in white coats, but it’s always funny, is they’re spending a lot of money on a Super Bowl ad for a product that doesn’t have a release date or a price yet.

Danny Sullivan Well the rumor is it’s going to come out at the end of February, right?

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Danny Sullivan Yeah but…

Tom Merritt That is the – it’s all rumor at those point.

Patrick Norton Perhaps we’ll find out during the Super Bowl tonight.

Tom Merritt Yeah maybe they’ll – maybe you’ll know by the time you listen to this podcast later this week. Who knows? Alright let’s move along to another tablet item, this one on the iPad, Rupert Murdoch's attempt to bring publishing direct to the tablet with The Daily. The Daily has its own staff dedicated to writing The Daily, so it’s not a print publication that’s being adapted. In fact they have a website, but they are not even publishing to the website. It’s very limited what you get when you go the website. The idea is that you will buy the Daily and you will use it as your newspaper. But it’s only updated once a day maybe with breaking news updated a couple of other times a day. What do you – does anybody – has anybody read it first of all, I mean I am sure most of you have had a chance to at least take a peek at it.

Danny Sullivan I’ve only read it online. They’re kind of [ph] hack surf (40:38) if you know where to look, you can get to the Daily content. There’s actually a Tumblr blog and takes –

Tom Merritt Oh, yes. Okay.

Danny Sullivan Takes everything and puts it there and –

Tom Merritt Right because you can send the link to someone from within the app which allows them to read the story even if it’s not linked directly from their website. So, somebody just sent emails to themselves of all of the articles and boom, there was the website with all the articles. Although, not everything is there, but 90% of it.

Danny Sullivan But what – when I looked at the stories, there’s been nothing that kind of made me go “oooh.” This is really compelling for me to get. But you know, I got to try it out on the iPad and actually see if it goes but if I got my iPad I usually kind of want to know what’s the latest story and I – this idea that it’s not going to be updated on a regular basis, you know – I don’t know, we’ll see.

Tom Merritt Patrick, is there something you see as good long form journalism that can save the print world?

Patrick Norton Well, it’s not saving the print world, it’s not print, it’s – look, I started out working in newspapers; my favorite thing of all time, I think in some ways was working on magazines. I’m fascinated by this as somebody who reads a lot of magazines still get the Daily newspaper. But it’s bizarre, I mean they do it at $3 million some thing in the middle of the half-time show with the Super Bowl whether it’s an advertisement or –

Tom Merritt Well, yes. Super Bowl is carried on Fox which is owned by Rupert Murdoch this year. So, handy for the Daily.

Patrick Norton Yeah, it’s – I’ve heard they spent $30 million, $300 million. This is a – ridiculous numbers are being tossed around the – they’re talking about 100 pages, 365 days a year and I can almost hear Harry at the other side of Skype going “ oh, dear God”. How many people is it going to take to do that? Even if 25, 30 pages of it is weather and sports scores and SuDoku or Soduko and crossword puzzles were essentially auto-generated content that requires very little manipulation. They’re still talking about filling a huge amount of content. It’s cheap, $40 for a year. So they’ve got that site of it on. I just – Murdoch didn’t do really great with MySpace, I’m waiting for this to sort of grab and get me all excited and it just hasn’t happened.

Tom Merritt Harry, I’ve seen some estimates saying that it’s going to take 400,000 paying subscribers to make the Daily breakeven.

Harry McCracken That’s what Rupert Murdoch is saying, they’re spending like $500,000 million a week.

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Harry McCracken To make it happen. And it’s – I mean, they went out – they hired a bunch of talented journalists, which is not cheap. The thing that confuses me most is most of the other large media companies that have hired a lot of talented people are kind of getting that content out to as many platforms as possible. They’re doing tabloid apps, they’re on the web, they’re doing mobile stuffs, some of them are doing print and the Daily is sort of entirely putting all of its [ph] chaps (43:48) on one platform and well, the content I read is quite good. There is a lot of quite good newspapers style content out there and most of it’s available in more places and at least right now most of it’s available for free.

Tom Merritt When you consider that The New York Times sells 800,000 copies of its print newspaper and we’ve got to – he’s going to get – Rupert Murdoch’s going to get 420,000 subscribers. So, a little over half of that on an iPad out. Now, there’s a lot of people with iPads but there’s a lot more –there’s a lot more people with front porches.

Harry McCracken He’s charging a lot less than The Times does for print.

Tom Merritt Right, sure.

Harry McCracken [indiscernible] (44:28) a week, so, it’s less than one copy –

Tom Merritt $40 a year.

Harry McCracken Of The Times.

Tom Merritt Patrick, you think it’s equally, you think that they can do it?

Patrick Norton Well, I think the bet here is that while they sold 10 million iPads, they haven’t even got to the second version of the iPad yet. So, they’re – do I think they can do it? I think anything can happen. Look at, you know, of an eight grader and his mom managed to at least for a short period of time flies above angry birds. Free games ranking, anything is possible.

Tom Merritt Right.

Patrick Norton I’m just really curious if it’s sustainable because filling 100 pages everyday. They’re essentially creating the sort of newsroom that every newspaper in the country, it’s not the world has been hacking down at for the last five to ten years. And they’re trying to do that for an online publication. It’s literally – it’s the closest thing I can think of it is the launch of – oh, my goodness the [indiscernible] (45:35), the national paper of USA Today.

Tom Merritt USA Today.

Patrick Norton Right, which is like – The New York Times is fundamentally a very narrow – it’s some sort of – it has a very narrow and defined audience for being having as much weight as it does. So, looking at the Daily it’s going to have to be very generic, very broad to get those kinds of numbers. I mean, Murdoch certainly knows how to do that just – I’m a little mind-blown that he’s starting something this big and this expensive.

Tom Merritt Pretty [indiscernible] (46:03), huh?

Patrick Norton Yeah, absolutely. He obviously believes the iPad as a platform. But it’s just kind of a really surprising thing for somebody to be doing a bit within this day and age. Especially as [ph] Henry (46:16) points out, good journalists are not inexpensive, good journalism is not inexpensive to maintain and there were so many sources of good writing on the web for absolutely free and what Murdoch is betting is he can create this experience around the iPad and tailor the application for the iPad that will make it better than reading text on a page. That’s an interesting guess.

Tom Merritt And this is very glossy – I mean they’ve got sort of a cover flow like situation going on. And it does some things really well. It shows you like what is your weather in your local area automatically and it shows you your local sports teams based on your – you know and it brings in Twitter streams. So you get a little bit of up-to-date stuff. But it’s a Daily magazine and I think that’s what really has confused me at the beginning which is the [indiscernible] (47:09) of daily newspaper.

And because that was my first criticism is why hasn’t it got the top stories of the day, why when I open up the first one was telling me last night’s news about Egypt when lots of stuff has happened since then. And a lot of people pointed out, wait a minute, this has got some really high quality long form pieces in it and there’s a market for that and there is a need for that. So, it’s not valueless and I definitely agree with that but it wasn’t what I wanted, it’s not what I expected and I think that’s my question is, is there a marketplace for people who have Tablets. Because it will get off the iPad eventually, it will be available for Android. Is there a market for people without Tablets who want to read sort of a lean back daily New Yorker, Atlantic, the nation sort of experience where it’s like, this isn’t keeping me up-to-date. This is informing me in a more laid back fashion.

Harry McCracken I think there’s a market for people who want to read long form journalism. I just don’t think that long form journalism all comes from one place and the challenge right now really seems to be creating a way from the keep-up on the stuff from a variety of sources which would be the opposite of what Murdoch really wants. Murdoch wants the Daily to be the place you’re always going to get your stuff and you’re always coming there and really things like, I think, Instapaper or some few other [indiscernible](48:33) pulling it in and allowing you to save and allowing you to read things especially if they allow you to find stuff on your phone or on your desktop and they keep it all in sync. That’s ideal – that way you can sit down as they write. I want to look at this sort of thing, maybe I want to see some of the breaking headlines along with it. But that’s all aggregation and to Murdoch aggregation is a sin that’s going to cost him money, that just giving away stuff for people for free. The reality is aggregation doesn’t mean that you have to give away stuff for free, maybe you come up with a way to work with the aggregators, so you’re paying for some of the content or you’re going to get subscriptions because if they know that some of the stuffs they want is from the Daily. Right now, the Daily is a walled garden that has no presence.

I was having fun doing some searches on Google trying to see what I could find or any of these stories. It was one nice story about the impact on Jamaica of tourism and how it reshapes the island in bad ways. Good content that you’re not going to locate very easily. Some of the articles are just completely images, so they are not going to be [indiscernible] (49:44) and they maybe, [[indiscernible] (49:45) from Google but I just – I don’t know that the solution is a complete walled garden. I don’t know what the solution is, you just give it all away either. Serious – how is grand experiment goes, I suppose.

Tom Merritt Yeah, I’ll give him that. It is a grand experiment and introducing an interesting effort to use a medium to its best advantage and that is shown in the sort of that Cover Flow aspect and the 360 degree photos and everything. I don’t see anything revolutionary, they’re taking bits and pieces of things that have been done before but they are putting them together in a very attractive way.

Harry McCracken It’s only fascinating to see just how patient they are and [indiscernible] (50:29) around a year from now, two years from now, three years from now because if it’s not, if they’re not reeling in profits quickly, they probably won’t be.

Tom Merritt All right. It’s going to be all Verizon iPhone news next week, I have a feeling, the Verizon iPhone will be coming out on Thursday, you’ll be able to pre-order on Wednesday if you’re not a Verizon subscriber. We will talk a little more about that and the iPhone wars that are heating up in a minute but we actually have a message from Leo Laporte who is probably on a ship eating caviar and drinking champagne but he was nice enough to leave us this message to thank another one of our sponsors.

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It’s an award winning remote access service from Citrix, you don’t even need any extra hardware, you need GoToMyPC, get it free right now by visiting, you can do it while you’re listening to the show, really, seriously. It won’t take very little time and bandwidth, and then you’re ready. Just do it now for 30 days, that way you’ll be ready for the next time, you don’t want to go to work, you don’t want to sit in traffic, you are on vacation or on a trip. We thank you so much for their support. Now, my friends, back to the TWiT’s, Tom?

Tom Merritt Thank you, Leo. He just wanted to show off that he can do that from a boat. Not just that but the GoToMyPC as well. He can be in our computers right now. Alright, have you seen the latest iPhone commercials? The Verizon’s rolled out their personal computer – there’s been one from Apple that showed the phone side by side and how like – it’s peace and love for everyone. But we’ve got one now from Verizon which definitely is a very exciting – we’ve made the iPhone part of our family thing. It does take a little plug at AT&T and I think we’re going to see an internecine iPhone conflict here. We’re loading it up right now, we’ll play it for you. But nobody seen that yet?

Patrick Norton No, I have not.

Tom Merritt All right, well here’s your chance. Well maybe it will be your chance. Essentially it’s just a lot of dramatic shots of the iPhone with dramatic music playing and then at the end, it’s the Verizon guy. I can hear you now.

Because I think it’s the tagline and also a little dig at AT&T. AT&T has come back at them though with a commercial of their own, touting the fact that on an AT&T iPhone, you can surf the web and talk at the same time. That’s their big comeback against Verizon for anything.

Motorola once into – as we mentioned they’re going to be taken a dig at Apple in the Super Bowl ad. It’s sort of a send-up of the 1984 thing. Verizon is going to also prepare their network for the onslaught. Because the joke is the thing about the iPhone on Verizon is, it now makes calls. Because AT&T is so poor in some parts of the country but Verizon says, they are going to throttle the data speeds of the 5% of their heaviest users for the rest of the billing cycle and the next billing cycle. Is that fair? Is that – I mean, Verizon suppose they can handle all this. But it seems to me in advance of the iPhone coming that they want to make sure that they can handle all of these bandwidth thugs that have come up – going to come along.

Danny Sullivan I …..

Tom Merritt Yeah, go ahead Danny.

Danny Sullivan It’s like – it’s funny I was on Verizon for the longest time that went to the iPhone. Now the only thing that I have with Verizon is my broadband card, but I keep hearing all these things that they seem that they are going to do special for the iPhone people that are going to be coming in where we had apparently unlimited plans, but if you are not on an iPhone you won’t get an unlimited plan. Just pick a policy and go with it. If you want to throttle the heavy usage from certain users, then do that but do it consistently. All this stuff that they’re doing just ahead of the iPhone, it just – I don’t know. It doesn’t leave a good taste in your mouth, I suppose in the end.

Patrick Norton I think – I don’t know. It seems like they’re trying to do a lot to be considered as extremely proactive and ready for the iPhone because they know a lot of people that will leave AT&T for Verizon. And rumors were flooding around whether or not Verizon will offer corporate accounts. They’ve mentioned that they’re going to be offering compensation for kill fees for leaving AT&T to go to Verizon. Whether or not they can do that on a consumer level? Nobody really knows. But they’re talking about basically dealing with the top 5%. When is it – if you use an extraordinary amount of data and fall within the top 5% of Verizon Wireless data users, we may reduce your data throughput speeds periodically for the remainder of your current….

Tom Merritt May.

Patrick Norton …. And immediately-following billing point, current and immediately-following billing cycle to ensure high-quality network performance. Basically you know, our proactive management is designed to ensure that the remaining 95% of data customers aren’t negatively affected by the inordinate data consumption of just a few users; and 5% [ph] big old trunk (58:11) users.

They’re also basically talking about automatic de-resing video, excuse me, I’m sorry not reducing resolution. Implementing optimization and transcoding technologies in our network to transmit data files in a more efficient manner. And it’s like okay, so their package shaping, are they going to detect video and they’re going optimize it. I’m going to put optimize in brackets for your device. I think it’s going to be really interesting.

I think Verizon is panicking – panicking is probably not the right word. I think Verizon’s nervous that if they blow the transition and they are saying like a relatively small number of units, hundred thousand or so handsets are going to come out for the initial roll out on Verizon. And I think they want to make sure things are as stable as possible, especially, because they also have a lot of Android devices coming out and sort of Dogpiling on more data. I think it’s going to be really, really interesting, especially when you’re saying things; while we invest much effort to avoid changing text, image and video files in the compression process and while any change to the file is likely to be indiscernible, the optimization process may minimally the impact the appearance of the file. So I think they’re afraid that they’re going to have the same problem AT&T did which is they just had their network absolutely slammed in the wake of people buying iPhones in large volumes.

Tom Merritt Now the pre-orders for existing Verizon customers happened this past week and by 8 O’clock that night, they stopped taking them. They said we’re sold out.

Patrick Norton Right.

Tom Merritt And they won’t say how many they actually sold, Mike Abramsky of RBC estimates it was less than a hundred thousand but Verizon is trying to imply it’s the biggest selling smartphone that they’ve ever had. You know, over the first weekend of Droid, they sold 100,000. But this was just pre-orders for existing Verizon customers. Starting on this coming Thursday, if you’re a non-Verizon customer, you can reserve or pre-order your iPhone and either go pick it up in a store on – I guess, they’ll start the pre-order on Wednesday and pick it up in a store on Thursday. And I think it’s going to be a zoo. We are actually going to be out there and covering it. We are going to find out. We are sending Sarah Lane, poor thing, at 6:45 AM Pacific Time on Thursday morning to stand in front of the San Francisco flagship store. Do you think she will be alone? Anybody?

Patrick Norton In San Francisco?

Tom Merritt Yeah.

Patrick Norton No. I know a lot of people who have iPhones and the only ones I’ve heard that are immediately like I’m dumping my iPhone on AT&T to go to Verizon are all San Francisco residents. Obviously because…

Tom Merritt Or New Yorkers.

Patrick Norton Well, I haven’t heard from any New Yorkers yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised. And it’s going to be really funny to see whether or not the sort of density of, you know, whether it’s AT&T’s network or whether it’s the incredible density of iPhone users in that area that creates a problem.

Tom Merritt I think it’s going to be huge. I think the fact that pre-orders sold so quickly means we are going to see a lot of people not on Verizon yet switching over to Verizon. But Harry, do you think it can hold up under the strain?

Harry McCracken We’ll see. I think they may be more worried about the first few days than they’re about the long term just because it’s like Disneyland opening up the gates and people flooding in. And once they’re a little more fully dispersed they’re okay. I do wish they were more straightforward about the stuff and it’s just hard to know. And I do feel a little bad for 5% because, like what Patrick says, 5% of Verizon’s entire user base is not an insignificant number of people, And that also when you sold the service you said you didn’t get me a limit on how I could use that. It seems a little shabbier than to be saying that I am using an inordinately large amount or misbehaving.

Tom Merritt Yeah. I paid for that data. Why suddenly? Because I happen to be making good use of it, then can I not use it anymore?

Harry McCracken Yes, and they just told me how much…

Patrick Norton Yeah. I think they’re extremely uptight about tethering and how much that might be abused by end-users, you know, because it’s like you can blow through a data. You download three or four videos off of iTunes, like HD resolution videos, purchased three or four videos at iTunes, you can blow through the data cap at almost any wireless service. Right now, these 3G wireless services like Sprint on the 4G they’re not – they’re not counting your bandwidth at this point, if you can actually get 4G. So I think they’re super panicked about, like Harry said, the initial rollout. I think they’re kind of nervous. They want to sort of tone people down in how vicious they get with using the tethering with their notebooks. I think it’s going to be really interesting to see what happens and how the initial Verizon customers react and whether or not we come to the classic like, you know, if you ask like you get a thousand TechZilla viewers or a thousand TWiT viewers in a room, and it’s like, okay, who thinks Sprint sucks? And like a third of the hands go up. And who thinks Verizon sucks? And a third of the hand goes up. Who thinks T-Mobile sucks? And maybe like eight hands go up. But you know…

Tom Merritt T-Mobile was just rated by JDPowers as having the best customer satisfaction.

Patrick Norton Yes. And I know a lot of people are super happy with T-Mobile. I also know a lot of people they can’t get the devices they want on T-Mobile not as much now as in the past. But you’re also talking about a smaller group of customers by comparison. So, I think it’s going to be, no matter how well Verizon is prepared for this I think it’s going to be an ugly week. I think it will be interesting to see when people start running into the data caps, if they do. It’s the thing that always comes out from Sprint or AT&T or anybody else. It’s like the biggest data consumption is always like 3% of the customers. And 3% of the customers are trying to download like every video on the planet simultaneously and they blow through the caps. But when they say ruining it for everybody, it makes me wonder if their switches are really prepared, the towers are really prepared for the level of data traffic they expect of the new iPhone population.

Tom Merritt Yeah, I think that’s probably why they put in place this policy. And if you read it carefully, they say “we may throttle you if are in the top 5% at times.” So they’re not going to just throttle you down and then you’re stuck on the slow lane for the rest of the month to the next month. What they’re saying is, you know, once you’re in that top 5%, if we start having these problems, we may ratchet you down. It’s in their best interest to only do it when they absolutely have to because the first person that happens to is going to go blog about it and put it on Twitter immediately.

Let’s move on to Nokia-Microsoft rumors. This started last Monday when Adnaan Ahmad of Berenberg Bank in Hamburg, he’s an analyst, said Nokia should partner up with Microsoft. It almost feels like a chill at this point because all week long the stock rose. Everyone talked about what a great idea it was. Stephen Elop is now the CEO of Nokia, he’s from Microsoft. He came over from Microsoft. But there are still some folks saying no, this is not going to happen. There’s not going to be a partnership between Nokia and Microsoft. Mary Jo Foley of ZDNet doesn’t think so. Chris Ziegler over at Engadget says he’s got sources that say, yes, it is going to happen. But we don’t know what form it would take. Most of the speculation is Nokia would put out phones with Windows Phone 7 on them. Are we going to see that, Harry? Are we going to see Nokia expanding the number of operating systems on its phones?

Harry McCracken They basically have to use some operating system they’re not currently using because I don’t think it’s going top cut up unless they use one of the big OSs and the other obvious choice would be Android. But I have no idea whether Windows Phone 7 will show up on Nokia handsets. But I don’t see why they shouldn’t try it. I mean, it would obviously be great news for Microsoft, not so much in the U.S. because Nokia is not a big player here, but in the rest of the world it would clearly be a good thing for Windows Phone 7. And it might give Nokia something that is a little more exciting than the Symbian-based handsets.

Tom Merritt But Nokia is known for the integration of their operating system with their device. If they go to…

Harry McCracken Right.

Tom Merritt …starting doing third parties like Android or Windows Phone 7 then suddenly they’re just another HTC or something like that. And that, I think, for them are harder marketplace to compete in.

Harry McCracken That’s true. But unless they pull something amazing out of their hat, like in the next 90 days, they’ve got to do something other than the strategy that got them to be the player in the first place.

Patrick Norton Right.

Harry McCracken They don’t have to about the entire company on Windows Phone 7 for it to be worth trying, either they could just do a handset or two and try to make it good.

Tom Merritt It’s going to be the marriage of two declining platforms in any case. I mean, a lot of people looked at this and said, “It doesn’t matter if Nokia puts Windows Phone 7 on their phones or not, when nobody is up taking Windows Phone 7 right now.” There is a whole spat last week over this weird data leak that people with Windows Phone 7 have been having because of the way Yahoo! Mail checks its mail. It downloads a lot more data than it needs just to see if there’s a piece of mail there. Microsoft has been very slow to admit there was a problem and what the problem was until researcher Rafael Rivera finally admitted it. I talked to Paul Thurrot on Windows Weekly about it this week and he has a whole explanation of what happened. But the upshot is Microsoft still hasn’t updated Windows Phone 7. It just seems like they’re moving very slowly in this phone operating system which is a very nice operating system. It is not getting any uptake.

Danny Sullivan Do they have to be – they don’t have to be Windows 7 specific, though. They could go Windows 7 and they could go – they could run Android as well. They could be an HTC basically. They could continue to put out phones with their own operating system, too, and basically play all the cards, I suppose.

Tom Merritt Yeah. And there’s a question that if they did partner with Microsoft and Windows Phone 7, Microsoft might actually contribute a little bit to Meego or Symbian to help spruce that operating system, you are right. They wouldn’t have to choose sides. Is that a good thing, though? I mean, would that work for them? I guess they’re grasping at straws right now because they just lost the lead in smartphones. They’re still the number one overall phone maker, but…

Danny Sullivan Well, I mean, if you take the HTC example, you know I don’t know where their finances are or anything, but they seem to be doing just fine and they seem to be doing fine being friends with everybody. They just make the handsets. You want an Android phone you can run on HTC and you can run on any carrier, if you want a Windows 7 Phone, they’re doing that as well. Nokia has got a great brand. I don’t know that people – I think they still do have a great brand. I don’t know that people necessarily think that that brand has to translate into the actual Nokia operating system for mobile being on a Nokia handset. They just might think, “Oh, it’s a Nokia.”

And just be happy to have whatever operating system is on it, so.

Tom Merritt Another question is, is Nokia’s hardware good enough to compete?

Harry McCracken Nokia makes a really nice hardware. I mean, it made a number of phones over the last few years where the software is roughly obsolete, but the device itself has a really nice camera and respectable industrial design. And the one thing that’s lacking is that you don’t really want to use the interface.

Tom Merritt All right, we got a few more stories to get to. Canada is fighting a bandwidth cap rule from their version of the FCC, the CRTC. Viacom is back on Hulu. We’ve run out of IPv4 addresses. We’ll get to that and more as we wrap up.

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How many – did you guys hear about the CRTC bandwidth cap situation this week? It sort of cropped up and then simmered back down all within a week. The CRTC is the FCC of Canada. And Mr. Konrad von Finckenstein is the head of the CRTC. What they did is they put a decision in place that said there are caps on Bell’s offerings to people.

So if you sign up for Bell, you pay – you get 25 gigabytes a month, very small on your monthly account, and then if you want to buy insurance against going over that cap, you can buy it in like couple dollar, you just throw down an extra twoonie a month in Canada, and you get a little – you get 5 more gigabytes, 10 more gigabytes.

They also have something called the vault where you can buy gigabytes against going over a cap without having to pay the monthly insurance. So if you go over your 25 gigabytes in a month that takes it out of the vault, you don’t get charged the over – you don’t get throttled down.

What the CRTC said is, Bell, we require you to open your pipes and sell your service to third-party competitors. And we’re going to allow you to force the third-party competitors to abide by your bandwidth caps, which meant that all the third-party sellers, all the competition now had to offer pretty much exactly the same service that you get from Bell, and in most cases, charge a little more for it.

It limited their competitiveness. Now, this didn’t affect every single Canadian. You can get your service from Cable, Rogers, and Shaw. But they have their own bandwidth caps, usually higher.

There was a huge outcry, huge petition. Stephen Harper, the Prime Minister actually said, CRTC, you need to overturn this or we will overturn it for you in Parliament. And von Finckenstein has said they will take the next 60 days to review this and decide what to do when they are going to take public comment. But they are not going to implement it right away.

So you don’t have to have that bandwidth cap if you are on a third-party. You can go unlimited. But in 60 days, they’ll decide whether they’re actually going to allow it to be implemented or not. Now, obviously, this– none of us are in Canada. So this doesn’t affect us here, but which of you could get by on 25 gigabytes a month.

Harry McCracken Huh, I honestly don’t have a clue. I couldn’t tell you how much I use. I mean this all reminds me a little bit of using CompuServe in about 1991 when I was keenly aware of how much CompuServe I use because I was paying by the hour. I do know I have a Verizon MiFi card for wireless broadband and that I keep tabs on because I have a 5 gigabyte limit. And I basically use that all I want for wireless stuff and I really never even approached going over the limit. But on the other hand, I am not doing all those stuff I do at home where I am streaming all the video I want and downloading all the files I want. So I would love to try metering myself for a while just as a reality check to see where I am in relation to 25 gigabytes.

Patrick Norton It can be really – especially, if you use Netflix or iTunes video in any kind of volume, that 25 gigabyte cap would be absolutely brutal. Yeah, I think we blow through that in my house in about a week and a half.

Harry McCracken It sounds painful with the insurance. And it sounds like a Las Vegas game or something without [indiscernible] (76:20).

Tom Merritt Yeah, right, it’s like you’re playing Blackjack with your gigabytes.

Patrick Norton Yeah, it is so funny it’s like – because it’s like one of those semi-slimy kind of like, hey, we’re going to make sure we don’t charge you over by charging you monthly whether or not you ever go over or not.

So if you’re paranoid and you’re conservative like many Canadians are, I shouldn’t say paranoid, but mostly, you think Canada, you think people are like trying to do the right thing, you think stereotypes, you think foolish thoughts but it’s just – I can also already – probably in the chat room right now, everybody from Australia is going, oh, it sucks, it really sucks. We’ve always had these kind of caps. They suck. Fight, Canada, fight.

It’s just atrocious. And it’s a bizarre regulation to hand down. We’re going to make everybody’s service suck as bad as the people who built the network service. It’s like why? That [indiscernible] (77:16) the kind of thing that lobbyists would put in, for example, like Verizon and AT&T spending $11 million lobbying in Washington D.C. and, miraculously, mobile Internet doesn’t get regulated in our pseudo net neutrality regulations passed by the FCC.

Tom Merritt 80 gigabytes a month under this new plan would cost you $41.45 – I’m sorry, this is 105 gigabytes would cost you $41.45. Previously, the 200 gigabyte cap was what they had as well as unlimited. 200 gigabyte cap was $32 a month. So you get half the gigabytes you were getting under the old plan, but you get to pay $10 more.

Patrick Norton It’s a lot like AT&T when people started downloading video in volume. And AT&T had their technical economist or economist engineers, they had this really bizarre title for them, basically write these really long white papers about, yes, you think we sold you this amount of bandwidth. But we only sold you that bandwidth speed for a few seconds as a time as you downloaded some web pages. We never ever meant for you to actually use all of the bandwidth you think you are already paying for on a monthly basis.

So I think it’s interesting. There is obviously huge interest in United States over net neutrality whether you’re pro or con. I hear a lot of noise that a lot of the major ISPs are all trying to figure out how they can implement tiered or per bit pricing. Whether or not they need to or whether or not they want to because it’ll look good on Wall Street is kind of the real question because the white papers by the technical economists were an absolute joke.

Tom Merritt Well, it’s this kind of false idea that there is only so many bits that we can deliver. That’s not really the way the Internet works.

Patrick Norton Right.

Tom Merritt It’s not like the water company says, look, we’ve only got so much water. We have to conserve because it’s not raining. I mean the bandwidth argument is so obfuscated by this oversimplification of like, ah, but if we don’t limit it to 25 gigabytes, we’ll run out of bits. It’s not the way it works.

Patrick Norton If we don’t limit it to 25 gigabytes, we’ll have to upgrade our infrastructure, and actually deliver on what customers think they have already purchased.

Tom Merritt And that’s where the debate is, right, which is how much is that infrastructure? And what is the incremental cost? And what do you get? It’s not like the company, the telco can only deliver, say, 500,000 gigabytes a month, and if they spend another $1 million, it will be 600,000 gigabytes a month. I mean it’s all about provisioning at the head end in ways that allow bandwidth to get routed correctly. Everybody can get unlimited bandwidth. That doesn’t mean that you’ll have quality of service all the time, it comes and goes. But they want – you want to over, as I understand it, I’m getting out of my depth here but you want to overprovision in order to avoid lag. And I think these telcos are exploiting that in order to make a bunch of money off something that actually doesn’t fix that problem. They just want to charge you more. And we need a network engineer now.

Patrick Norton Well, we also should own up that we make our living on video and obviously unfettered access to bits --

Tom Merritt Oh yeah, not just for us, right?

Patrick Norton Is pretty critical to – I feed my son [ph] Hurling (80:57) a lot and lot and lots and lots and lots of bits on the Internet. So –

Tom Merritt For instance, they do not have Hulu in Canada not because of the bandwidth problem but it could discourage innovation in these areas. They could discourage companies like TWiT and Revision3 from actually getting started and trying things if the telcos were able to put such a vice like grip on the data absolutely. I mean yes, I have a vested interest in this, believe me but I can always go back to [ph] selling in (81:28) books if I have to. Viacom is back on Hulu, The Daily Show is there, Colbert Report is there and some of their other shows will show up 20 days, 21 days after their first airing. Apparently, Viacom is paying $40 million but the bigger part of this story was CEO Jason Kilar going off on his blog when he announced this about how behind the television industry is. And a lot of people feel like he was shooting himself in the foot he might be trying to get fired, a lot of people say no he’s not that’s just the way he is, he believes in this medium and that the internet is going to win and you know he is right. Did you guys see much about this, Harry or did you follow this story?

Harry McCracken I saw that I mean there’s also talk about Hulu maybe essentially having to go to an entirely different business model where it’s a little bit more like Netflix and a little more controlled by the TV industry it’s – I mean Hulu is a fabulous product it’s widely popular and it’s not clear whether the people who own the content are going to allow it to continue in the way it has and I think that that Kilar the CEO is kind of in between a rock and a harder place.

Tom Merritt Yeah his masters are the old media who really --

Harry McCracken Yeah totally.

Tom Merritt Who really started this website in a fit against YouTube and now…

Harry McCracken They open Pandora’s Box and now they want to try to shut it again.

Tom Merritt Yeah, now they don’t know what to do with it.

Danny Sullivan The crazy thing is you know like for me Hulu has become my DVR. And if I were an advertiser awesome because unlike with my actual DVR I can’t skip through the ads, you have to watch them, so I sit there and I watch them simply because I’ve got no choice and yet the ad pricing I think on Hulu they either can’t sell or they’re still selling it under priced what they’re doing in the broadcast which is continuing to die and you just watch these industries and it’s almost laughable where they just can’t transition over and you just know because of all the vested interest that they can’t say alright we need to start selling the online stuff for more we need to dive in more or the online let’s just hold off as long as we can and try to milk the broadcast for as much money as we think they can get out of it.

Tom Merritt You’re exactly right Danny. In fact, some of the off the record responses to Kilar were like oh yeah 80% of us know he’s right but you can’t say that it’s just you know, we’ll get fired.

Danny Sullivan And they’re going to get fired anyway.

Patrick Norton Yeah, and some people – there was at least one blogger or columnist who is saying that the whole point of this blog entry was his attempt to get fired so he can move into sort of a startup or something. But, I mean it’s not like NBC and CBS and ABC aren’t making money and it’s – they are also are still the best in the world, if you want [ph] 50 (84:20) million people to show up simultaneously they still do a better job [ph] of that than (84:24) anybody else. So for the five or six advertisers that spend 25% to 40% of the money on advertising in a given year, the biggest companies, the biggest advertising spenders like literally like 30% or 40% of all advertising is purchased probably by less than 10 companies every year and they’re not really looking for onesy-choosy purchases they’re looking for huge numbers of eyeballs. The NBC, ABC, CBS they still make a huge amount of money off of those advertisers and a lot of other advertisers. So it’s just a mess because it’s the thing we – going back to Rupert Murdoch, I don’t want to trade analog dollars for digital cents, and Hulu is obviously caught between a rock and a hard place. And I think it’s going to be really interesting watching Hulu and Netflix over the next year or two because all of the studios are kind of like we’ve got to reign in Netflix and it’s ridiculous that Stars did the deal with Netflix because Netflix pays – so much of their content come from their Stars deal, they are restricted from doing HD but they do standard definition content. They get a huge number of titles literally for like $0.03 or $0.06 [ph] a head (85:37) versus your local cable company who would pay like $2 or $3 [ph] a head (85:40) for that exact same content. So I think the deals between the studios and the networks and the online venders like Netflix and Hulu, I think it’s going to get really messy and really nasty over the next year or two.

Tom Merritt And that’s what one of the things Kilar said is we’ve got to start paying per view per month for the stuff, which is essentially what the Viacom deal is. Viacom gets paid more than more people watch their stock rather than these flat fees which in Netflix’s case started out as seemingly a good valuation but Netflix grew much faster than everyone thought they would and now it ends up being incredibly cheap.

Danny Sullivan But you’ll also get the [indiscernible] (86:25) I’m not charged per view of what I’m watching on NBC when they broadcast it to the world for free. They want me to watch it, they want my eyeballs. And when you start getting on to the internet, it just starts becoming this completely weird thing as if suddenly I don’t count as a viewer as much or my attention is not worthwhile or just showing the ads isn’t worthwhile enough I need to start paying for them. I mean, I pay over $100 a month for my satellite subscription so I suppose down the line may be I will have if you will an online TV subscription that they could figure out a way that I’m paying it all across to you. But then if I’m going to do that, then don’t keep charging me what I’m paying for the broadcast stuff which I’m basically paying [indiscernible] (87:08) because I get better reception.

Patrick Norton No, you’re paying a small subset of what the broadcast carriage for cable, for direct TV. I mean, I [indiscernible] direct TV (87:18) last time and [indiscernible] (87:21) certain programs we missed and my wife’s kind of really ticked off, like, she’s not seeing the first season of – or the first few episodes of Big Love. And it’s funny HBO’s like, we want like $20 a month or we want Netflix to be charging at least $20 a month for their service and then there’s a real nasty rift in between what the broadcasters, especially somebody like ESPN is used to paying or are being paid for the content on cable or satellite versus what people are willing to pay online. And it’s going to be really interesting. I think ESPN may be the one that sort of leads the way because they do a huge amount of their content on multiple platforms but having sort of the entire HD stream available in a perfect HD set, I mean, it will be fun to watch this battle out over the next year or two. But yeah, I think at some point Hulu, the content partners or the owners really think of Hulu as being a legitimate think and rather than this backdoor business they can kind of hold at arms length

Tom Merritt Let me tell you as Netflix gets bigger and if Hulu gets bigger this conversation will change materially because suddenly it will be too big of a money pot for turn away. Right now they can afford to make it sound like it’s trading analog dollars for digital cents. But this reminds me of when I was in charge of the website at we were not allowed to put more than 10 minutes of video per half hour of our content on the web or it would violate our carriage contracts with the cable companies because they were afraid that if I could watch a posted stamp size video of TechTV shows then no one would pay for cable anymore, which was like that is the least possible. They should have been going exactly the opposite which is like nobody is going to watch video, let them put it on there so that they see the postage stamp and go I really like this. I want to subscribe, I want to get this, and they actually do pay for cable because they want to see it but they did – they go the opposite way. Now when actually you can watch full-size HD video streaming they’re giving you whole shows and saying well but we don’t want to give you whole shows all the time because that might undermine that less than one million viewers on Hulu might undermine our 80 million to 100 million potential viewers on broadcast and cable. It doesn’t make any sense they are afraid of something that actually isn’t threatening until it actually becomes threatening then they’ll all jump on it and monetize it.

Harry McCracken Yeah, I mean it’s weird because there is no question where we are going and it’s going to happen pretty quickly. So they’re essentially trying to march in the direction where the industry is not going to get [indiscernible] (90:14) just took at what happened with music, I don’t see why they can’t figure that out and get ahead of the game rather than straggling behind.

Tom Merritt [indiscernible] (90:20) just pass this long just posted up on enGadget by [indiscernible] (90:28) Andriod is ready to play February 13 at 1800 GMT this is probably going to be a Mobile World Congress announcement. But yes, the Sony Ericsson Xperia Play they finally stopped allowing it to just be leaked all over the place and admit it yeah, this is what it’s called, this is what it looks like, we will announce it on February 13. Have you seen much about the Play? It’s the PlayStation phone is what everyone has been telling me. So it’s got the buttons like you’d have on a PlayStation but it’s a slide out Android phone. And it’ll exist somewhat – it’ll be interesting to see the full details now that it’s going to be official. It’ll exist somewhat in that Sony Universe.

Alright we’re getting close to the end of the show. We’re also getting close to the end of IPV 4. They passed out the last of the numbers. IPV 4 if you don’t know those are the numbers behind things like domain names. So if you type in TWiT.TV there is a number there, I don’t remember what it is, but there is an IP Address and IPV 4 has a smaller address space than IPV 6. We’re trying to transfer everyone over to IPV 6. But that’s going to cause a lot of problems because not all the routers can work that way. Almost no sites are actually delivering themselves as IPV 6 sites and we’ve used up all the IPV 4 numbers. What are we going to do Harry?

Harry McCracken I feel like this is one of the issues I should be worrying about more than I have. I’ve sort of assumed and hoped that the industry would figure it out and I suspect they probably will.

Tom Merritt Yeah, they had a big ceremony where they handed out the last blocks to everybody and said, “Alright, good luck”. There is a plan on June 8, there’s going to be a IPV 6 day and big sites like Google and Facebook are all going to serve their sites as IPV 6 as a way to test out what the issues might be. There is lots of IPV 4 addresses that aren’t being used, they’re just assigned to someone right now and so, there’s a lot of talk about recycling IPV 4 addresses and saving some to translate so that if I’m on a machine that can only IPV 4, IPV 6 could be translated into IPV 4 and this and that. But it is one of those obtuse situations that, like you say, maybe we should be more worried about than we are. But the people I’ve talked to who actually know this stuff say they’ll get it worked out. It won’t be pretty and actually there maybe some bumps along the road where people won’t be able to get to certain websites because the website’s an IPV 6 and they don’t have a machine capable of translating those addresses but --

Harry McCracken I mean for the most part people will, if you have Windows XP, I know you need to do a little re-configuration. But the more modern your software is, the less likely there is going to be a serious issue.

Tom Merritt Alright any other – I got one more story I want to get to. Is there anything you guys have been dying to talk about that we haven’t covered yet or should we just wrap this up? Patrick, you’ve got nothing burning a hole in your skin?

Patrick Norton You know – part of the biggest thing for me over the last week was watching all the back peddling about the internet off switch that really isn’t an internet off switch not like Egypt and don’t forget to re-elect us next election. But, I think it’s a little late in the day to start getting into that one on this particular episode of TWiT.

Tom Merritt Sandy Bridge got a recall, bad chipsets and it is causing problems. ASUS, GIGABYTE, Samsung, few others have said we’ll honor [ph] returns (94:00) if you bought a Sandy Bridge machine. It’s not a problem with the Sandy Bridge processor, it’s with a particular chipset and now Best Buy says they’re going to be delayed in rolling out Sandy Bridge machines on their floor. So it’s just too bad because a lot of people were really excited about Sandy Bridge. The announcement was made right before CES started and it’s hit a big bump here.

Patrick Norton Brian [indiscernible] (94:25) spent a lot of time talking about this on the TWiT, This Week in Computer Hardware, this week. It’s kind of a – on one hand it’s a huge deal for Intel because they have to spend a lot of money replacing a lot of chipsets, or a lot of motherboards effectively in notebooks. If you actually already have a Sandy Bridge device, don’t panic, it’s essentially a potential problem showing up on the 3 gigabit SATA ports on the motherboards, if you’re really paranoid, switch yourself to the 6 gigabit SATA ports, you’ll be fine.

A lot of it’s still being worked out and a lot of what we’re hoping is vendors decide to do, they take your credit card number and they fire out a fresh functional system or motherboard to you and then they release the hold in your credit card or however they want to do it when you send the RMA back on your old motherboard. It’s really messy because it came out of nowhere, Intel verified it over the – they like found out, verified it over the weekend, released it immediately on Monday and it really came out of left field, nothing anyone expected, one of their motherboard partner found it during extensive sort of heat and stress testing. But Intel verified it and immediately said we’ll cover the cost, what that turns out to be if it is going to include shipping or other things, we don’t really know yet. So each of the vendors are kind of working this out and I’m sure they’re all working this out with Intel in how they’re going to cover the [ph] expensiveness (95:51). But, it’s a pretty big slowdown on the rollout of Sandy Bridge.

Tom Merritt I know it not only affects ports 2-5 so --

Patrick Norton Right.

Tom Merritt if you’re only using two SATA ports, port 0 and 1, you’re ok but even if you’re only using 2, shouldn’t you get the working one just in case you need those other ports down the road somewhere?

Patrick Norton Yeah, you will get the working ones unless you bought your Sandy Bridge second hand [indiscernible] (96:15) warranty card, yes you should --

Tom Merritt Black market Sandy Bridge?

Patrick Norton Well, if you contact your vendor whether it’s a big PC vendor or [indiscernible] (96:25) yourself your motherboard vendor. Yes, you do want to replace it, it’s just that the likelihood of any data corruption happening over the 3 gigabit SATA port is relatively minor. Yes, you absolutely do want to eventually replace the motherboard. That’s going to happen over the next few weeks. But it’s – I think it’s a big – Intel’s got the money, they said they’ll cover it, do it, call your vendor, find out how to do it but yeah, you [indiscernible] (96:54) replace your motherboard since it’s very unlikely that very many people are going to be impacted by this we think so --

Tom Merritt We may think. Yeah.

Patrick Norton Yeah.

Tom Merritt Alright, that does it for us. Thanks everybody for watching live on the Super Bowl Sunday. We have lot of – lot more people in the chat room than I expected and thanks to everybody who’s downloading and watching it later as well. I hope your team won, I hope all teams win.

Harry, why don’t they do it like in kids’ soccer, where they just give everybody a trophy? Who cares? Harry McCracken, editor of Technologizer and a contributor to Time magazine and website both. Thank you so much. Let people know where they can find Technologizer and all the other stuff you do on the Internet.

Harry McCracken Check me out at and every Thursday look for my Technologizer column on

Tom Merritt Danny Sullivan, thank you so much for being in here to explain what was going with Google being – I highly recommend going to not just read all the great articles they have there. But, specifically if you’re interested in more about Google Bing, he has a couple of really good writeups that go into detail about what’s happening. Thank you so much for being on the show Danny and let people know more about Search Engine Land and where they can find your stuff on the net.

Danny Sullivan Sure, we’re at and we have information about how the search pattern things that are going on in the search engine industry as well as search marketing advice as well. So hope people enjoy the content if they make it out there. Thanks for having me today, I enjoyed it.

Tom Merritt No problem. Patrick Norton host of TechZilla you can find it, well it’s daily and weekly, right?

Patrick Norton Daily and weekly, Veronica does a daily tip everyday you can find it at and of course we do two weekly shows of Veronica Belmont, Robert Heron and I, and we get hands on and geeky as much as possible with computers and occasionally other technology.

Tom Merritt You can also spy Patrick on This Week in Computer Hardware.

Patrick Norton Yes, right here on the TWiT network.

Tom Merritt I’m Tom Merritt, host of Tech News today which you can find daily at 5:30 eastern, 2:30 pacific right here on TWiT. I’ll be filling in for Leo Laporte on This Week in Tech, not only today as you already know, but the next two weeks as well until he gets back from his trip to Antarctica.

Thanks everybody for watching. In that can is another TWiT.

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